Flying low
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The first 1/2 of this post sounds like the latest teamster flyer posted in tulsa.
Teamster Organizer caught forging Authorization Cards
- Thread starter CIO
- Start date
ThirdSeatHero
Veteran
You start with an attempt at deception.
I never questioned the 3.9% wage cut. Here is what I posted(emphasis mine)...
You have and continue to try and belittle AMFA with generalized statements such as those at hand. Again, your post ...
Your quoted contract language betrays your ignorance of the UAL bankruptcy situation.
AMFA gave nothing to the company. At the time of the agreement ALL pensions at UAL had been seized by the PBGC - Do you deny this? They were already gone.
The problem that remained was despite the government seizure, the CBA still contained language that required UAL to maintain a pension plan. Therefore it had to removed, and thus the language you cited.
As for continued attempts at lies and deception regarding UAL heavy maintenance, you obviously have no clue as to the differences between regular Section 6 negotiations and 1113c bankruptcy proceedings.
This statement is sheer ignorance ....
AGREED TO CONTINUE?
We were in bankruptcy court! Do you honestly think you are going to convince anyone that heavy overhaul could've been brought back in house during bankruptcy, when said heavy overhaul had been given up less than three years prior during the same bankruptcy?
Are you truly that ignorant?
1113c bankruptcy proceedings ARE NOT section 6 negotiations.
BigMac
Veteran
[sub]Anyone else find it odd that the TWU has been ordering TWU shirts from the Teamsters?[/sub]
[sub]Below the TWU logo it says IBT. On the tag is the Teamsters logo and says made by the Teamsters.[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213403_zps6341a50e.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213332_zpsc2e00b8a.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213302_zps69bde5d3.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213147_zps0e56fea5.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213116_zps2685e3a0.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213050_zps7e9c24c9.jpg[/sub]
[sub]Below the TWU logo it says IBT. On the tag is the Teamsters logo and says made by the Teamsters.[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213403_zps6341a50e.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213332_zpsc2e00b8a.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213302_zps69bde5d3.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213147_zps0e56fea5.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213116_zps2685e3a0.jpg[/sub]
[sub]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/dingo_rds/IMG_20130318_213050_zps7e9c24c9.jpg[/sub]
Overspeed
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Yawn. Same old BS Bob.
The UA 3.9% was the second cut after the 1113e initial pay cuts of 13% were imposed on the membership without a vote two years earlier.
We agreed to a freeze versus an outright termination which is better than the pension termination and elimination of retiree medical at UA during BK in 2005. We got nine more years of pension credit as a result of the 2003 concessions and retirees kept their retiree medical coverage even after BK.
Show me one contract that limits foreign outsourcing. We do have a cost cap of 35% which is far less than UA's AMFA/IBT language which agrees to all existing outsourcing done under AMFA/IBT/IAM plus an additional 20% of all current inhouse spend. UA OSS percentage is 52% while AA's is 12% when you include TAESL as insourced.
Do you know how much the TAESL revenue is? No and neither do I. You are making broad hypotheticals that are not based on facts so that means your comments fall under the Gilboy definition of Bob is full of BS.
Yes we did give up many other things is concessions but it was like a cafeteria plan. You had to reach a cost savings target and any combination of items had to get you to a number. Ask Chuck, he was your president at the time. Bottom line is that even though we gave up all many things, you neglect to state that for nine years we had thousands making more than those UA AMTs that used to worked airframe overhaul in IND, OAK, and SFO. But they are expendable in the Bob Owens (AMFA/AMP) playbook.
Bob why don't you finally come out of the closet and state that you hate the TWU and join Dave, Ken, and Chuck in getting AMFA cards signed? At least you would have some integrity like Chuck and Ken when they gave up their TWU positions to back what they believe in. You are worse than the person this thread is about, the IBT organizer forging cards. Even that guy took a position in back his union.
