TUL mechs

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I guess you were ok with all the AA AMTs in STL getting the boot no matter what their seniority was?  All AA mechs got the boot from STL and all the TWA mechs stayed.

 
OldGuy
 
If I am not mistaken you have said many times here that you have 25+ yrs here at AA, so I wonder if the USAirways guys said since AA is/was in BK we should give them 10/4/2012 how you would like that? I would bet the answer would be "NO".
 
I have always said that each time we get merged/bought out the members should be fairly merged. My Opinion the TWA guys got hosed.
Merging by Occupational time is the only way each companies union members get a fair placement with thier seniority. They get what they had as it falls into the one list. Does it always work out that every one is happy NO, but it is fair. It is just part of the industry that companies come and go.
I would also assume that AA is the only place you have worked so you are a AA Blue blood. Many in our industry have worked at other carriers, some as many as 5, that includes me.
 
Each time we all start at the bottom of the payroll and at the bottom of the seniority list, if you had to do that over and over you would feel a bit different since as we changed companies we did not loose any knowledge. In fact we all had more to offer.
 
O/S is now and will continue to cause any trouble which will keep us at each other thus insuring his TWU will remain in place.
He attacks Bob Owens for his ways then attacks Bob for not doing enough as a TWU officer of 591. It's O/S just one of the TWU supporters
which don't want any change.
 
Merging by occupational/classification time as its called at US is fair for us all. The Blue bloods at AA even feel that the TWA guys should not even get to bid the yrs of vacation they earned as well. At what point do we stop this and work as one group fro the betterment of our class and craft?
 
AMFA at AA in 2014

 

[MetalMover]

 
OldGuy
 
 
I have always said that each time we get merged/bought out the members should be fairly merged. My Opinion the TWA guys got hosed.
 
 

AMFA, Kasher ruled what he deemed FAIR.....Not the TWU and not the IAM......Should AA have assumed their TWA tenured pensions as well?
AA BOUGHT TWA.......That's why it played out the way it did.. Look at the pilots and flight attendants.....The AAers prevailed in court.....
AA MERGED WITH US.....seniorities will be merged......
 
It's over...time to move on....

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFA, Kasher ruled what he deemed FAIR.....Not the TWU and not the IAM......Should AA have assumed their TWA tenured pensions as well?
AA BOUGHT TWA.......That's why it played out the way it did.. Look at the pilots and flight attendants.....The AAers prevailed in court.....
AA MERGED WITH US.....seniorities will be merged......
 
It's over...time to move on....

 
 
MetalMover
 
You are correct Kasher ruled what at the time he thought was fair and what the TWU and IAM had input too.
Did you have a say in it "NO" neither did I. Still does not make it right. I can have an opinion and it does not effect
me at all either way. I was not TWA.
 
I also don't agree with how  the A/T guys got intergrted at SWA but they voted and both airlines mechanics signed off on it.
It was done the democratic way, Both parties had a say. How and what they (TWA guys) will get from AA is not for me to say,
it has nothing to do with me or any other AA mechanic.
 
Accept for the IAM at US and the IBT at UAL most airlines have the pension plans either frozen as our is or turned over to the PBGC.
AA holds your pension and mine so as long as what we are entitled too is not effected, I don't care if AA pays them a million dollars.
 
The IGM attitude here at AA is sickening and needs to change. I am hoping that IF we change to AMFA that will start the process of bringing unity to our class and craft.
I hope that it will be about AMT's and those in our class and craft.

 

[MetalMover]

 
 
MetalMover
 
You are correct Kasher ruled what at the time he thought was fair and what the TWU and IAM had input too.
Did you have a say in it "NO" neither did I. Still does not make it right. I can have an opinion and it does not effect
me at all either way. I was not TWA.
 
I also don't agree with how  the A/T guys got intergrted at SWA but they voted and both airlines mechanics signed off on it.
It was done the democratic way, Both parties had a say. How and what they (TWA guys) will get from AA is not for me to say,
it has nothing to do with me or any other AA mechanic.
 
Accept for the IAM at US and the IBT at UAL most airlines have the pension plans either frozen as our is or turned over to the PBGC.
AA holds your pension and mine so as long as what we are entitled too is not effected, I don't care if AA pays them a million dollars.
 
The IGM attitude here at AA is sickening and needs to change. I am hoping that IF we change to AMFA that will start the process of bringing unity to our class and craft.
I hope that it will be about AMT's and those in our class and craft.

