Yep; U "managed" the West coast right into the ground. Tagging flights onto chronically late ones from the east coast, stinky corned beef bagels SFO-SNA; it was all so appalling. No clue then, no clue now. Passengers loved those MD-80s transcon too with just the two potties for 150 people; sometimes just one after the other gave out somewhere west of Witchita; ah, pretty.
Southwest Did Not Run U Out Of The West Coast
- Thread starter hopethingswillbeok
- Start date
madness24012
Newbie
- Mar 26, 2004
- 8
- 0
I dont think we should have changed everything in the west. It was doing great the way it was. US killed it...
Absolutely. When I said buying PSA was a mistake, I'm only saying that from the following perspective:OldGuyinPA said:
If you buy a bunch of low-cost airlines and turn them into high-cost airlines, it's a mistake.
Ever wonder what would have happened if the shoe was on the other foot, and PSA bought US Airways?
OldGuyinPA
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 700
- 8
I would bet there would still be a smile....
ELP_WN_Psgr
Senior
- Nov 29, 2003
- 419
- 0
Now, this is not a denigration of PSA. But there were some very real reasons that PSA was for sale. Folks are overlooking these reasons.
I also need to set history straight just a little bit here.
#1 PSA had done some dumb things over the years that cost them some money.....the purchase of a radio station or two, rental car agency, and the L-1011s come to mind. They also had let their costs get away from them. Towards the end of their life cycle...they were just beginning to go head-to-head against Southwest with less than satisfactory results. PSA was taking WN on between ABQ and LAX and was absolutely, positively, getting their butt handed to them in a paper bag. PSA was a great airline, but management had given in at some critical times on wage demands and their ASM cost was already a cent or cent-and-a-half north of where Southwest's costs were.
#2 Everybody talks about a young lawyer from Southwest who learned everything he needed to know about running an airline by watching PSA and duplicated their success in Texas. This is fallacious for several reasons. First of all, that "young lawyer", namely Kelleher, had absolutely nothing to do.....nada zilch nothing.....to do with Southwest's operations until the early 80s. He lawyered and that was about it.
The real truth is Southwest did have some people out in California looking at the PSA operations, but the manuals were from other sources...the ground ops/reservations/stations operations manuals were TTa, the flight operations manuals were primarily American in tone (Don Ogden, VP Flight Operations...was ex-AA and hAAd been since C.R. Smith made them open the window on the DC-3 to stick the little flag on the nose of the plane as it taxiied to the terminal). maintenance manuals had a Braniff tone (Jack Vidal) and the inflight service manuals, if not pirated from Frontier, read an awful lot like Frontier's.
The reason PSA let Southwest take a look at their operations is they thought they were going to be able to sell some used planes to them. Actually, Southwest thought they were too...until Boeing made them an offer to sell 4 white tails that were parked for $4 Million apiece....a pretty good price on new airplanes.
When Southwest bought the new planes the exchange student business stopped pretty quick. They did adapt some of the PSA peculiarities to their operation (cash register tickets, tape recorded manifests). They also used the PSA one size-fits all-cheap fare approach until it almost bankrupted them, at which time Southwest introduced a peak/off peak pricing policy of $26/$13 on the Dallas-Houston run (San Antonio they went to half price on every flight).
Don't read "Nuts"...don't take a buddy's word for it...if you want to know how things actually transpired there in 1971, read Lamar Muse's "Southwest Passage."
I think the earlier poster nailed it on the head......trying to overlay Allegheny's "cool northern efficiency" on a genteel Southern carrier and a popular low fare California carrier did little more than create a high cost behemoth with multiple personality disorder (can we say "Sybil"?)
Southwest didn't run US out of California. Southwest has never really run anyone out of anywhere. What they do is create a revenue environment where higher cost carriers do not want to spend much time. Will that happen in PHL? Beats my pair of jacks. We'll wait and see, and it will be interestng to watch. Based on the doubling of the service pattern before service is inaugurated....another 14 flights after the first 60 days....I would surmise that WN is taking their PHL incursion very seriously and will stop at nothing to make sure it succeeds. And it will. The big question is can U figure out a way to succeed alongside the ugly planes?
One thing I don't think is the solution at this point is evisceration of employee wages. Your prez/CEO is fond of telling customers that flying Southwest..,.well, you get what you pay for. This is similarly true in terms of paying employees to a certain extent. The goal ought to be figuring out a way to reduce the fixed costs and overhead......the company's structure is broken. If he cant's see that, he shouldn't be entrusted with managing anything more difficult than a weinie wagon in New Orleans' French Quarter.
Best Regards
TxAg
I also need to set history straight just a little bit here.