You have no back bone because you take the fence rider route. You take your $22K a year plus expenses, galavant around the system on your A12s, and haven't worked a crew in years all because you are a TWU president. You make false promises to get you back in office (like every other politician) and then when you can't deliver you blame everyone else. Grow a pair Bob, be like Ken and Chuck and step out and be the real fighting bad ass you claim to be. Resign and circulate the little yellow cards. Grow a pair Bob.
So what part is BS? we dont have the worst contract in the industry where we gave up stuff that nobody else gave up such as starting with just one week of vacation, 5 sick days, 20 hours of extra pay for working 10 Holidays, 10 IOD days, straight time for training, no doubletime etc? Which one is BS?
Yep, and UAL didnt have $5billion in the bank thats why the court authorized a 13% paycut. Four months after that with over a Billion in cash we gave AA a 17.5% wage cut but a 25% compensation cut. 13% plus 3.9% is still less than 17.5 let alone 25% and we werent even in BK.
It wasnt our call, it was the PBGCs call. Either way our pension was termonated. We got nine more years of a promise and we more than paid for it with the concessions we gave up to keep it.
Uniteds contract does not allow NB to be outsourced overseas. I believe UPS also has limits on foreign outsourcing.
The company said from 12% to 15% increase in the cap if TAESL is closed.
Who is full of BS now? You quote BLS stats that say that most NWA workers who left, at top pay, earn less than they did before, well they would have made less had they stayed as well. You have zero proof that we made more for nine years than any of those workers. Ten years after and we still make less than we did before, we have proof of that. Can you prove that all the guys who left NWA earn less than if they would have stayed?
Classic, someone who hides behind an alias calling out someone who isnt and saying he has no backbone. You truly are pathetic. Accusation but no proof. Every time you claim I made promises I ask you to provide proof and get nothing but silence. maybe thats your style. You cant dispute what I say because its factual so you engage in two paragraphs of a personal attack. Classic.
Why wont you come out of the closet and be a man and say who you are? We know the answer. I will continue to do as I do because the people who put me here want me to keep doing it, I never forgot where I came from and where I have no problem going back to. I beleieve being an Aircraft Mechanic is a noble job and provides value and we should be compensated accordingly, not discounted like pork bellies on the commodities market to keep overpaid false unionists rolling around in six figure salaries. I will miss the $22k though, but I'm sure I can make it up somewhere else. Sure it will be a hit, especially with the lousy deal people like you helped jam down our throats with all your lies and deceptions.
As I told that moron Gillespie, I dont hate the TWU, I take pride in its IRA roots and the goals set out by Mike Quill and others, I hate what people like you have done to it. At AA you have turned it into what Mike Quill fought against when they formed the TWU 75 years ago-A Company Union. Read the book, In Transit, or Mike Quill:Himself" All the excuses for concessions that the company unions that were in place in the NYC Mass Transit syatem used back then we hear from people like you today.
Maybe Lee Sehamm wrote it for them.
Flying low
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Maybe, and just maybe there are no seamstresses in the twu...
AMFA local 11 routinely looks for union shops when they buy goods and services like these.
I agree. At least they looked for union made products and Made in the USA.
So it happens to be made by Teamsters union members. USA by Union workers. I have no problem with that.
BigMac
Veteran
My point is that (here in Tule) they are spending X amount campaigning against the IBT yet they spend X amount ordering shirts from them.
Are they buying T shirts from the Teamsters directly or are they buying T shirts from a company that the workers are represented by the Teamsters?
