Tulsa's AMT's can make things better

[amtide]

Make things better ? How ? Signing anything AA put in front of you guys ? My respect to the no voters that stand for what is right.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

We brought amfa into UAL. A few months later, we all felt like we were bent over and grabbing our ankles. amfa supplied the lube. That was it.

Just more ibt nonsense.

We were in bankruptcy, what were you expecting...raises?

 

[DonnaU]

DonnaU, you need to "spellcheck" your spelling of spell check.

Odie, don't forget to set your watch back 40 years when you cross the Red River heading to Tulsa.

Thx, AA

 

[1AA]

The only way the Tulsa AMT's and the rest of us can make things better is by replacing the TWU. Anyone who believes the Teamsters will change things is in for a surprise. First of all the Teamsters are running a Bull Crap campaign to divert our attention away from the AMFA drive. Second thing is that IF and I say IF the Teamsters should get enough cards do you think they will file? I say NO. Hear me out on this one. The TWU is not saying much about this raid from the Teamsters. That is kind of unusual since the TWU stands to lose MILLIONS of $$$$$ in dues money. If a vote should happen you will have FOUR choices on the ballot.
1) TWU
2) Teamsters
3) _________ (Fill in your choice)
4) NO Representation

May not be in that order but you get the idea.
Now if there is no clear majority winner, this shows lack of interest
to any organizational group. Then we will be without any representation. In other words NO UNION. The TWU will be decertified and we just screwed ourselves.
Think this wont happen if we get to a vote? YES because we as a group at AA are so disorganized that we can not agree on any issues. So in conclusion there will be no election filed by the Teamsters even if they have enough cards.

We are so fed up with this crap that votes will be scattered. Some will vote Teamsters Others will keep the TWU. Others will fill in AMFA. You might even see some other union on the fill in line. And the NO union box will get some takers who are tired of unions all together. The majority of us need to know what we want. Is it the TWU or the AMFA? The only two realistic choices. It is up to us to decide. I decide AMFA.
What do you decide?

 

[Hopeful]

The only way the Tulsa AMT's and the rest of us can make things better is by replacing the TWU. Anyone who believes the Teamsters will change things is in for a surprise. First of all the Teamsters are running a Bull Crap campaign to divert our attention away from the AMFA drive. Second thing is that IF and I say IF the Teamsters should get enough cards do you think they will file? I say NO. Hear me out on this one. The TWU is not saying much about this raid from the Teamsters. That is kind of unusual since the TWU stands to lose MILLIONS of $$$$$ in dues money. If a vote should happen you will have FOUR choices on the ballot.
1) TWU
2) Teamsters
3) _________ (Fill in your choice)
4) NO Representation

May not be in that order but you get the idea.
Now if there is no clear majority winner, this shows lack of interest
to any organizational group. Then we will be without any representation. In other words NO UNION. The TWU will be decertified and we just screwed ourselves.
Think this wont happen if we get to a vote? YES because we as a group at AA are so disorganized that we can not agree on any issues. So in conclusion there will be no election filed by the Teamsters even if they have enough cards.

We are so fed up with this crap that votes will be scattered. Some will vote Teamsters Others will keep the TWU. Others will fill in AMFA. You might even see some other union on the fill in line. And the NO union box will get some takers who are tired of unions all together. The majority of us need to know what we want. Is it the TWU or the AMFA? The only two realistic choices. It is up to us to decide. I decide AMFA.
What do you decide?

Patience, my friend, patience...

When Tulsa becomes the minority slowly but surely, not just the line guys, but even the folks in Tulsa who have had enough of the TWU will become the majority.

 

[Anomaly]

Yeah, it probably is a typical AMFA response. And yours would a typical non-Amfa response. Like I said its just a difference of philosophies. Of course any job can be outsourced (except upper management of course). We can agree I think that no union will stop a management that wants to outsource. It has been my opinion since I hired on at AA 23 years ago that mechanics would do better with a union representing mechanics. A lot has happened in those years and neither union has a perfect track record but as a licensed A & P I think AMFA is better over the long haul.

Rewind back several years and I did absolutely and 100% agree with all your statements. Unfortunately, AMFA proved themselves to be a very bad application of a good idea. The mistake was not just ours at UAL, it was seen at other airlines too.

 

[Anomaly]

Just more ibt nonsense.

We were in bankruptcy, what were you expecting...raises?

I expected some of the amfa promises to be kept. We were not able to bring the airline to their knees as amfa said. We were not able to stand up to the courts by being in a single craft union as amfa said. We were not able to deliver complete public support as aviation professionals as amfa said. We were not able to stay ahead of the weaker industrial unions as amfa said.

Nothing amfa said during the campaign helped us in the least. Their constitution and operating methods only offered more chances for members to turn on members. We forgot who we were fighting and began fighting ourselves.

I expected what you expected. Real power in a mechanics only union. What I experienced was Something Completely Different.

Stand Up For amfa ??????

