TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

[TRAVIS]

They're stabbing each other at this point.

I noticed that you have not yet voted at the top of the page. What's up still not sure if you want the alliance? Are you a pro IAM or TWU as you have not voted yet.
And thanks for posting the letters the IAM would have hidden it from the membership and said alls well.

 

[iluvaa]

I give credit where it's do thanks nyer for posting these letters. I think it proves what most have been saying no that this association is a complete mess and it will hurt the membership not help them. In fighting before the ink is dry i not a good sign of things to Come

 

[MetalMover]

Once again, the minority trying to dictate what the majority does. 
This alliance hasn't even been set in stone yet and they are already acting without impunity. 
 
Hey WeAAsles. are you still trying to "SELL" this crap to us?

 

[Bob Owens]

Still 100% behind the Alliance. Chit I had worse fights with my ex wife then this.

"ex wife", exactly. A marriage that was never meant to be, just like this Alliance. 

 

[700UW]

Is someone not happy with AMFA?
 
 

 
Aren't you tired of the secret ways of the TWU, why shouldn't the membership who have signed cards be privy to the numbers or is it TWU Lite? The amfa drive leaders want us to get cards signed but won't be honest when it comes to the numbers.
 
Why shouldn't the Tulsa guys know just how close we are or the line guys know how far away we are?
 
Why should the guys who have helped get cards signed throughout the system be in the dark as to what needs to be done. 
 
Why has it been a secret each drive, is it because the numbers told to the organizers is a lie? Just a ploy to keep them pumped up so they will stay with it? You yourself from what I have been told did not get involved this time around. WHY is that? Tired of getting the same questions from the same guys and telling the same tales in Tulsa?
 
Shouldn't we all know how much involvement from the the NEC of AMFA is?
 
Are we supposed to just be followers of the few guys who dictate the drive each time?
 
AMFA is supposed to be a democratic way isn't it? A union where everyone has a voice, well the membership can't have a voice as to what is going on if we are kept in the dark as to the progress of removing the TWU.
 
This drive started in Jan, 2014 we will soon be in November, we are waiting on the NMB and this has given the organizers more time to gather enough cards from both US/AA mechanic and related class and craft employees.
 
If we don't have the cards what is the excuse going to be this time? There hasn't been an AMFA blast via email in weeks, why?  In any campaign it should get stronger as the end nears not just go silent. If there is a plan we have the right to know since we will have to push that plan if need be. other wise just like our contract vote there will be so much complacency the TWU will remain, is that what YOU want INFORMER?
 
Why haven't the Lead AMFA organizers gotten a signed letter from AMFA's NEC telling the mechanics at AA/US just what the plan is going forward? 
 
Why don't we have a Letter saying we want you from the AMFA NEC. 
 
The TWU has kept us in the dark with everything since I hired on with AA, so is this the learned experience the organizers have so that is the reason they want to keep it a secret? Are these the guys who you will want to be voted into amfa positions? The guys who feel its not important for you to not know until they decide? Thats TWU lite.......

 

[TRAVIS]

Is someone not happy with AMFA?
 

Did you get rehired to work again for the IAM.
 
Ok come clean are you WeAAsles in drag?
The snakeoil salesman seemed familiar in some way.... LOL  

 

[WeAAsles]

Once again, the minority trying to dictate what the majority does. 
This alliance hasn't even been set in stone yet and they are already acting without impunity. 
 
Hey WeAAsles. are you still trying to "SELL" this crap to us?

Nope. Wouldn't be able to sell anything to those of you on this thread who have already made your minds up apparently a very very very long time ago. This certainly adds a great shot in the arm to what you guys are aiming to achieve now doesn't it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Letter #2 (response to letter 1)
 
October 24, 2014

Dear Brother Drummond,

In response to your recent communication regarding our TWU/IAM Association
implementation, the lAM is in full agreement that your pursuit of the issues you cite have
caused an unreasonable delay in our forward-moving preparation for representation on the
new American Airlines. The lAM and TWU have had no dispute that the Association documents
are clear and unambiguous regarding those issues. It is unfortunate that the entire process is
still held up over the undisputed plain language of those documents; documents that were
agreed to by the TWU and signed by the highest authority within your organization, the
International President and as approved by your lAC.
 
