TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Bob Owens]

Bob, the word on the floor here at AFW is that Tulsa's local paid for the title 2 and the fleet service clerks to fly in for the negotiations, and picked up all their expenses and lost time, just to rig the vote. Can you give any insight on this without getting yourself in trouble?

I have no idea who paid for the Retired Fleet service clerk President from BNA or the Fleet Service Clerk President from DTW (whose station is closing soon) to be there but they usually are not seen in M&R Negotiations unless there's a vote coming up.

 

[TWU informer]

Why so hell bent on not letting Horton an crew pick our pockets but somehow you're ok with Parker's crew doing it? I think the AA guys deserve it more than the US guys. The AA guys have put a hell of lot more effort into it. Just think if the AA guys put as much effort into running the airline as they have persuing this BK? We probably wouldn't be in BK. I see the US guys kind of like I see the AMP and AMFA guys. You know, just kind of lurking around for crap to hit the fan and trying to slide in there when the opportunity presents itself. Simular to the old cliche of the guy running off the with his best friends wife after finding out the couple has been having marital problems. Real top notch

While you are busy mud slinging, remember this fact.
Since the AFL-CIO merger in 1955, the Industrial Unions have represented the MAJORITY of the Mechanic and Related Craft and Class. And this profession is taking it on the chin as bad as worse than any other profession in the country.

Concessions for jobs, has done nothing to protect the profession and instead, due to the dumbing down of the skill levels due to the reduce payscales, that has caused more rejected work, and scrapped parts, the idea has actually destroyed the once proud profession as far as overhaul work goes. The only thing left is the line AMT and now we are working on destroying that part of the profession too.

We need a change.

Not just a change of Union, but a change of overall direction for the profession, organized labor, and the middle class in general.

Taking the same damn action over and over expecting a different result is sure not correct path to be taking.

 

[Bob Owens]

So Bob you are saying jobs are going away if we get the 787 or the Airbus? So do we roll over? We have always worked on anything we fly. Why would we even think outside that. That should be a non starter. We need to make sure this current money grab by management results in the lowest possible return to them. A merger needs to happen forced by the creditors.

I seem to recall the 747SP going to TWA and those 727s going to Delta, lets not forget the 757s that recently went to TIMCO. I'm not saying roll over, I'm saying the opposite, fight for those that are here, but dont agree to lower wages so they can hire people down the road.

 

[Overspeed]

How will you recover from voting YES? You are agreeing to being at the bottom of the industry for at least six more years. Even if they abrogate, which is not definite, they still have to negotiate. Look if we say NO and the Pilots accept this you can be sure of one thing, another ballott will go out before August 15th, and if the TWU has one out and it takes a few days past Aug 15th who cares?

Lets say the Pilots Vote NO, the Flight Attendants have already said NO, if the mechanics vote no how likely is it that the Judge will abrogate? I say its very unlikely, Why? Because for one thing the company has not shown a need for the cuts, their plan would make them profitable without the cuts. For another its one thing to abrogate the contract of a lone workgroup after all the others have accepted concessions than it is to abrogate the Contracts of the three seperate work groups that are the harder to replace. The three groups that could stop the airline cold.

Lot of "What-if's" Bob. What if the FAA lifts the ban on new 145 certificates? What if Romney gets elected and becomes the Outsourcer in Chief? What if the Krugman is right and we are about to enter in to a deeper recession? What if...?

 

[TWU informer]

The language is not 35% of aircraft work, it is maintenance spend. If AA spends $2B they can outsource $700M. Since AA has stated they will grow the fleet over the coming years that should offset part of the new job loss associated with new fleet types. NW had the oldest fleet age in the industry prior to BK. What new aircraft came pouring in after AMFA negotiated a cap? The TWU scope language has held up until now. I would say it has been tested and solid up to this point.

As far as headcount in TUL, based on the planned work reallocation and base closure in AFW the total job loss for M&R has been stated as approximately 2,500. That being said the future headcount that receives the wage adjustment to average should be current headcount minus 2,500. There should be some adjustments based on future fleet types but that should be offset somewhat by fleet growth.

I cannot, nor can anyone else for that matter see in to the future. Guarantees on headcount? I don't have enough info to do that.

You could have given me a number that was not based on "shoulds" "woulds" and "coulds" when there was a job security clause with a date of hire attached to it.

That 2500 headcount hit is just the beginning. Are you really that ignorant? Or are you purposely creating a deceptive non answer to my question.

If AA has new aircraft the maintenace spend on those is zero, so the 35% comes from the spend on what is left of the older fleet. Which the more that shrinks the more job are gone.
Again, this is same trap that AMFA ran into at Northwest Airlines and now you are the cheerleader for a yes vote on the same bait, trap, and decimate plan of the Tulsa overhaul base.