 It's not as simple as the IGM attitude that you say plagues us. Did we give the Eastern people their full time? PanAM? The reality of it all is that seniority is the only thing left that hasn't been taken or negotiated away. And since we are in a seniority bid based world for shift and vacation purposes it will always be a concern and top priority when it comes to mergers and acquisitions. That will not change the minds of the majority.  Most people won;t admit it openly. To say the TWAers were not treated fairly is debatable. Prior to 9-11, AA was in way better shape than they were financially. Do you believe they would survived the aftermath on their own had it not been for AA?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 It's not as simple as the IGM attitude that you say plagues us. Did we give the Eastern people ? their full time? PanAM? The reality of it all is that seniority is the only thing left that hasn't been taken or negotiated away. And since we are in a seniority bid based world for shift and vacation purposes it will always be a concern and top priority when it comes to mergers and acquisitions. That will not change the minds of the majority.  Most people won;t admit it openly. To say the TWAers were not treated fairly is debatable. Prior to 9-11, AA was in way better shape than they were financially. Do you believe they would survived the aftermath on their own had it not been for AA?

 
MetalMover
 
To answer your questions? "NO" Eastern and PanAm were out of business. So getting time would be a no. AirCal guys got their time. It is what it is part of the industry which we work. You are again correct that seniority is all we have, that the companies and unions have not found ways to take away. Do I think TWA would of survived, NO. They would of gone like all the rest of the past carriers. So to get bought out was a good deal for the employees of TWA. But to say they are just lucky they have/had a job sounds just like a management type statement. That is just one reason our class and craft is where it is. The TWU members here at AA, have been the leaders in the downward spiral of our class and craft. Putting AA first just to say we work for the #1 airline. The TWU it self over the yrs has used the seniority of one group against the new hires.  ABC scale, 5&5, just go back in the old contract books and you will see just what the TWU has done to us over the yrs. 1991 & 1995 contracts.
 
The TWU has pitted us against them type of thinking in most. When we (all AMT's) should be working toward the same thing. Equal pay and benefits across the industry.
Pipe dream yes, but why have to start at bottom of pay scale each time we change companies? Days off and shift I agree the bottom if a new hire,  but a merger or acquisition it should be merged by occupational seniority. 
 
Lets hope that when it is all said and done the list of mechanics, in our class and craft which includes AMT's/Auto/Facilities/Utility/Parts washers/OSM's etc... get merged by title group in a fair way that will have a harmonious out come so as a group we can get back all the money and benefits the TWU negotiated away.  Just like some on the line and or in Tulsa feel their group is better, so we have the line vers O/H debate.
This as well keeps us at one another and only helps the company and TWU play us all.
 
Tulsa, the AA line guys and the USAirways guys (ALL) need to work together to remove the TWU get merged under one union and work toward a JCBA as fast as possible so that its NOT yrs like what is going on over at UAL with the CAL/UAL guys.   

 

[Slopoke]

 
 AirCal guys got their time.

 
 
The big reason Air California AMTs got all of their occupational seniority is because their union was the TWU. Who knows what would have happened if they were represented by another union.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
 
The big reason Air California AMTs got all of their occupational seniority is because their union was the TWU. Who knows what would have happened if they were represented by another union.

Slopoke
 
My point was that they were a different company, some here still feel they should not of gotten it either.
 
CAL/UAL are the same union as well and still don't have it intergrated.  I was not here at the time AirCal was bought but I would assume there were
many then that did not want them merged with all their time. No matter what union.

 

[Overspeed]

 
the government stepped in due to the flight attendants for TWA being stapled to the bottom not M&R.

 
Chuck, you know what was done in M&R was not right to treat 30 year AMTs like they were lucky to have a job. Management does that, not us. We should have given them fair treatment in regards to their time. How many times did we hear AA AMTs that had five years yell at TWA guys that they were acquired and were lucky they had a job?
 
AMFA didn't do that to the AirTran AMTs. We should not have even let that seniority issue get in that idiot arbitrator's hands. I would have been in favor of some form of dovetailing even if it did put my down the list. What we did in the TWU combined with what happened with the APA and APFA led to the government stepping in.

 

[Overspeed]

I guess you were ok with all the AA AMTs in STL getting the boot no matter what their seniority was?  All AA mechs got the boot from STL and all the TWA mechs stayed.

 
No I'm not. The STL guys should have been able to be laid off and bump with a consistent seniority date. Not 4/10 if you go here, or 25% if you go there, or 100% if you go to a TWA only station. What a joke.

 

[Overspeed]

 
OldGuy
 
If I am not mistaken you have said many times here that you have 25+ yrs here at AA, so I wonder if the USAirways guys said since AA is/was in BK we should give them 10/4/2012 how you would like that? I would bet the answer would be "NO".
 
