TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[WeAAsles]

Anyway you guys cut it you're still putting the cart before the horse. The NMB will be the one to decide if an election is needed or not and that decision is probably a few weeks still out there.

 

[JABORD]

This idea of the formation of an Association is not new. The referenced link provides an example years ago between the IBT and CWA. The point to make note of is our two Unions had the ability to provide us the democratic choice on whether to support their efforts and chose rather to force it upon us:
The Association states that it is the voluntarily recognized representative of the East and West Passenger Service Employees
 
On September 9, 2005, the IBT and CWA entered into a Joint Agreement for the Formation of the Association (Agreement). On or about September 22, 2005, CWA mailed out ballots and other information regarding the proposed Agreement to all East Passenger Service Employees. The ballot contained the following question: “Do you agree that CWA, the US Airways Passenger Service union, should form an association with the Teamsters, The ballot contained spaces in which to mark yes or no.
 
On September 15, 2005, the IBT sent letters and ballots asking the following question: “Do you consent to a transfer of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters’ certification as the designated representative of America West Airlines, Inc.’s Passenger Service Employees to the Airline Customer Service Employee Association – IBT and CWA?”
http://www.nmb.gov/documents/representation/deter2006/33n027.pdf
 
Recently Overhaul mechanics at AA recieved a letter from the TWU that contained the closing paragraph:
Some very important steps in our near future will be the vote on the Association and then the Harmonizing of the two CBA’s. The Association vote will be the same as any representation vote if the Association isn’t voted in we would lose our current CBA. With no CBA we become “At Will Employees”. That means you can be fired for no reason. You lose all the negotiated rights of pay, seniority, transfers, and riff procedures, just to name a few.
http://twu514.org/blog/2014/08/05/shop-steward-training-the-twu-iam-association-agreement/
The inclusion of this paragraph and the inaccurracies provided undoubtedly were intended to instigate confusion and fear. This combined strategy to spread disinformation along with the refusal to allow our choice on the Association between the TWU/IAM appears to solicit the question, "Who really is showing the fear?

 

[1AA]

So if I read it correctly the Association or the TWU and IAM respectively has to send out an internal vote to see if we want the association or not. If we say NO to the association then it stays status qua. So if we stay as we are how do we lose our CBA and union representation? I can see if the NMB conducts an election and we vote NO union or NO to the Alliance and we get decertified. Are the unions going to present the results of the Internal vote to the NMB if we say NO to the Alliance? Will the unions force the NMB decertification because of an internal vote? Very doubtful. So it looks like the unions can not go to the NMB without any input from the results of the Internal vote and ask for alliance certification without a vote from the NMB. I believe this is what happened between AWA and USAir.. Their results of the internal vote must have favored their alliance. So we need to say NO to the Alliance IF both the TWU and IAM conduct an internal vote. Then what would be the next step for the Alliance? For the unions to tell us we will lose our CBA and representation if we vote NO for the Alliance via a internal vote is ridiculous. The alliance needs a positive internal voting result for the alliance in order to make their case to the NMB. By doing this the NMB can look at Alliance certification without a member vote since an internal vote was conducted in favor of the Alliance. If we get an internal vote ballot we all know what to do. Just vote NO and things stay the same until the unions make the next move with the NMB. They are scared to death of a NMB vote. The risks are too high for decertification of the TWU and/or IAM. We have options on the ballot if it ever comes to this. This is why we need to get them cards filled out so we can put AMFA on the ballot as a option other than the Alliance.
 
In the mean time we need to get AMFA cards signed from everybody on both sides.
This is not about American or USAir, it is about us and our future if we want anything left of it.

 

[swamt]

Anyway you guys cut it you're still putting the cart before the horse. The NMB will be the one to decide if an election is needed or not and that decision is probably a few weeks still out there.

Correct.  Hopefully there will be an election.  At least this way it will be the majority to decide rather the alliance will represent them or not.  But at the same time the TWU/IAM alliance will still try to force this thru without a vote.  They are scared of the possibility of the "write-in" or "No-Union" vote.  I also agree with TSH in that let's all sit back and await the NMB's decision and then we can take it from there.  Hopefully the NMB will call for an election AND it will in fact be ran by them and not the unions.  Not sure how long this process takes but the NMB is very slow at everything they do...