#1 PSA had done some dumb things over the years that cost them some money.....the purchase of a radio station or two, rental car agency, and the L-1011s come to mind. They also had let their costs get away from them. Towards the end of their life cycle...they were just beginning to go head-to-head against Southwest with less than satisfactory results. PSA was taking WN on between ABQ and LAX and was absolutely, positively, getting their butt handed to them in a paper bag. PSA was a great airline, but management had given in at some critical times on wage demands and their ASM cost was already a cent or cent-and-a-half north of where Southwest's costs were.
#2 Everybody talks about a young lawyer from Southwest who learned everything he needed to know about running an airline by watching PSA and duplicated their success in Texas. This is fallacious for several reasons. First of all, that "young lawyer", namely Kelleher, had absolutely nothing to do.....nada zilch nothing.....to do with Southwest's operations until the early 80s. He lawyered and that was about it.
The real truth is Southwest did have some people out in California looking at the PSA operations, but the manuals were from other sources...the ground ops/reservations/stations operations manuals were TTa, the flight operations manuals were primarily American in tone (Don Ogden, VP Flight Operations...was ex-AA and hAAd been since C.R. Smith made them open the window on the DC-3 to stick the little flag on the nose of the plane as it taxiied to the terminal). maintenance manuals had a Braniff tone (Jack Vidal) and the inflight service manuals, if not pirated from Frontier, read an awful lot like Frontier's.
The reason PSA let Southwest take a look at their operations is they thought they were going to be able to sell some used planes to them. Actually, Southwest thought they were too...until Boeing made them an offer to sell 4 white tails that were parked for $4 Million apiece....a pretty good price on new airplanes.
When Southwest bought the new planes the exchange student business stopped pretty quick. They did adapt some of the PSA peculiarities to their operation (cash register tickets, tape recorded manifests). They also used the PSA one size-fits all-cheap fare approach until it almost bankrupted them, at which time Southwest introduced a peak/off peak pricing policy of $26/$13 on the Dallas-Houston run (San Antonio they went to half price on every flight).
Don't read "Nuts"...don't take a buddy's word for it...if you want to know how things actually transpired there in 1971, read Lamar Muse's "Southwest Passage."
I think the earlier poster nailed it on the head......trying to overlay Allegheny's "cool northern efficiency" on a genteel Southern carrier and a popular low fare California carrier did little more than create a high cost behemoth with multiple personality disorder (can we say "Sybil"?)
Southwest didn't run US out of California. Southwest has never really run anyone out of anywhere. What they do is create a revenue environment where higher cost carriers do not want to spend much time. Will that happen in PHL? Beats my pair of jacks. We'll wait and see, and it will be interestng to watch. Based on the doubling of the service pattern before service is inaugurated....another 14 flights after the first 60 days....I would surmise that WN is taking their PHL incursion very seriously and will stop at nothing to make sure it succeeds. And it will. The big question is can U figure out a way to succeed alongside the ugly planes?
One thing I don't think is the solution at this point is evisceration of employee wages. Your prez/CEO is fond of telling customers that flying Southwest..,.well, you get what you pay for. This is similarly true in terms of paying employees to a certain extent. The goal ought to be figuring out a way to reduce the fixed costs and overhead......the company's structure is broken. If he cant's see that, he shouldn't be entrusted with managing anything more difficult than a weinie wagon in New Orleans' French Quarter.
Best Regards
TxAg
OldGuyinPA
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 700
- 8
SWA wasn't even a pimple on the West Coast back in 1986. When USAir left 13 cities in one fell swoop it gave SWA and AS the ability to grow overnight. It gave you the money to fund your expansion to the rest of the USA. Yes, PSA bought radio stations, Queen Mary and L1011's...that's because the airline was a cash cow and had made money in about 35 of the 40 years it operated.
SWA is an imposter of PSA. Get it straight. SWA is now doing all the things that they learned from PSA. It's a matter of history, and SWA imitated PSA.
Contrary to all those who have no memory of the way it really was....
PSA...Catch our Smile............
SWA is an imposter of PSA. Get it straight. SWA is now doing all the things that they learned from PSA. It's a matter of history, and SWA imitated PSA.
Contrary to all those who have no memory of the way it really was....
PSA...Catch our Smile............
ELP_WN_Psgr
Senior
- Nov 29, 2003
- 419
- 0
Old_Guy:
certainly, you are entitled to your opinion, even if you are wrong.
Southwest is about as much like PSA as a fish is like a bicycle (to paraphrase from an old t-shirt).
Southwest is the way it is because most of the original folks at WN were frustrated TTa folks who knew what they would like to do with an airline if and when they could ever get out from under the heavy-handed regulation of the CAB and Earl Mckaughan.
PSA was a great company. I have already conceded that. The L-1011s and the radio stations weren't exactly brillian moves but hey, Southwest's early company cars were AMC Gremlins. What can I say?
