StraaightTaalk
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- Sep 10, 2003
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The people of HP need to be very wary of the eagerness of the US employees to have this thing proceed. Red flags ahead.
The Official Us/hp Ideas For A Happy Merger Thread
- Thread starter El Gato
- Start date
PSA1979
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
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StraaightTaalk said:
Now why would that be? Do you think the US employees want to take over AWA and destroy their company?
Maybe the US employees realized that since the 90's our company has been for sale and we have just gotten used to it. We want to work for a successful company and that will never happen if we remain US with the management we have.
We don't want to be out of jobs, we know we are the best in the business as far as employees go and we have alot to offer any other airline. But quiting and going on the bottom of some one else's list is not for most of us.
I myself have at least 15 good years left in me to provide the best customer service that I provide now. We are the reason this old pig is still around. Ask any of our loyal customers, they'll tell you.
StraaightTaalk
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- Sep 10, 2003
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PSA...
I agree. In all airlines, it is the employees who keep the company going, DESPITE management's best efforts.
The problem in a merger is that one plus one DOES NOT equal two, and when heads start to roll, seniority, for the unionized groups, is usually the sole determinant of who stays and who goes. That is why things get ugly so quickly. Everybody is looking for their piece of the pie, and somebody always get shortchanged.
Best of luck to all of us in this incredibly messed-up industry.
I agree. In all airlines, it is the employees who keep the company going, DESPITE management's best efforts.
The problem in a merger is that one plus one DOES NOT equal two, and when heads start to roll, seniority, for the unionized groups, is usually the sole determinant of who stays and who goes. That is why things get ugly so quickly. Everybody is looking for their piece of the pie, and somebody always get shortchanged.
Best of luck to all of us in this incredibly messed-up industry.
Twicebaked
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- May 22, 2003
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FA Mikey said:
From a F/A standpoint, US and AWA are both AFA union. It is in the AFA bylaws. The union itself has an obligation to uphold the bylaws and protect all of it's members. Some may not agree with the intergration, but it IS in the bylaws to be done that way. I don't think the union (international level) will allow anything otherwise. The international as nothing to gain as they are not local for AWA or US. They are an "outsider" in a sense.
Twicebaked
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- May 22, 2003
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Nobody said anybody was getting furloughed. On the US end they must offer another buy-out if a furlough is needed.StraaightTaalk said:
There appears to be ONLY 2 HP people on the board (and one is retired). All the people having a panic attack are from AA/UA.
For Customer Service HP doesnt even have people in a lot of cities. They are contracted out (many from the old HP/CO codeshare days.) Does anyone know of any cities East of the Mississippi where HP has their own Customer Service employees? US has been cut so much in a lot of places that I'm sure the lists could easily be blended without layoffs. How many US people are even in LAS/PHX/LAX, etc? I'm sure they could easily fit in with the HP staffing with little overlap. Same for the Fleet Service group.
As for the pilots, a fence should be easy enough to do since they all basically fly the same type of aircraft (with a couple exceptions) and US has been short pilots to begin with (many cancellations since the first of the month due to crew shortages.) With the way CCY has been not replacing anyone who leaves for a while, and the number of US pilots who will be leaving in the next couple of years, there shouldnt be displacements with a merger.
At US we're working bare minimum in almost every group as it is. We have 18 people leaving in our station alone by Oct so there might even be openings at some of the US stations for movement in the not too distant future when all of those who took the buyout are finally granted a leave date.
For Customer Service HP doesnt even have people in a lot of cities. They are contracted out (many from the old HP/CO codeshare days.) Does anyone know of any cities East of the Mississippi where HP has their own Customer Service employees? US has been cut so much in a lot of places that I'm sure the lists could easily be blended without layoffs. How many US people are even in LAS/PHX/LAX, etc? I'm sure they could easily fit in with the HP staffing with little overlap. Same for the Fleet Service group.
As for the pilots, a fence should be easy enough to do since they all basically fly the same type of aircraft (with a couple exceptions) and US has been short pilots to begin with (many cancellations since the first of the month due to crew shortages.) With the way CCY has been not replacing anyone who leaves for a while, and the number of US pilots who will be leaving in the next couple of years, there shouldnt be displacements with a merger.
At US we're working bare minimum in almost every group as it is. We have 18 people leaving in our station alone by Oct so there might even be openings at some of the US stations for movement in the not too distant future when all of those who took the buyout are finally granted a leave date.
L
luvn737s
Guest
Why are the same folks who are most critical of how US bungled the PI/PS/U merger tout it as the only way to merge with HP? What's that definition of insanity...?
L
luvn737s
Guest
US dead? It certainly has had it's illness treated with leaches, but it's not dead yet despite this.pitguy said:Two dead companies coming together. Gee let me run in to invest.
[post="264524"][/post]
HP? Why is conservative growth and making money with WN as your prime competitor considered dead? I see far more airlines facing train wrecks in the future than I see HP. Let's see, they had arguably the most reviled man in aviation at the helm for 10 years (Franke) yet they still grew. They faced 9/11 with no money in the bank, yet they still grew. Their biggest competitor has grown 3X and mostly in their hubs, yet HP grows. The ATA deal got away, but HP grew. Sure they need to cultivate their people to raise the aggregate experience and longevity level, thus improving service, but they are far from dead.