I did, and this is how I felt.....You decide

 

[DonnaU]

I expected some of the amfa promises to be kept. We were not able to bring the airline to their knees as amfa said. We were not able to stand up to the courts by being in a single craft union as amfa said. We were not able to deliver complete public support as aviation professionals as amfa said. We were not able to stay ahead of the weaker industrial unions as amfa said.

Nothing amfa said during the campaign helped us in the least. Their constitution and operating methods only offered more chances for members to turn on members. We forgot who we were fighting and began fighting ourselves.

I expected what you expected. Real power in a mechanics only union. What I experienced was Something Completely Different.

Stand Up For amfa ??????

I did, and this is how I felt.....You decide

Anomaly, I agree completely. Union promises are the same as political promises, to get the weak minded to get voted in, get dues money and leave the believers with worthless empty results. Its played out this way over the millenia. All unions are the same, each worth less than the other! AMFA, IBT, TWU all want your money thats all!!!!!! LEARN FROM THE PAST.

 

[Anomaly]

Anomaly, I agree completely. Union promises are the same as political promises, to get the weak minded to get voted in, get dues money and leave the believers with worthless empty results. Its played out this way over the millenia. All unions are the same, each worth less than the other! AMFA, IBT, TWU all want your money thats all!!!!!! LEARN FROM THE PAST.

Well that was not quite the point I was making :huh: .

Union wages and benefits have predominately lead the non union sector for years. It is the model the rest of the country chases. The non union vendors that do the same work we do are not paid or compensated to the same degree as union mechanics. The one caveat is Delta airlines who still consistently pays in accordance to the average union worker, but does not have the same protections and benefits enjoyed by union workers (consider lay off policy with Delta). What's more the gender gap is non existent in union circles.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-06-21/equal-pay-plaintiffs-burden-of-proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

If nothing else, the unions basis of seniority rules at least levels the playing field for all workers regardless of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and green card status (as posted by one very confused observer on this thread).

I think you are being a bit hard on unions, but that is just my opinion. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

 

[Tex-Mech]

AMFA, IBT, TWU all want your money thats all!!!!!!

Just remember that the Teamsters want $400 more a year of it.

 

[DonnaU]

Well that was not quite the point I was making :huh: .

Union wages and benefits have predominately lead the non union sector for years. It is the model the rest of the country chases. The non union vendors that do the same work we do are not paid or compensated to the same degree as union mechanics. The one caveat is Delta airlines who still consistently pays in accordance to the average union worker, but does not have the same protections and benefits enjoyed by union workers (consider lay off policy with Delta). What's more the gender gap is non existent in union circles.

http://www.businessw...burden-of-proof
http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

If nothing else, the unions basis of seniority rules at least levels the playing field for all workers regardless of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and green card status (as posted by one very confused observer on this thread).

I think you are being a bit hard on unions, but that is just my opinion. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

Anomaly, maybe I was a little harsh. But the primary point I would like to make is b careful about promises any union can make, easy to state tough to keep. I've heard alot in my life, maybe I'm a little jaded. Sorry

 

[Anomaly]

Anomaly, maybe I was a little harsh. But the primary point I would like to make is b careful about promises any union can make, easy to state tough to keep. I've heard alot in my life, maybe I'm a little jaded. Sorry

No apology needed. Your views are respected by me although I may not always agree.

I do, however, agree with your statement above.

 

[proAMT]

Yes, I believe we are better off, in general, unionized rather than operating without a union.

I am not perfect I am merely a human. The very best I can do is to gather data and to make an educated decision.

A point I want to bring out is the fact that because AMFA is limited to representing a single class and craft it is easily replaced if its membership is not happy with its performance.

The fact is it has happened in the past on at least two occasions I can think of.

When things go wrong, whether it is the fault of the union or not, mob mentality rules and someone has to pay.
This kind of freedom, having the ability to switch unions at the drop of a hat, is a double edged sword. You can easily send AMFA packing BUT, you can always get worse. Be careful what you wish for. Your choice you are in charge.

Another situation is when a huge pied piper union with unlimited resources is able to use its resources in campaigning to an enraged membership and to tell them the very things they wish to hear whether those things are true or not. The craft union is again at a disadvantage. It does not rake in millions from all types of crafts it only receives dues from a single class in craft. It is a real Davy vs. Goliath scenario. So if the enraged mob or membership, whatever you want to call them, buys into the music the pied piper industrial union is blowing than the craft union can be easily ousted.
(In truth is to reopen this contract once its signed is nearly impossible. UAL employees were promised the same thing and it never happened.)

Now this weakness that I speak of, the ability to easily change unions, is not necessarily a weakness if you are the member. The IBT, TWU, IAM or UAW would all be ready in a minutes notice to campaign against and attempt to replace AMFA if we were unsatisfied with AMFA's performance. AMFA finds itself in a position where it must perform or be shown the door.

So far Southwest and Alaska seem fairly happy with AMFA. Do you believe the IBT would sit on its hands if it had a chance at displacing AMFA at SWA or Alaska? Past history proves they would not.

