TUL mechs

[Overspeed]

You know while I enjoy our little exchanges, I really get a good laugh when you contradict your own posts while trying to defend them.
 
Such as .....
 
 
Then you post/link an article that begins with this...
 
 
Thats just too good

 
TWU members are wise when given the facts. Unfortunately you and your UAL buddies were deceived. Our TWU reps at the time were wise to the ESOP scam. Blame the TWU for everything else but you gotta give the TWU credit, they made the right call on the ESOP.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/24/business/unions-rebuff-american-on-equity-stake.html
 
Ed Koziatek, the international vice president of the Transport Workers Union of the A.F.L.-C.I.O., which represents 30,000 American Airlines mechanics, flight instructors and other workers, said the union had "no intention" of approaching the airline's management. "I don't believe these ESOP's are a panacea" to the airline industry's financial problems, Mr. Koziatek said, referring to employee stock ownership plans.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And yet again you fail to prove anything validating your original statement.
 
The fact that you try to deflect the topic from your original post to one you can try to somehow tie an AMFA insult into is telling. So typical of you, when you can't defend your original statement, you try and cloud the issue with your grade school critique of a decision made by the UAL mechanics and others over 20 years ago.
 
You don't know what you're talking about and I think thats obvious to most here.

 

[MetalMover]

 
TWU members are wise when given the facts. Unfortunately you and your UAL buddies were deceived. Our TWU reps at the time were wise to the ESOP scam. Blame the TWU for everything else but you gotta give the TWU credit, they made the right call on the ESOP.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/24/business/unions-rebuff-american-on-equity-stake.html
 
Ed Koziatek, the international vice president of the Transport Workers Union of the A.F.L.-C.I.O., which represents 30,000 American Airlines mechanics, flight instructors and other workers, said the union had "no intention" of approaching the airline's management. "I don't believe these ESOP's are a panacea" to the airline industry's financial problems, Mr. Koziatek said, referring to employee stock ownership plans.

LMAO, you are quoting Koziatek as the end-all? He was the founding father to all our concessions....Are you kidding?

 

[Overspeed]

Ok. I still stand by my original statement. Agree to disagree. I read the daily updates on the UA BK and saw everyday how badly the UA employees got screwed over. Every analysis on the ESOP shows how it was poorly constructed, bad decisions were made, and the company was one of the most deeply in debt when the airlines went in to financial distress.
 
Again, one only needs to look at the aftermath of the BK to know that UAL was near the bottom and the ESOP was a major contributor. The articles state clearly that the ESOP while maybe not the only contributor to UAL's failure, it deeply inhibited its ability to succeed.
 
And the TWU saw through the ESOP scam.
 
I will continue to post about educate

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Ok. I still stand by my original statement. Agree to disagree. I read the daily updates on the UA BK and saw everyday how badly the UA employees got screwed over. Every analysis on the ESOP shows how it was poorly constructed, bad decisions were made, and the company was one of the most deeply in debt when the airlines went in to financial distress.
 
Again, one only needs to look at the aftermath of the BK to know that UAL was near the bottom and the ESOP was a major contributor. The articles state clearly that the ESOP while maybe not the only contributor to UAL's failure, it deeply inhibited its ability to succeed.
 
And the TWU saw through the ESOP scam.
 
I will continue to post about educate

 
I don't need to agree to disagree because you've been trying to change the context of your argument for the last 24 hours as your initial statements prove beyond a doubt you're clueless when it comes to the ESOP at UAL.
 
So go on and post all you want about how the ESOP was poorly constructed, and how bad decisions were made, and the company was one of the most deeply in debt when the airline went in to bankruptcy.  I never challenged these points
 
I challenged this initial statement of yours...
 

 
UAL was in terrible shape financially because of the ESOP. The company was heavily leveraged and was nearly out of cash when they filed BK...

 
My response ...
 

 
UAL was in terrible shape financially because of the ESOP???....

 
To which you responded...
 

 
How was the ESOP funded? More assets at United were used to fund it, leaving less to borrow against. ESOP in itself was not to blame but is played a big part in its ability to stay afloat. But believe what you want.

 
The highlighted portion of your post was proof from the onset that you don't know what you're talking about - UAL assets were not used to fund the ESOP,  6 years of wage and benefit concessions from employees were. If you had anywhere near the understanding of our ESOP as you claim, you would've known this basic fact on how the ESOP was funded and never made such an outrageous statement.

 

[Overspeed]

Okay. I still stand by my original post. The ESOP was a big part of the reason why UA went in to BK near liquidation. The company was heavily leveraged, bankrolled by wage cuts and using the company as collateral (assets).
 
The fact is this is my opinion based on the facts as I see them. Plain and simple.
 
Remember you lived it as you said, I didn't because my union the TWU new it was a bad idea.
 
Now the members can see, should we follow the opinions of you who have been slammed once (ESOP), again in BK (1113e), and then finally by AMFA (rolling over after talking tough in the 1113c). UA has far more work outsourced than AA even after we went through BK. Flipped unions twice in the last twenty years to no avail.
 