And now they want to buy a bigger competitor without using a dime of their own money. I think Doug Parker may name Carleton Sheets as his new CEO.
PSA1979
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 360
- 6
FA Mikey said:
No the choice will not be the companies. AWA f/a's contract with the company states:
If the Company is the surviving carrier, the Company will integrate the two Flight Attendant groups in accordance with AFA Merger Policy if both groups are AFA-represented, and in accordance with Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny Mohawk LPP’s (Labor Protective Provisions) if Flight Attendants of the Company’s merger partner are not represented by AFA.
If the Company is not the surviving carrier, the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate the two Flight Attendant groups in the same manner as stated in (a) of this Paragraph.
US f/a's contract states:
2. In the event the Company is merged with another airline whose flight attendants are represented by the Association, the flight attendant seniority lists shall be merged in accordance with the AFA merger policy.
Pretty cut and dry to me. Of course I am looking at it as a reasonably intelligent person, so the way you see it may be very different
h34r:Thanks, that is what I was wondering whether there was contractual language or if was simply union bylaws and/or policy.PSA1979 said:No the choice will not be the companies. AWA f/a's contract with the company states:
If the Company is the surviving carrier, the Company will integrate the two Flight Attendant groups in accordance with AFA Merger Policy if both groups are AFA-represented, and in accordance with Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny Mohawk LPP’s (Labor Protective Provisions) if Flight Attendants of the Company’s merger partner are not represented by AFA.
If the Company is not the surviving carrier, the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate the two Flight Attendant groups in the same manner as stated in (a) of this Paragraph.
US f/a's contract states:
2. In the event the Company is merged with another airline whose flight attendants are represented by the Association, the flight attendant seniority lists shall be merged in accordance with the AFA merger policy.
Pretty cut and dry to me. Of course I am looking at it as a reasonably intelligent person, so the way you see it may be very different
[post="264623"][/post]
Dea Certe
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Shocking as this may be, seniority integration isn't the only issue with a merger. Believe me, there's corporate cultures, company policies, service procedures and a bunch of stuff that really wears you out.
During the PSA/U merger, everything that was PSA was ripped out over night. Literally, on April 8th carts were removed from the planes and everything was "reorganized." I remember hunting around for basic stuff.
Paperwork changed dramatically too. Seems we were forever filling out forms (three copies using carbon paper!) and that sort of thing. New computer systems for the agents with new codes and there was a huge learning curve. New boarding passes, new procedures for boarding. Former PSA agents were tearing their hair out trying to keep check-in and boarding moving along smoothly. New baggage check-in tags.
It's really hard to explain all the details but I do remember how hard it was for everyone to make so many changes all at once. New ways of bidding, new ways to sign-in. New trip pairings, new bid sheets, new procedures for trip trades.
New phone numbers. New voices at the other end of the line.
New "professional courtesies" in how the carts were set up, how the galleys were left. How we changed planes at the jetways. New names for things. I tell you, the devil is in the details. And are lots of details!
And this was just for the employees! The west coast former PSA customers had to learn all the new stuff too. Many of PSA's Executive Flyers just decided to take up American Airlines offer to triple their miles and join AA's FF plan.
I really missed a lot of those customers!
Dea
During the PSA/U merger, everything that was PSA was ripped out over night. Literally, on April 8th carts were removed from the planes and everything was "reorganized." I remember hunting around for basic stuff.
Paperwork changed dramatically too. Seems we were forever filling out forms (three copies using carbon paper!) and that sort of thing. New computer systems for the agents with new codes and there was a huge learning curve. New boarding passes, new procedures for boarding. Former PSA agents were tearing their hair out trying to keep check-in and boarding moving along smoothly. New baggage check-in tags.
It's really hard to explain all the details but I do remember how hard it was for everyone to make so many changes all at once. New ways of bidding, new ways to sign-in. New trip pairings, new bid sheets, new procedures for trip trades.
New phone numbers. New voices at the other end of the line.
New "professional courtesies" in how the carts were set up, how the galleys were left. How we changed planes at the jetways. New names for things. I tell you, the devil is in the details. And are lots of details!
And this was just for the employees! The west coast former PSA customers had to learn all the new stuff too. Many of PSA's Executive Flyers just decided to take up American Airlines offer to triple their miles and join AA's FF plan.
I really missed a lot of those customers!
Dea
EyeInTheSky said:
I am most definitely NOT a United Airlines employee.
That said, with all due respect, I think that many people here are approaching labor integration with an overdose of wishful thinking. For any airline looking to acquire HP, there will be only one objective in mind: bringing US' CASM down to somehwere under 10 cents/mile under CURRENT industry conditions. The only way for Parker & Co. to do this is to impose a new labor paradigm that will make everything thus far seem like a cakewalk.
Take US' ground employees, for example - the main labor consideration probably won't be how to credit seniority - rather, the question will be whether to keep US ground staff vs. contracting out all of US' non-hub stations en masse. The ALPA/AFA groups might be able to pull off a slotting/staple combo with a fence, depending on whether HP thinks it best to yank maxed-out seniority emps. from transcon/TATL ops.
Fragmentation/scope language won't matter much - HP would almost certainly insist that the US unions abandon their protective language, and HP's employees really won't give a da*n as to how the employees of a failed airline are treated, so long as their position is not negatively impacted.