The lAM simply has no appetite to undo our agreement, horse-trade members in Boston to
satisfy an internal TWU promise or cause any further delay in the important business of
preparing for negotiations that will result in the best airline contracts in the industry with the
most secure pension available. To that end, we agree to meet as soon as possible. We can
adjust schedules as necessary for the remainder of this month. Please supply immediate dates
you are available for coordinating a meeting.
 
Inasmuch as TWU had committed to joint contract negotiations preparations at the lAM Placid
Harbor Training Center and scheduling of guests, trainers and speakers (including the NMB}
have been accomplished, the Association will proceed with the meetings and preparation at the
Training Center. There, the Association will develop negotiating goals, a communications
strategy and surveys for proposals from all members represented by the Association.
It is our understanding from discussions with you that TWU locals have a certain level of
autonomy within your organization and your negotiators will likely include TWU local
Presidents. Therefore, while you indicate you will not attend the preparation sessions, the
Association extends an invitation to all TWU local Presidents representing American Airlines
workers covered by the Association.
 
Responses to that invitation should be made without delay to the undersigned at
tklima@iam Participants should be aware that the lAM will provide room, boarding and
transportation to and from the airport are provided with travel days November 15 and
November 20.
 
Brother Garry, we are poised to be the biggest and the best in the airline industry. The lAM is
committed to achieving everything possible for our collective members. We would be doing a
disservice to our members by not properly and expeditiously preparing for negotiations.
 
Fraternally,
Tim Klima
Airline Coordinator

 
 
Corrected the part you left out. "The best airline contracts in the industry with the most secure pension available" was bolded and underlined in the copy put out by the IAM under their header. 
 
 
the most "secure" pension available
 
 
Pension-singular, no option to not be in that most secure pension indicated there. Nor will there be because with the reduced funding DB plans like the IAMNPF rely on everybody paying in while some die without ever collecting a penny. 
 
 
Well I have Social Security, I have my frozen AA pension and now I have a 401k match. I'd rather see us go for a better match on all wages earned (Somewhere between the FAs 9% and the pilots 14%) than lose the ability to retire at 60 without penalty, or 55 with 15% penalty and keep the option to work somewhere else with the skills I have than settle for the "most 'secure' pension available". 
 
If we get rolled into the IAMNPF and lose the ability to retire at 60 without penalty (and 3% penalty per year prior to 60) millions of dollars worth of liability (essentially monies owed to us) would simply disappear off the balance sheets for American Airlines. What they could not get in BK they will have succeeded in getting while showing Billions in profits. The Association would then use that, plus future savings from not having to match all hours worked and already agreed to increased pay rates to give the multi billion profit earning AA a zero cost contract that they would then sell as "industry leading". Sure AA may say that the deal represents hundreds of millions in improvements but the fact is we would be paying for that with the concessions to our pension and clearing hundreds of millions off AA's debt. 
 
So tell us NYer, how much of a penalty would we incur should we decide to leave AA at 55 and work somewhere lee under the IAMNPF? Right now under the AA plan we would see a 15% penalty on our DB plan and could take 100% of the 401K, and if we were hired by SWA or UPS or Fed Ex we could collect our AA Pension while moving up the scales to their much higher topped out rate. Our plan at AA gives us mobility and portability which makes it harder for the employer to abuse us (especially younger or less senior workers)  while the IAMNPF locks us into AA with even even more punitive terms than the company sponsored Pensions.
 