“1113 c proceedings are not Section 6 negotiations”. Well now, we are starting to get somewhere. You may want to tell that to your friends Mr Owens, or Vortilon, or 1AA or all of the other experts that have said just the opposite and criticized the TWU for dealing with the same restrictions and legal limits that AMFA had to deal with in 2005. You are correct that the Company needed AMFA to agree that it could terminate its defined benefit pension plan without being required to set up an equivalent defined benefit plan. Otherwise United would have been liable under the contract and under the Railway Labor Act for massive damages. So AMFA did just what CIO said – it agreed to termination and, in addition, that the Company had no further obligation to pay defined pension benefits. Did it have a choice? I doubt it. If AMFA hadn’t agreed that the Plan could be terminated the Court probably would have imposed the relief. Of course, you could have adopted Brother Owens strategy –the one he criticizes the TWU for not adopting-- and let the Court impose and then go fight for the right to strike in response in federal court. But, no-one, at least not anyone with the responsibility for the lives of actual working people, is crazy enough to do that.
So, like the TWU, you did the best you could do with a bad situation. The TWU agreed, not to termination of the pension plan, but to a freeze—something much less. Do you really think it had any choice? As you said Section 1113 is not Section 6 and if the TWU hadn’t agreed the Court would have imposed the freeze and, perhaps, worse. Do you think that reality has stopped your friends from pounding the TWU for “giving up” their pension? Not hardly. You say the Court was not going to reimpose restrictions on outsourcing after the IAM had agreed to lift them in the first 1113 proceeding. I’ll go you one better – the Company needed the additional foreign outsourcing relief AMFA gave up because, without it, they would not have achieved the necessary savings. If AMFA hadn’t agreed would the Court have imposed it? –possibly, maybe even probably. The TWU agreed to something much less – 35% outsourcing, a percentage well below anything else in the industry. It was still a painful concession, but if we hadn’t agreed does anyone doubt the Court would have imposed something as bad or worse?
You accuse CIO of “belittling” AMFA for making the difficult concessions that it faced when UAL filed for its second round of relief under Section 1113. What do you think goes on everyday…every hour…on this board with respect to the TWU, which was operating under the very same law as AMFA. Yes, there is a big difference between negotiations that occur under 1113 c of the Bankruptcy Code and Section 6 and I believe CIO understands that. In fact, that is just his point. So if you want to be treated fairly and not belittled, take the oldest advice around and “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”
It's not that simple Realitycheck. We AMFA supporters are not just focused on the most recent TWU bungled contract. This goes way back. Years and years of the TWU screwing AMTs at AA. How many different pay scales, and classifications of aircraft mechanic did the TWU agree to over the years. Often pitting overhaul against the line, and visa versa. The 95 contract still pisses me off, when I think about it! Stupid TWU, using a 2 year old survey as a guide - knowing full well, the industry was on an upswing - agrees to TA a 6 year deal with only a 1.5% increase each year. Gets it to pass through - you guessed it, divide and conquer. Well not just that - you see, back then the TWU counted the ballots - imagine that - the TWU somehow got the result they wanted. Thanks Ed Kosiatek.
You can tap dance, and segue from the TWU record of deception over the years all you want - we won't forget.
ThirdSeatHero
Veteran
Your attempt to requalify CIOs remarks are noted.
I however do not agree with your assessment as you make the claim above that he was making the same distinction in his previous attempts too belittle AMFA.
I need only page back through a month or two on the American forum to find posts of CIOs where he clearly was trying in many threads to blame AMFA for the loss of all heavy maintenance at UAL. Yet only just recently after being proved repeatedly wrong,has his story changed to .... "agreed to continue"
The pension issue is no different. This wasn't something AMFA could've kept in any fashion the government had seized all the pensions at UAL, yet he and others try to spin it as an AMFA failure at negotiation. That is called deliberate deception.
As far as doing unto others ... don't preach to me, I've made no claim against the TWU.
Overspeed
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And I won't forget AMFA taking NW AMTs on an ill-advised strike costing them all but 800 jobs. I won't forget AMFA turning their backs on the AS AMTs at the OAK base when they all lost their jobs. I won't forget AMFA conceding the outsourcing at UA and an additional 20% of existing spend. I won't forget that AMFA lost over 80% of their membership due to outsourcing and members disgusted of their record of failure at UA and Horizon.
AMFA, a losing option for overhaul and then some.