 

[1AA]

Based on what happened at AWA and USAir alliance I doubt the unions can convince the NMB certification of the alliance without a vote from the members. A positive internal vote would hold more weight for the alliance to be certified without NMB election.

 

[WeAAsles]

Correct.  Hopefully there will be an election.  At least this way it will be the majority to decide rather the alliance will represent them or not.  But at the same time the TWU/IAM alliance will still try to force this thru without a vote.  They are scared of the possibility of the "write-in" or "No-Union" vote.  I also agree with TSH in that let's all sit back and await the NMB's decision and then we can take it from there.  Hopefully the NMB will call for an election AND it will in fact be ran by them and not the unions.  Not sure how long this process takes but the NMB is very slow at everything they do...

swamt I understand that you would like the chance to vote so you can write in your preferred choice of AMFA but at the same time the "No Union" option should be something that you all should be very fearful of. I don't know what station you work in but I can tell you from having spent 12 years in DFW that there is an anti union conservative mindset outside of the East coast pro Union mentality.

I know how many of you have stated your dislike of the TWU and the Association but this is not the option that anyone should want to be able to possibly make that change. And aside from that historically the write in option has very little chance of being successful.

Basically considering what happened over at Delta, yes I do believe this vote is playing with fire and if at all possible is best avoided.

 

[swamt]

So if I read it correctly the Association or the TWU and IAM respectively has to send out an internal vote to see if we want the association or not. If we say NO to the association then it stays status qua. So if we stay as we are how do we lose our CBA and union representation? I can see if the NMB conducts an election and we vote NO union or NO to the Alliance and we get decertified. Are the unions going to present the results of the Internal vote to the NMB if we say NO to the Alliance? Will the unions force the NMB decertification because of an internal vote? Very doubtful. So it looks like the unions can not go to the NMB without any input from the results of the Internal vote and ask for alliance certification without a vote from the NMB. I believe this is what happened between AWA and USAir.. Their results of the internal vote must have favored their alliance. So we need to say NO to the Alliance IF both the TWU and IAM conduct an internal vote. Then what would be the next step for the Alliance? For the unions to tell us we will lose our CBA and representation if we vote NO for the Alliance via a internal vote is ridiculous. The alliance needs a positive internal voting result for the alliance in order to make their case to the NMB. By doing this the NMB can look at Alliance certification without a member vote since an internal vote was conducted in favor of the Alliance. If we get an internal vote ballot we all know what to do. Just vote NO and things stay the same until the unions make the next move with the NMB. They are scared to death of a NMB vote. The risks are too high for decertification of the TWU and/or IAM. We have options on the ballot if it ever comes to this. This is why we need to get them cards filled out so we can put AMFA on the ballot as a option other than the Alliance.
 
In the mean time we need to get AMFA cards signed from everybody on both sides.
This is not about American or USAir, it is about us and our future if we want anything left of it.

Yes.  This is how I understand it too.  Internal Union vote, a NO vote would just mean the membership does not want the alliance.  Then I believe the next step would be a full blown election vote handled by the NMB since there are 2 different unions at each carrier, and this election would be a regular representational election with more options available to the membership than just the 2 unions currently on the properties.    Let's wait and see if there even is a vote by the NMB.  As I was told by the NMB in the very beginning it is out of their jurisdiction, and is an internal union issue.  This tells me your example above would play out where they would have to have the internal vote done first to approach the NMB for new certs.   I too believe the unions are scared to death of an NMB election held at this time, as the "write-in" option would be available.  Keep up the good work guys.  No matter who holds this election it will lay out how you guys will be represented for a very, very long time to come.  These guys need to understand that with AMFA, they (the membership) has the power to remove the ALL local officers as well as ALL National officers including the National Director which is the same equilivant to Jimmy Little before at the TWU, you cannot do this with ANY other industrial union out there period.   By being able to do this in the future when the membership is fed up with how the union is being ran they can simply remove the leaders and vote in new ones instead of try to do a full blown replacement which is very hard to do with the amount of mechanics you guys will go to.
1AA, I am still waiting to hear back from the NMB about the options.  I rewrote them as their first response, although very quick, didn't even address the option issue I asked for.  I will post both my rewrite as well as their answer no matter what...