You have no answer, but you are too proud to admit because you fear the no vote.

 

[TWU informer]

Lot of "What-if's" Bob. What if the FAA lifts the ban on new 145 certificates? What if Romney gets elected and becomes the Outsourcer in Chief? What if the Krugman is right and we are about to enter in to a deeper recession? What if...?

You surely are not going to resort to your Republican bashing now because you cannot answer a single specific question regarding any benefit associated with a yes vote on this T/A? How damn pathetic is that?

So you can bash AMFA, you can bash Dave, you can bash Owens, you can bash Romney.

But when asked specific questions about any benefit to voting yes, you just use should, would, and could, be a good idea?

 

[Overspeed]

I seem to recall the 747SP going to TWA and those 727s going to Delta, lets not forget the 757s that recently went to TIMCO. I'm not saying roll over, I'm saying the opposite, fight for those that are here, but dont agree to lower wages so they can hire people down the road.

Two 747SP's? AA was supposed to buy tooling, equipment, and parts for two airplanes? How many 727s went outside and there was a work swap for that deal. The 757s that went to TIMCO is being arbitrated, let's see what happens Bob.

So let's vote no, judge abrogates, and AA implements the 3/22 term sheet and 4,000 jobs are lost while we try to get the NMB to set a date for negotiations. Great plan Bob, great plan.

 

[Raptorman49]

Neither is Informer but it doesn't seem to matter. Why don't you try the PM feature for comments like that. Makes AA look a bit more Professional.

I agree no worries AC Tynker I hit the report button, doesn't matter that he wasn't insulting me, I suspect Votilon won't we with us much longer if he can't be civil. B)
yes Vortilon I ratted you out, first time but I'm sure not to be the last.

 

[Raptorman49]

NYer,

I would say the way to "get without moving back further?" is to have people that are directly tide to the contracts that are brought back for a membership vote. Having accountability and transparency in a craft union will help our profession. It's as easy as that. The fear and doom lovers like hss, anamoly, etc. like to insinuate that AMFA can't do all this though they prefer to promote an industrial union that does not have accountability and transpaency and has prooven to be a great harm to our craft & profession.

No supporter of AMFA, myself included, has ever claimed that AMFA will undo the stain the twu has caused on our craft & class at AA over night. But at least with AMFA we have an opportunity to support a democratic, craft union that supports us because WE are the union.

GO AMFA!

Ken I really enjoy how your post's are professional you don't seem to have any trouble making your point without attempting to cyber bully anyone, insult people etc. that's the trait of an Intelligent person, people who lack intelligence have to resort to name calling to make up for their inadequacies, it's to bad we can't use our real names on here for fear of reprisal from the company because I suspect if people were using their real names instead of behind an alias they wouldn't shoot their mouths off so much.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob your argument is flawed right from the first sentence. UA mechanics now make more than AA AMTs because 1) smart people like you recommended voting against the July 2010 TA and 2) it took them over nine years AFTER BK in 2003 to finally get past us.

Wrong again. United was ahead of us in 2003. They didnt agree to go below us till 2005 in wages but kept a lot of stuff that we gave up.

You are comparing UA's current wages that were negotiated in a post BK environment to AA's first BK contract.

Funny but most people who work under the deal consider 2003 to be the first BK contract. We gave up more outside of BK than they did in BK.

Why not compare apples to apples? Why because your argument us shredded. UA mechanics got slammed in BK with an 1113e motion that immediately brought on pay and benefit cuts totaling almost 20%.

In december of 2002 UAL was making more than we were, yes the court, through an 1113e granted the company a 14% paycut, they came to a TA that knocked it down to 13% then two weeks later we agreed to concessions outside of BK in excess of 25%. We cut their balls off.

Does our agreement have that? Yes benefits are getting hammered but has any airline in BK ever kept their existing benefits? No. Will some how AA become the first? Doubtful. The APA has stated that Judge Lane will not write a contract but will simply abrogate and that he will not give direction to AA on what they can and cannot do. Lane gave AA the green light for more shafting. When will we get to negotiate after abrogation? One month? One year? Three years?

Better than SIX.

"Rigged?" Bob, every time something doesn't go your way you say it was rigged. You blame the Int'l, the judge, Wall Street, AMR management, consultants, Congress, the AFL-CIO, TUL, other unions, etc... Do you ever own anything? The roll call vote has been in existence for how many years? Long before we were here. So people came in and voted that you don't agree with? You call the TWU process rigged but you want to rig it so it goes your way.