The pensions were used at both AA and US to get us into the worst deals in the industry, deals that in many respects are inferior to Non-union (1 week of VC for first five years, five holidays with half pay if worked, 5 sick days @ half pay for the first two on each occurance-below NYC mandated minimums, etc). The terms of the IAMNPF are great for the company, it gives them a defined, controllable pension cost. Want to reduce pension costs? Simple, don't hire more workers and make the ones you have work more hours. Once the 2080 hours are paid they don't have to pay any more. They wouldn't have to carry pension liability on their balance sheets because they would pass that off to the IAMNPF. If they fall short they simply cut your pension. So you are sitting at home, retired,  and you get a letter from the IAMNPF stating that instead of getting $2000/month you are now getting only $1500, so you dust off your tools and go to the nearest airport looking for work to make up for the cut only to get another letter saying that since you are once again working you get nothing. Under what we have now AA would still have to pay and they can't cut what we have earned. 

 

[WeAAsles]

"ex wife", exactly. A marriage that was never meant to be, just like this Alliance. 

Have to give you this one Bob. I certainly didn't think it out too well when I drew up my analogy. So I'm guessing that you feel the better solution is to have that fight and also maybe have a good portion of our combined group hating each other because they lost? I guess that you're ok with that collateral damage and having even more people among the combined group having no interest in being a part of any future efforts by whatever union we end up with?

You're a student of Labor and you know that their influence has been getting weaker for too many years now. If not forming and supporting alliances Bob then what's your solution to stop the hemorrhaging? Do you have a better idea?

I can't do anything now but wait to see like everyone else how the Leaders handle this. Maybe it's just Political theater or maybe it is something worse? We'll see? I don't think the IAM is going to back out like you want and I think it would take both groups wanting to, to invalidate the agreement? And I guess those gains that are sitting on the table right now (my opinion) will need to sit? Hopefully a stiff wind doesn't come and blow them away in the meantime?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

700 where's the links to back up your posts?

You were supposed to deliver the Delle letter and provide a link showing the DOL still classifies aircraft mechanics as unskilled.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
Corrected the part you left out. "The best airline contracts in the industry with the most secure pension available" was bolded and underlined in the copy put out by the IAM under their header. 
 
 
the most "secure" pension available
 
 
Pension-singular, no option to not be in that most secure pension indicated there. Nor will there be because with the reduced funding DB plans like the IAMNPF rely on everybody paying in while some die without ever collecting a penny. 
 
 
Well I have Social Security, I have my frozen AA pension and now I have a 401k match. I'd rather see us go for a better match on all wages earned (Somewhere between the FAs 9% and the pilots 14%) than lose the ability to retire at 60 without penalty, or 55 with 15% penalty and keep the option to work somewhere else with the skills I have than settle for the "most 'secure' pension available". 
 
If we get rolled into the IAMNPF and lose the ability to retire at 60 without penalty millions of dollars worth of liability (essentially monies owed to us) would simply disappear off the balance sheets for American Airlines. What they could not get in BK they will have succeeded in getting while showing Billions in profits. The Association would then use that, plus future savings from not having to match all hours worked and already agreed to increased pay rates to give the multi billion profit earning AA a zero cost contract that they would then sell as "industry leading". Sure AA may say that the deal represents hundreds of millions in improvement but the fact is we would be paying for that with the concessions to our pension and clearing hundreds of millions off AA's debt. 

You guys keep telling one side to stop engaging in fear tactics. I wish you would do the same. Going down the line from AA, to the TWU, to our Negotiators and finally to the ultimate decider, the membership. Who would agree with this scenario?

By the way in the interest of fairness and transparency Bob I did talk with a Lawyer from the PBGC and I was wrong. She did say that it can be unfrozen and rolled over. There are some stipulations though in that 2006 law change that don't make it an easy prospect of just saying ok though. AA would still be required to make up the shortfall to keep the IAMPF in the green zone status.

And even if we had something to vote on that incorporated your doomsday scenario do you really believe the members you represent are that stupid?

 

 

[toroshark]

If every T/A the membership receives has language that takes them out of matching 401k and dumps them into Iampf then it will eventually pass. The unions have learned the art of divide and conquer from The companies to strategically get things passed by placating just enough people and screw the rest.

 

[Bob Owens]

You guys keep telling one side to stop engaging in fear tactics. I wish you would do the same. Going down the line from AA, to the TWU, to our Negotiators and finally to the ultimate decider, the membership. Who would agree with this scenario?