 

[700UW]

He cant vote, he works for WN, wonder why he is over here and at US pushing AMFA big time.
 
Maybe he is on the AFMA Payroll.

 

[swamt]

swamt I understand that you would like the chance to vote so you can write in your preferred choice of AMFA but at the same time the "No Union" option should be something that you all should be very fearful of. I don't know what station you work in but I can tell you from having spent 12 years in DFW that there is an anti union conservative mindset outside of the East coast pro Union mentality.

I know how many of you have stated your dislike of the TWU and the Association but this is not the option that anyone should want to be able to possibly make that change. And aside from that historically the write in option has very little chance of being successful.

Basically considering what happened over at Delta, yes I do believe this vote is playing with fire and if at all possible is best avoided.

Again, It all comes down to WHO will be conducting the election.  I have said this for years.  Been in heated convos with one of the twins.  If the union conducts an "internal" vote (conducted by the union not the NMB) a No vote will not get the decertified.  If NMB accepts the filing and conducts the election then a No vote would result in decert of the unions.  But with the NMB conduction this election more options will be available, and yes one of them will be the write in option to write in any union they choose to write in.  I also say if union conducts internal vote a no vote means just no to the alliance as it would take the NMB to be able to decert a representational union, NOT the union itself, this would completely leave the unions open to DFR suit.  Again let's all wait for the NMB rulling before we discuss the options as some of this will confuse most...

 

[WeAAsles]

Again, It all comes down to WHO will be conducting the election.  I have said this for years.  Been in heated convos with one of the twins.  If the union conducts an "internal" vote (conducted by the union not the NMB) a No vote will not get the decertified.  If NMB accepts the filing and conducts the election then a No vote would result in decert of the unions.  But with the NMB conduction this election more options will be available, and yes one of them will be the write in option to write in any union they choose to write in.  I also say if union conducts internal vote a no vote means just no to the alliance as it would take the NMB to be able to decert a representational union, NOT the union itself, this would completely leave the unions open to DFR suit.  Again let's all wait for the NMB rulling before we discuss the options as some of this will confuse most...

Since it's already being discussed that should continue. That's how people learn and begin to eventually understand things that do concern them.

I doubt that if it were to be an internal vote the No Union option would be on the ballot either. It would more than likely be a decision among the members for moving forward with the Association or not if the NMB decides this must take place to gain certification? I would also have to assume that the lawyers for both Unions already have a good general idea as to how things will play out and what is needed to be done moving forward.

Aside from the No Union option though another thing some of you don't seem to be concerned about is telegraphing to the company what your true feelings are in regards to the Unions and or the Association. This could wind up being a grave tactical error on your part if there is extremely low participation and the results wind up being a jumbled mess? That could easily be interpreted by the company that your union support is so so and in negotiations they may be so so in wanting to come to an agreement with your ultimate bargaining representative. 

These pages already provide information to the company that I'm absolutely certain they use to their advantage. But any type of voting results could serve to cement the issues they read on this site depending on the outcome?

 

[1AA]

He cant vote, he works for WN, wonder why he is over here and at US pushing AMFA big time.
 
Maybe he is on the AFMA Payroll.

You can not vote either but you express your opinions same as he does. So what is the problem with others posting that are not on the AA or USAir payroll?

 

[MetalMover]

You can not vote either but you express your opinions same as he does. So what is the problem with others posting that are not on the AA or USAir payroll?

I understand the ballot will be three choices                 VOTE FOR THE ALLIANCE
                                                                                      VOTE FOR NO UNION
                                                                                      VOTE FOR OTHER_________

 

[JABORD]

So if I read it correctly the Association or the TWU and IAM respectively has to send out an internal vote to see if we want the association or not. If we say NO to the association then it stays status qua. So if we stay as we are how do we lose our CBA and union representation?