Two Fleet Service Clerks who rarely take part in M&R always seem to show up when some yes votes are needed.

Only allow people in who will vote Bob's agenda. And what is Bob's agenda? Back in the BB you posted with glee that we were going to get AMFA and now you are a TWU President. Bob's Agenda sounds like you will do anything and say anything to get a select few top pay. Who is that select few Bob? Line and half of Overhaul? Line and a quarter of Overhaul? Just Line?

You advocate destrying the profession and driving wages into the ground all under the false promise of saving jobs. What you are really advocating is destroying the jobs of all workers. I saw your response to SWAMT, you seemed to take pleasure in the fact that our concessions will likely drive SWA to push for concessions from them. You are a sick evil fraud. No A&P would take pleasure in seeing the profession destroyed as you advocate.

 

[TWU informer]

Ken I really enjoy how your post's are professional you don't seem to have any trouble making your point without attempting to cyber bully anyone, insult people etc. that's the trait of an Intelligent person, people who lack intelligence have to resort to name calling to make up for their inadequacies, it's to bad we can't use our real names on here for fear of reprisal from the company because I suspect if people were using their real names instead of behind an alias they wouldn't shoot their mouths off so much.

Sometimes the cyber bully comes from complete frustration of ignorance of others, and not lack of intelligence on the bullies part.
A person can only take so much ignorance before emotions take over and the bully comes out.

 

[Bob Owens]

"Better in BK?" Really? Where are your facts? United got smacked with an immediate 1113e that cut pay approximately 20% without a vote. Did that happen at AA?

No at AA we gave up 25% with a vote. 20% without a vote or 25% with a vote, which is better?
AA could not demand an 1113e because we are already more than 20% below any other ratified deal out there.

 

[Overspeed]

You could have given me a number that was not based on "shoulds" "woulds" and "coulds" when there was a job security clause with a date of hire attached to it.

That 2500 headcount hit is just the beginning. Are you really that ignorant? Or are you purposely creating a deceptive non answer to my question.

If AA has new aircraft the maintenace spend on those is zero, so the 35% comes from the spend on what is left of the older fleet. Which the more that shrinks the more job are gone.
Again, this is same trap that AMFA ran into at Northwest Airlines and now you are the cheerleader for a yes vote on the same bait, trap, and decimate plan of the Tulsa overhaul base.

You have no answer, but you are too proud to admit because you fear the no vote.

Nope not ignorant. I would like to get a job security date as well and to be honest, that clause has not held up so well. I got a RIF notice back when the APA was going on strike and saw many job protected people get RIF'd due to the new French phrase I learned called Force Majeure during 2001. I believe all of us in the industry learned about that phrase union and non-union alike.

You need to read up on new maintenance programs my friend. The 787 and new A320 fleets are being sold to AA as a line maintenance aircraft. Both of those aircraft favor a phased LC on the line so it is very possible that we could see jobs shift from AO to Line over the coming years.

The maintenance spend is zero? Okay Dave. The first LC is due in 18 to 24 months so it's not zero is it? And if the new aircraft cost goes down so does the OSS cost. $2B OSS 35% is $700M and if it drops to $1B then the OSS 35% goes to $350M. AA would love that scenario but since we have been getting 737s like mad that hasn't happened. Why? Because something always comes up, AD's, mods, etc...

I don't fear a no vote in fact the opposite. We are coming the end game very soon either way and I will be actually quite relieved to see the theatrics and drama that has been playing out end. We will all finally know very soon what will become of all of us. Like I said, I will still be working the Line however not doing ER checks but on nights doing BC cards.

 

[Bob Owens]

There has not been, and we still not be, any specific earmarks for work. Look at it this way, if AA maintenance spend is $2B than they can contract out $700M in work. How AA decides on what work to outsource - engines, airframe, or line - depends on how efficiently they do the work in-house versus how cheap they can get it done outside.

TAESL seems to be on borrowed time IMO. How many future fleet types has AA ordered with RR engines? None. All but the A321s will have GE products on them. No contract can keep a facility open that has a dwindling work supply.

And when the close TAESL they can increase the Maintenance Spend above 35%. How much more you ask? "accordingly".

 

[Overspeed]

No at AA we gave up 25% with a vote. 20% without a vote or 25% with a vote, which is better?
AA could not demand an 1113e because we are already more than 20% below any other ratified deal out there.

17.5% Bob, not 25%. Fuzzy math?

AA could have demanded a 1113e if they had waited. An 1113e is if the Company is in dire financial times which AA was not. Instead they were in a position to fund their reorg plan without DIP financing.

Don't worry Bob, everyone is voting no apparently. And we are not in BK because it is just a threat.