Switching unions doesn't work. Membership involvement does. Why you guys argued about who gets to use the shovels in the sandbox, UA mgmt was having their way with you. I guess that's a win in your book.
 
Enjoy

 

[TWU informer]

Okay. I still stand by my original post. The ESOP was a big part of the reason why UA went in to BK near liquidation. The company was heavily leveraged, bankrolled by wage cuts and using the company as collateral (assets).
 
The fact is this is my opinion based on the facts as I see them. Plain and simple.
 
Remember you lived it as you said, I didn't because my union the TWU new it was a bad idea.
 
Now the members can see, should we follow the opinions of you who have been slammed once (ESOP), again in BK (1113e), and then finally by AMFA (rolling over after talking tough in the 1113c). UA has far more work outsourced than AA even after we went through BK. Flipped unions twice in the last twenty years to no avail.
 
Switching unions doesn't work. Membership involvement does. Why you guys argued about who gets to use the shovels in the sandbox, UA mgmt was having their way with you. I guess that's a win in your book.
 
Enjoy

 
You still pound the same stupid and tired drum of arguement, no matter how many times the "facts" are presented.
 
The AMFA idea still has not been tried, so you cannot possibly claim it has failed.
 
Changing Unions would work if ALL AMT's would change into the SAME union.
 
Your idea and belief is that just because in your view the TWU doesn't suck in this area or that area as bad as others then TWU is best. That BS, every AMT union is failing in one way or another, and stooges like you that pick the fly crap out of the pepper to see something good or better than the others is pure ignorance. The TWU has just taken a different path to failure, but has damn sure, not even close, succeeded.
 
The untried and best answer is clearly for ALL AMT's to get into ONE union together and stop being used by management against one another, and not have stooges like you claiming success when you are failing down a different path. And if ALL AMT's were to get into one union, HANDS DOWN the AMFA Constitution would be the best choice.
 
Why not try the idea first, then claim it doesn't work IF IT FAILS, instead of stupid continuation of the same FAILURE that is proven?
 
AS for your claim about invovlement.
 
When the TWU builds a new local building after membership voting NOT to three times.
 
When James C. Little proves in Federal Court that a "without further ratification" CBA is legal and binding under the TWU Constitution.
 
Then what you must mean by involvement is "come to the union meeting, so we can tell you what we decided is best for you"
 
I wont be wasting another minute being "involved" as the TWU involvement is proven worthless. You have to have a Consitution and Bylaws that clearly place the membership in control before invovlement means jack diddly squat. And the TWU doesn't pass that simple test. Proven Fact!
 
Now run back to the TWU alter and find another piece of fly crap in the failing representation pepper pile that you can justify your ingnorance upon.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Okay. I still stand by my original post. The ESOP was a big part of the reason why UA went in to BK near liquidation. The company was heavily leveraged, bankrolled by wage cuts and using the company as collateral (assets).
 
The fact is this is my opinion based on the facts as I see them. Plain and simple.
 
Remember you lived it as you said, I didn't because my union the TWU new it was a bad idea.
 
Now the members can see, should we follow the opinions of you who have been slammed once (ESOP), again in BK (1113e), and then finally by AMFA (rolling over after talking tough in the 1113c). UA has far more work outsourced than AA even after we went through BK. Flipped unions twice in the last twenty years to no avail.
 
Switching unions doesn't work. Membership involvement does. Why you guys argued about who gets to use the shovels in the sandbox, UA mgmt was having their way with you. I guess that's a win in your book.
 
Enjoy

 
Yeah sure. Just keep making it up as you go, that'll fool everyone.
 
Enjoy your ignorance

 

[MetalMover]

 
 
 
Switching unions doesn't work. Membership involvement does. 

Were we involved on the alliance decision? The loss of profit sharing for a raise? Do we have a say in who gets appointed to those cushy international jobs and their salary and pensions?

 

[Overspeed]

Yeah sure. Just keep making it up as you go, that'll fool everyone.
 
Enjoy your ignorance

You too

My best to you and all your AMFA diehards at UA

 

[Overspeed]

Were we involved on the alliance decision? The loss of profit sharing for a raise? Do we have a say in who gets appointed to those cushy international jobs and their salary and pensions?

You had a say on AFW when you voted no

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

The TWU will save you from yourself....
Look what they have gotten you so far...

 

[MetalMover]

You had a say on AFW when you voted no

Guess you can't answer my question.. How much say do you have in International appointees and their salary and pensions? They will let us vote for the alliance, but no means no union? The profit sharing decision was made on our behalf with not as so much as aheads up. 

 

[xUT]

 
Yeah sure. Just keep making it up as you go, that'll fool everyone.
 
Enjoy your ignorance

wash rinse and repeat lies and disinformation.
Notice how it was AMFA's  fault... LOL
B) xUT

 

[Overspeed]

The TWU will save you from yourself....
Look what they have gotten you so far...

Not concerned. AMFA has minimal interest at US.