Your reference to an "internal vote" is spot on as to the point. The problem is that as indicated in the IBT/CWA exampl, it was not a mandate of the process. In other words, the Unions choose as to whether they want their membership to support the creation of the Association or not BEFORE going to the NMB. The IBT/CWA DID give their members a choice, the TWU/IAM has chosen to exclude us in this process with an internal vote and thus is attempting to force it on us. In my opinion, a strong presentation of petitions with our signatures expressing our dissatisfaction with the Association's attempt to skirt around their members might persuade the NMB to request it of the two Unions. Of course, the ability to get a fair amount of signatures in approximately 4-6 weeks will be difficult.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

So if I read it correctly the Association or the TWU and IAM respectively has to send out an internal vote to see if we want the association or not. If we say NO to the association then it stays status qua. So if we stay as we are how do we lose our CBA and union representation?

Your reference to an "internal vote" is spot on as to the point. The problem is that as indicated in the IBT/CWA exampl, it was not a mandate of the process. In other words, the Unions choose as to whether they want their membership to support the creation of the Association or not BEFORE going to the NMB. The IBT/CWA DID give their members a choice, the TWU/IAM has chosen to exclude us in this process with an internal vote and thus is attempting to force it on us. In my opinion, a strong presentation of petitions with our signatures expressing our dissatisfaction with the Association's attempt to skirt around their members might persuade the NMB to request it of the two Unions. Of course, the ability to get a fair amount of signatures in approximately 4-6 weeks will be difficult.

 
JABORD
 
As we have seen by the lack of interest in our class and craft, our members have the attitude that as long as the TWU is gone they don't really care. So I ask you what does it say about the guy you and I have working next to us? Getting them to write a letter would be like pulling teeth. If you or I wrote it and sent it out to all about what % of them would sign it and or even mail it? They would expect you to mail it, wouldn't they?
 
Putting out all the information that would give each member something to think about if the assoc. gets into place, on the other hand is the better idea. Telling them how each of the different scenarios would play out and if we don't get enough cards by the end of the month and the NMB makes it's ruling we could be locked out from even filing AMFA cards here at AA.
 
The race is on isn't it? either we get enough cards to submit to the NMB soon or all of the work the AMFA Organizers have done again will be for what? NOTHING...
 
No matter what the TWU or IAM has done to our class and craft the mechanics have just given up the fight. They let the same guys with in the TWU/IAM get into office and let the scamming continue. 
 
What type of Legal recourse will we have if the Assoc. files and the NMB rules they don't have to ask us.  If there is a legal battle who is going to pay for it? AMFA National?  Why would they do that since it's NOT our money they have since we are not AMFA members. Wouldn't the SWA and Alaska Guys have to vote to spend their dues on US. Now Why would they do that?
 
I think it's time that all the cards are put out on the table, IT'S Now or Never isn't it?
 
If we get a good showing of card signers from USAirways how is it going to LQQK when we still fall short because the Title 2 and Tulsa guys for what ever reason just don't get it?
 
LAX StL. SFO Tulsa, DCA all have lots of title 1 cards not signed. It's time for each mechanic at all our stations to get into this fight.
 
Isn't it time to ask why?    WHO'S going to take the blame this time If we fail to get on the Ballot again?  
 
I see many here talk about a write in, if you can't get them to sign a card that you will mail in, which takes all of what 2 min of their time, how are we going to get them to write in AMFA? With out the truth about where we are and what has transpired during the many drives the membership is/will be in the dark about what AMFA is about, and what the TWU has done to our class and craft.

 

[xUT]

He cant vote, he works for WN, wonder why he is over here and at US pushing AMFA big time.
 
Maybe he is on the AFMA Payroll.

Pot meet kettle...
IIRC, AMFA does not have 'professional' union organizers like the industrial unions.
AMFA has always been grass roots.
B) xUT