TWU and the Company reached a Tentative Agreement

[Bob Owens]

Why was Southwest, Jetblue, and others left out of the pay comparison adjustment?

Because it would reflect a true average and there would be a possibliity that we could end up not being dead last when full compensation was determined.

 

[Bob Owens]

Neither is Informer but it doesn't seem to matter. Why don't you try the PM feature for comments like that. Makes AA look a bit more Professional.

Well accepting this deal would defineatly be unprofessional. We would be saying that we arent worth what other carriers pay their mechanics and we have such a low opinion of our worth that we are willing to accept over $16,000 less than a mechanic at United doing the same work, and United is 3rd from the bottom.

 

[Tex-Mech]

And you had system protection, limits on ASMs, and retiree medical stayed intact for those over 50 with a bridge for those 45 to 49. Didn't you read it? Of course you did, only an idiot would listen to a misinformed Local President or a raiding union organizer for the truth about the TA they were voting on!

So the international is declaring here that 66% of those who pay their salaries are "idiots." Thanks for the quote

 

[Raptorman49]

Sometimes the cyber bully comes from complete frustration of ignorance of others, and not lack of intelligence on the bullies part.
A person can only take so much ignorance before emotions take over and the bully comes out.

I understand Dave but it can be done & we all know it, if someone's post bothers so much then put them on ignore but calling each other names & insulting from the other end of a keyboard is not the way & we all know it, come on let's be civil, I care about the contract as much as the next Man as this effects my life too & is most likely the last contract I will see but AC tynker is right let's be civil. PLEASE
we can make our points in a civil manner, getting out of hand will solve nothing, & will encourage others to be against the cause.

 

[TWU informer]

Nope not ignorant. I would like to get a job security date as well and to be honest, that clause has not held up so well. I got a RIF notice back when the APA was going on strike and saw many job protected people get RIF'd due to the new French phrase I learned called Force Majeure during 2001. I believe all of us in the industry learned about that phrase union and non-union alike.

You need to read up on new maintenance programs my friend. The 787 and new A320 fleets are being sold to AA as a line maintenance aircraft. Both of those aircraft favor a phased LC on the line so it is very possible that we could see jobs shift from AO to Line over the coming years.

The maintenance spend is zero? Okay Dave. The first LC is due in 18 to 24 months so it's not zero is it? And if the new aircraft cost goes down so does the OSS cost. $2B OSS 35% is $700M and if it drops to $1B then the OSS 35% goes to $350M. AA would love that scenario but since we have been getting 737s like mad that hasn't happened. Why? Because something always comes up, AD's, mods, etc...

I don't fear a no vote in fact the opposite. We are coming the end game very soon either way and I will be actually quite relieved to see the theatrics and drama that has been playing out end. We will all finally know very soon what will become of all of us. Like I said, I will still be working the Line however not doing ER checks but on nights doing BC cards.

You still divert away from the question of how many heads will be in Tulsa to enjoy the Industry Averaged Wage Adjustment in 36 months. You admit you cannot answer, but keep posting rhetoric to defend the fact that we have no job security. You keep counting on Tulsa to deliver the yes vote, yet you are adovcating complete decimation of the overhaul base.

You claim the number of projected headcount reduction is 2500 and then ignore the new aircraft and attrition that will take place after that. Thus the claim that we are saving jobs is nothing more than a false claim. Just as the claim that was made in 2003 that we were saving 10,000 jobs and three maintenance bases with the massive voluntary TWU concession the preceded this TWU concession event. When in fact the M&R headcount has dropped by over 6,000 heads since 2003, and soon two maintenance bases will be gone. So did we get what we paid for from the 2003 concessions for job program? NO

Just as the headcount in Tulsa will be reduced far more than the initial RIF. I predict there will be way less than 2000 M&R heads in Tulsa by the time the Industry Averaged Wage Adjustment comes. And those job losses will come from initial RIF, Atttrition, and outsourced work.

Saving jobs with a YES vote my ass. That is complete and utter in denial thinking.

 

[Raptorman49]

Wrong again. United was ahead of us in 2003. They didnt agree to go below us till 2005 in wages but kept a lot of stuff that we gave up.



Funny but most people who work under the deal consider 2003 to be the first BK contract. We gave up more outside of BK than they did in BK.



In december of 2002 UAL was making more than we were, yes the court, through an 1113e granted the company a 14% paycut, they came to a TA that knocked it down to 13% then two weeks later we agreed to concessions outside of BK in excess of 25%. We cut their balls off.



Better than SIX.





Two Fleet Service Clerks who rarely take part in M&R always seem to show up when some yes votes are needed.



You advocate destrying the profession and driving wages into the ground all under the false promise of saving jobs. What you are really advocating is destroying the jobs of all workers. I saw your response to SWAMT, you seemed to take pleasure in the fact that our concessions will likely drive SWA to push for concessions from them. You are a sick evil fraud. No A&P would take pleasure in seeing the profession destroyed as you advocate.

Great post Bob, As I said the other Airlines did better in BK than we are.

 

[Raptorman49]

No at AA we gave up 25% with a vote. 20% without a vote or 25% with a vote, which is better?
AA could not demand an 1113e because we are already more than 20% below any other ratified deal out there.

Your doing a Great job Bob of putting out useful information in a civil Manner.

Thank You !