By the way in the interest of fairness and transparency Bob I did talk with a Lawyer from the PBGC and I was wrong. She did say that it can be unfrozen and rolled over. There are some stipulations though in that 2006 law change that don't make it an easy prospect of just saying ok though. AA would still be required to make up the shortfall to keep the IAMPF in the green zone status.

And even if we had something to vote on that incorporated your doomsday scenario do you really believe the members you represent are that stupid?

 

 
 
You keep missing that by going into the IAMPF where we can't retire without penalty till 65, instead of 60 that millions of dollars worth of that shortfall would simply disappear. Adding five more working years greatly reduces the amount required to fund the pension. They will use these saving to fund changes to our agreement to the point where they can claim its industry leading while at the same time allowing AA to tell its share holders they just got another zero cost contract from their ground workers.  
 
 
 
 
Look at the contracts we work under, the worst in the industry. Who would believe that anyone would vote for a deal like this at a company thats pulling in billions in profits? Most of the people I represent were well informed and voted against these bad deals yet somebody voted yes and here we are at the very bottom of the industry working for less than half in real terms than we were 15 years ago. You may call them stupid, I call them uninformed and misled. 
 
How long have you been in this industry? Have you ever been told all the details of the concessions you are giving or just enough in the Highlites to say "We told you"? "We told you our intent was to put everyone in the IAMNPF and have you fully vested from day one", but they aren't going to voluntarily tell you that it saves AA millions of dollars and that you lose the ability to retire at 60 and can't work another job, , that your pension would no longer be guaranteed under the PBGC to the amount earned up to the freeze date, that your pension can be reduced under the multi employer plan and in a worst case scenario where the plan runs out of money the most you are guaranteed is $13000 a year. 

 

[737823]

You keep missing that by going into the IAMPF where we can't retire without penalty till 65, instead of 60 that millions of dollars worth of that shortfall would simply disappear. Adding five more working years greatly reduces the amount required to fund the pension. They will use these saving to fund changes to our agreement to the point where they can claim its industry leading while at the same time allowing AA to tell its share holders they just got another zero cost contract from their ground workers.  
 
 
 
 
Look at the contracts we work under, the worst in the industry. Who would believe that anyone would vote for a deal like this at a company thats pulling in billions in profits? Most of the people I represent were well informed and voted against these bad deals yet somebody voted yes and here we are at the very bottom of the industry working for less than half in real terms than we were 15 years ago. You may call them stupid, I call them uninformed and misled. 
 
How long have you been in this industry? Have you ever been told all the details of the concessions you are giving or just enough in the Highlites to say "We told you"? "We told you our intent was to put everyone in the IAMNPF and have you fully vested from day one", but they aren't going to voluntarily tell you that it saves AA millions of dollars and that you lose the ability to retire at 60 and can't work another job, , that your pension would no longer be guaranteed under the PBGC to the amount earned up to the freeze date, that your pension can be reduced under the multi employer plan and in a worst case scenario where the plan runs out of money the most you are guaranteed is $13000 a year.

Bob WeAAsles worked at LGA starting in 1995. He's relatively new to the industry as far as AA seniority goes.

Josh

 

[700UW]

I am still waiting on my source to get a copy of the letter.
 
http://www.goiam.org/uploadedFiles/Letter_t.V.Delle-Femine.8.9.05.pdf?LangType=1033
 
Here is some interesting reading.
 
http://www.labornet.org/news/0000/looscan.htm
 
 
Northwest to Fly Without Union Mechanics
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2005/08/11/ap2178540.html
 
Northwest Flight Attendants Vote on Strike
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/09/AR2005080900685.html
 
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2005/kutalikjohnson030905.html
 

 
Yubian noted that members of the Transport Workers Union (TWU), Machinists (IAM), and Teamsters all showed support for the picket lines. "Gate agents (represented by IAM) dropped off food and water to support the lines, and gave us information about flight delays and maintenance problems. Ramp personnel (also IAM) got us information as well."