Southwest was supposed to have been like PSA, but the conditions in Texas were not the same as conditions in California, so the evolutionary process produced something completely different. Think of it like evolution on this planet.....we might have all evolved from an early mammal like the shrew, but there are considerable differences between humans and baboons. Although if you watch the tv show Airline, some of the differences tend to get blurred.
Have a great weekend!
certainly, you are entitled to your opinion, even if you are wrong.
Southwest is about as much like PSA as a fish is like a bicycle (to paraphrase from an old t-shirt).
Southwest is the way it is because most of the original folks at WN were frustrated TTa folks who knew what they would like to do with an airline if and when they could ever get out from under the heavy-handed regulation of the CAB and Earl Mckaughan.
PSA was a great company. I have already conceded that. The L-1011s and the radio stations weren't exactly brillian moves but hey, Southwest's early company cars were AMC Gremlins. What can I say?
Southwest was supposed to have been like PSA, but the conditions in Texas were not the same as conditions in California, so the evolutionary process produced something completely different. Think of it like evolution on this planet.....we might have all evolved from an early mammal like the shrew, but there are considerable differences between humans and baboons. Although if you watch the tv show Airline, some of the differences tend to get blurred.
Have a great weekend!
Certainly PSA in 1986 wasn't in the best of financial shape. The L1011s (which, incidentally weren't a bad move except in hindsight) and Queen Mary didn't help. But they had a solid fleet of MD-80s, competitive fares on their routes, and were doing fine up and down the coast.
Against AA, they would have won handily. Who knows if WN would have bothered coming in with such force had PS still been holding the fares down? They most likely would have found other more profitable fish to fry, given their penchant for low-hanging fruit.
TxAg,
Against AA, they would have won handily. Who knows if WN would have bothered coming in with such force had PS still been holding the fares down? They most likely would have found other more profitable fish to fry, given their penchant for low-hanging fruit.
TxAg,
gave me a most needed chuckle. Thanks!
bankernclt
Member
- Aug 26, 2002
- 32
- 0
Affordable is ont in U's vocabulary. A lot of good it does to have a high price on a ticket if people won't buy them. Instead, people would rather drive for an hour or two and save hundreds of dollars. I am not convinced that Charlotte wouldn't have a nice O&D market if it wasn't for the high prices. That is why most of the traffic is connections. Will U ever learn?OldGuyinPA said:
ITRADE
Veteran
No - AirCal wa bought first.wings396 said:
There was also Western which was bought by Delta.
aerosmith
Senior
I personally heard it from Seth's mouth southwest was the reason for leaving the west coast.
OP
hopethingswillbeok
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 167
- 0
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #28
I also heard out of Seth's mouth, All the other airlines would start business select, they would be jeolous of us for starting it. How many times did they brag, we are the first in the industry to start this wonderful product.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #29
Piney,
I sure others can give you more details, but....
The first 6 or 8 rows had special seats that were able to convert from 6 across to 4 across configuration. IIRC, the center seat on each side would telescope in and out to accomplish this. The cabin divider was also moveable.
These were installed on the 737-200, and the theory was to have an "expandable" first class cabin - though I can't remember if the pitch was greater than coach or not.
IIRC, the seats didn't work that well - kept breaking - and the center seat wasn't very comfortable when used.
Jim
I sure others can give you more details, but....
The first 6 or 8 rows had special seats that were able to convert from 6 across to 4 across configuration. IIRC, the center seat on each side would telescope in and out to accomplish this. The cabin divider was also moveable.
These were installed on the 737-200, and the theory was to have an "expandable" first class cabin - though I can't remember if the pitch was greater than coach or not.
IIRC, the seats didn't work that well - kept breaking - and the center seat wasn't very comfortable when used.
Jim
Piney,
Business Select was another of managements' "bright ideas" that wasted tons of money. Business Select was the term applied to the seating on the aircraft. The seats were adjustable from 2 seats to three seats or three seats to 2 seats depending on the bookings in Business Select. The seats were hard as rocks and not well received by the passengers. Management unveiled these seats to the employees. The employees tried to tell management the problems with this type of seating, but were totally ignored. After many complaints from passengers, the seats were restuffed to improve comfort. Eventually Business Select was removed from the aircraft. Those that actually had hands-on dealings with Business Select could give you more details. I only saw them when they were unveiled and heard the complaints when pax called res.
Business Select was another of managements' "bright ideas" that wasted tons of money. Business Select was the term applied to the seating on the aircraft. The seats were adjustable from 2 seats to three seats or three seats to 2 seats depending on the bookings in Business Select. The seats were hard as rocks and not well received by the passengers. Management unveiled these seats to the employees. The employees tried to tell management the problems with this type of seating, but were totally ignored. After many complaints from passengers, the seats were restuffed to improve comfort. Eventually Business Select was removed from the aircraft. Those that actually had hands-on dealings with Business Select could give you more details. I only saw them when they were unveiled and heard the complaints when pax called res.
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