 

[CIO]

Bob,

When are you going to take responsibility for your inability to negotiate.

You have spent many years with AMFA/AMP tearing down AA and the TWU!!! Bob you DO NOT have a clue how to negotiate a contract.

Your unprofessional actions has done nothing to help the Mechanics and Related at AA. You and the few Kool-Aid drinkers have cost us tens of thousands of dollars!!! and done more damage to our profession than anyone here on this board!!!!!

 

[Raptorman49]

If you have something personal to say to someone then send them a Personal message, that stays between you & him the rest of us don't need to see it.
If you have actual information that you can put out in a civil manner that would be much better received.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob,

When are you going to take responsibility for your inability to negotiate.

You have spent many years with AMFA/AMP tearing down AA and the TWU!!! Bob you DO NOT have a clue how to negotiate a contract.

Your unprofessional actions has done nothing to help the Mechanics and Related at AA. You and the few Kool-Aid drinkers have cost us tens of thousands of dollars!!! and done more damage to our profession than anyone here on this board!!!!!

Must sling mud!
Must sling mud.

Cannot defend the concessions for job, so must sling mud.
Get a life

I can go dig up your postings from the past on this forum that prove you are one of the teAAm TWU preachers that claimed the 2003 concessions for jobs would save 10,000 jobs and three maintenance bases. But where is mud slinging getting us?

It is past time for a change!

So how did a few Kool-Aid Drinkers cause a NO VOTE more than once on TWU concessions?
Explain how that works? Did Bob and his friends rig the vote?

 

[Bob Owens]

So, Bob and the other Vote No advocates. If I vote no, the Judge won't abrogate? And if he does and we get hit with the Ask, how long will negotiations last until we get near to at least the United pay scales?

It seems we don't like the current situation, but the alternative seems worse and it may take even longer to recover to what we could get now, forget about rising to the levels of others. We should give up 15% raises in turn for no raises and continue to negotiate to try and get 20%, 25%, 30%. For YEARS, we've been told to vote no until we get closer to the others, in the meantime we stay where we are. If we took a deal in '08, we be rising from there instead of '03. Now we can get 15% and in 4 years start from there instead of getting abrogated and continue to negotiate from from a starting point of the Ask. Is just doesn't make sense? Trying to get everything in one shot is a recipe for failure, especially since we're in bankruptcy!

I cant say what the Judge will do, anyone who does is guessing, same for the other questions. What I can say is that if you vote yes you will most certainly be working for at least $16000 a year less than your counter part at United, and a lot more than that than your couterpart at several other carriers. The Wage adjustment provision only covers the wage but as you know benefits can be looked at as money as well. When we agreed to five Holidays at half pay if worked, something NOBODY else gave up, we lost the equivelent of 100 hours pay. When we gave up a weeks vacation we lost another 40 hours pay and we also gave up 7 sick days, thats 56 hours pay that you can use or bank. Those concessions reduced the value of our total compensation by nearly 10%. Most of our peers kept most of those things through BK. At the time we gave those things up it came out to over $7000.

First of all its not 15% in raises, its 15% on you base. So its really closer to 2.5% for 4 years, just over 1% for two, and those raises are over a 10 year period.

Consider this, lets say the Pilots reject the deal and the Flight attendants as well and the Judge decides not to abrogate, what then? They strike a deal where after our ME Too expires they get decent deals. How will you feel then? Why not Vote No so we at least see where the pilots land? Why rush ahead of them at this point? How many times have we done that only to be sorry later?

 

[Bob Owens]

$5.1B is only 25% at best of annual revenues. For perspective, AA's fuel expense last year was around $8B or approximately 30% of revenues. $5.1B isn't going to last long is it?

It will unless their income goes to zero. What was their revenue last quarter? How has the price of fuel gone?

 

[Raptorman49]

Bob,

When are you going to take responsibility for your inability to negotiate.

You have spent many years with AMFA/AMP tearing down AA and the TWU!!! Bob you DO NOT have a clue how to negotiate a contract.

Your unprofessional actions has done nothing to help the Mechanics and Related at AA. You and the few Kool-Aid drinkers have cost us tens of thousands of dollars!!! and done more damage to our profession than anyone here on this board!!!!!

Just speaking for myself I think Bob is a very articulate Professional who is probably the best negotiator we have in the bunch, I'm betting you can't name a better one, I for one appreciate his negotiating skills, not defending Bob I know he can defend himself, I'm just saying I disagree with you.

 

[Raptorman49]

Must sling mud!
Must sling mud.

Cannot defend the concessions for job, so must sling mud.
Get a life

I can go dig up your postings from the past on this forum that prove you are one of the teAAm TWU preachers that claimed the 2003 concessions for jobs would save 10,000 jobs and three maintenance bases. But where is mud slinging getting us?

It is past time for a change!

So how did a few Kool-Aid Drinkers cause a NO VOTE more than once on TWU concessions?
Explain how that works? Did Bob and his friends rig the vote?

I agree I think the past two no votes were bigger than a few people saying vote no, people knew the offer wasn't good & were willing to wait for a better one, it's just that simple.

 

[Buck]

I wonder if the other legacy carriers that are in the T/A have a substandard AMT position and what is there percentage and compensation ?

The TWU is willing to trade jobs for dollars and yet they are already doing so. They have been doing so since the 1983 contract.