In a nutshell AMFA must perform to our satisfaction or they are out on their butts.

Once another industrial union is successful at American they will no doubt not be happy representing a single class and craft. Why should they they are certainly not designed to represent a single class and craft? The TWU got its foot in the door at American via fleet service and from there they went on to represent many classes including mechanics and related, flight engineers and the flight attendents.

The TWU lost the flight attendents and the flight engineers but because of its entrenchment into many crafts and classes it has been able to hang on at AA to the point of using dead people, merged airline personal and selling us benefits and then making us believe we are walking away from something another union cannot provide. Point is they are entrenched.

If you prefer another union fill out a card, democracy is good. Perhaps the IBT or the IAM would do a better job than the TWU. If you want a union that is forced to work for you or find themselves on the outside looking in than consider filling out an AMFA card.

They try harder because they have to.

 

[Anomaly]

Yes, I believe we are better off, in general, unionized rather than operating without a union.

I am not perfect I am merely a human. The very best I can do is to gather data and to make an educated decision.

A point I want to bring out is the fact that because AMFA is limited to representing a single class and craft it is easily replaced if its membership is not happy with its performance.

The fact is it has happened in the past on at least two occasions I can think of.

When things go wrong, whether it is the fault of the union or not, mob mentality rules and someone has to pay.
This kind of freedom, having the ability to switch unions at the drop of a hat, is a double edged sword. You can easily send AMFA packing BUT, you can always get worse. Be careful what you wish for. Your choice you are in charge.

Another situation is when a huge pied piper union with unlimited resources is able to use its resources in campaigning to an enraged membership and to tell them the very things they wish to hear whether those things are true or not. The craft union is again at a disadvantage. It does not rake in millions from all types of crafts it only receives dues from a single class in craft. It is a real Davy vs. Goliath scenario. So if the enraged mob or membership, whatever you want to call them, buys into the music the pied piper industrial union is blowing than the craft union can be easily ousted.
(In truth is to reopen this contract once its signed is nearly impossible. UAL employees were promised the same thing and it never happened.)

Now this weakness that I speak of, the ability to easily change unions, is not necessarily a weakness if you are the member. The IBT, TWU, IAM or UAW would all be ready in a minutes notice to campaign against and attempt to replace AMFA if we were unsatisfied with AMFA's performance. AMFA finds itself in a position where it must perform or be shown the door.

So far Southwest and Alaska seem fairly happy with AMFA. Do you believe the IBT would sit on its hands if it had a chance at displacing AMFA at SWA or Alaska? Past history proves they would not.

In a nutshell AMFA must perform to our satisfaction or they are out on their butts.

Once another industrial union is successful at American they will no doubt not be happy representing a single class and craft. Why should they they are certainly not designed to represent a single class and craft? The TWU got its foot in the door at American via fleet service and from there they went on to represent many classes including mechanics and related, flight engineers and the flight attendents.

The TWU lost the flight attendents and the flight engineers but because of its entrenchment into many crafts and classes it has been able to hang on at AA to the point of using dead people, merged airline personal and selling us benefits and then making us believe we are walking away from something another union cannot provide. Point is they are entrenched.

If you prefer another union fill out a card, democracy is good. Perhaps the IBT or the IAM would do a better job than the TWU. If you want a union that is forced to work for you or find themselves on the outside looking in than consider filling out an AMFA card.

They try harder because they have to.

Well said, however, how can you explain the ousting of the IAM at UAL and NWA, the IBT at SWA, or the TWU at Horizon? All of these unions were and are still a Goliath by your own description, yet they were all cast aside as easily as AMFA was in the cases of both QX and UA. Their size and financial strength gave them no advantage. and they were dropped by the members for failing to adequately represent. At least that was the perception.

Look beyond these and to the AFA, and ALPA. Both of these craft unions have lost members too even smaller independent associations.

I think in this environment, any union, craft or industrial, should be forced to work for it's members or risk finding themselves on the outside looking in. Craft unions do not have a monopoly or edge in representing due to the smaller size.

It sounds good though.

 

[TWU informer]

Well said, however, how can you explain the ousting of the IAM at UAL and NWA, the IBT at SWA, or the TWU at Horizon? All of these unions were and are still a Goliath by your own description, yet they were all cast aside as easily as AMFA was in the cases of both QX and UA. Their size and financial strength gave them no advantage. and they were dropped by the members for failing to adequately represent. At least that was the perception.

Look beyond these and to the AFA, and ALPA. Both of these craft unions have lost members too even smaller independent associations.

I think in this environment, any union, craft or industrial, should be forced to work for it's members or risk finding themselves on the outside looking in. Craft unions do not have a monopoly or edge in representing due to the smaller size.

It sounds good though.

Take notice Anomaly.
Your Teamsters have already been shown the door at every line station in the AA System.
You and them are now irrellevant in the AA AMT's future.
Move on and get lost.