I have always said that each time we get merged/bought out the members should be fairly merged. My Opinion the TWA guys got hosed.
Merging by Occupational time is the only way each companies union members get a fair placement with thier seniority. They get what they had as it falls into the one list. Does it always work out that every one is happy NO, but it is fair. It is just part of the industry that companies come and go.
I would also assume that AA is the only place you have worked so you are a AA Blue blood. Many in our industry have worked at other carriers, some as many as 5, that includes me.
 
Each time we all start at the bottom of the payroll and at the bottom of the seniority list, if you had to do that over and over you would feel a bit different since as we changed companies we did not loose any knowledge. In fact we all had more to offer.
 
O/S is now and will continue to cause any trouble which will keep us at each other thus insuring his TWU will remain in place.
He attacks Bob Owens for his ways then attacks Bob for not doing enough as a TWU officer of 591. It's O/S just one of the TWU supporters
which don't want any change.
 
Merging by occupational/classification time as its called at US is fair for us all. The Blue bloods at AA even feel that the TWA guys should not even get to bid the yrs of vacation they earned as well. At what point do we stop this and work as one group fro the betterment of our class and craft?
 
AMFA at AA in 2014

 
I don't attack anybody. I point out what he should be doing and his inconsistencies just as you point out with me. It's the right thing to do. I think people like you and Bob drive change that is needed. Is the TWU perfect? No. Is it better than the alternative of AMFA? Based on what I have witnessed at NW (near complete destruction of all jobs), AS (loss of all remaining overhaul jobs at OAK), UA (gave in to mgmt's demands to outsource almost all airframe overhaul and blame the IAM), and SW (kept extending an agreement while mgmt kept outsourcing at higher and higher rates). We are better off tweaking what we have and making it better.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Chuck, you know what was done in M&R was not right to treat 30 year AMTs like they were lucky to have a job. Management does that, not us. We should have given them fair treatment in regards to their time. How many times did we hear AA AMTs that had five years yell at TWA guys that they were acquired and were lucky they had a job?
 
AMFA didn't do that to the AirTran AMTs. We should not have even let that seniority issue get in that idiot arbitrator's hands. I would have been in favor of some form of dovetailing even if it did put my down the list. What we did in the TWU combined with what happened with the APA and APFA led to the government stepping in.

Thats what the TWU CBA as well as the IAM CBA contained. That if the seniority could not be decided, an arbitrator would do it. Kasher did WHAT HE FELT WAS FAIR....
He got the case
He heard the arguments
He decided the case.
Case Closed!
If you don't truly believe that TWA got life support from AA's purchase, then you are quite delusional. That is exactly what the case was. 
Seniority is all we have left!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
I don't attack anybody. I point out what he should be doing and his inconsistencies just as you point out with me. It's the right thing to do. I think people like you and Bob drive change that is needed. Is the TWU perfect? No. Is it better than the alternative of AMFA? Based on what I have witnessed at NW (near complete destruction of all jobs), AS (loss of all remaining overhaul jobs at OAK), UA (gave in to mgmt's demands to outsource almost all airframe overhaul and blame the IAM), and SW (kept extending an agreement while mgmt kept outsourcing at higher and higher rates). We are better off tweaking what we have and making it better.

 
 
O/S
 
You have attacked Bob, about the pay raises and many other issues with 591, and his version of unionism.
 
The TWU is far from Perfect, you are right there. They have given into the Company so much its sickening.
 
If it wasn't for the AMFA guys at NW we would not be making the money we are today. All Carriers NOW have outsourced the overhauls.
AA will do more as we get further into the merger. They will not keep PHX/TUL/PHL/DWH/CLT and what ever other O/H we will have.
AA will combine and shuffle work once there is a JCBA and the seniority lists are merged. Just look at the contract language we have.
 
WE will be better if we get rid of the TWU and reboot the system that has failed the mechanics here at AA and US.
 
The IAM & TWU Have failed my class and craft, this alliance is all about dues. WE can't let this trafisty happen here.
 
What I do question is why at the Time of the aquisition of TWA you were not blasting the TWU for that.

 

[dfw gen]

 
No I'm not. The STL guys should have been able to be laid off and bump with a consistent seniority date. Not 4/10 if you go here, or 25% if you go there, or 100% if you go to a TWA only station. What a joke.

these were your clowns that come up with the plan

 

[MetalMover]

these were your clowns that come up with the plan

In all fairness to the clowns, Kasher came up with the plan.

 

[700UW]

PHX only does C-checks and some mods, PHL is a line hangar only and is required for the ETOPS program, CLT and PIT to overhaul and are currently protected in the IAM/US CBA. I do see the company wanting to close PIT sooner or later.