Somebody, please....

[W:EXCH:INVOL]

[blockquote]
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On 1/12/2003 9:43:41 PM chipmunn wrote:

US Airways employed about 4,700 pilots on August 8, 2002 when the ALPA restructuring agreement was ratified.

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?

In addition, ALPA has agreed to reduce its pension multiplier from 2.4 to 1.8 percent that will provide a 25 percent hit.

ALPA and the Company are seeking legislative relief to permit the PBGC to approve retirement fund restoration. If a legislative solution cannot be obtained with the federal government, there is reason to believe US Airways and ALPA will find mutually acceptable "creative solutions" to this problem, so the airline can successfully restructure and emerge from bankruptcy.

Chip
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[/blockquote]
Thanks. I'll assume that the answer is yes.

INVOL

 

[Biffeman]

The A330 capt made almost $300,000 a year

 

[chipmunn]

An A330 Captain, of which there are about 100 total, now make less than a B737 Captain did pre-restructuring agreements.

Chip

 

[N421LV]

[blockquote]
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One final thought on whether a pilot really deserves the compensation they get, out of the many highly compensated professions (doctors, lawyers, accountants etc.) I can only think of one that I can go and buy a program from Microsoft for $45 and learn that occupation in a matter of weeks and that is a pilot - I am still looking for the heart surgery simulator.

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[/blockquote]

real world, if it was that easy then why aren't you a major airline pilot?

One final thought for you....would you be willing to put your family on a plane piloted by someone who learned to fly using Microsoft Flight Simulator?

Thought so...

 

[A320 Driver]

[blockquote]
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On 1/13/2003 5:27:53 AM pitguy wrote:

Chip said above:
"The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?"


I reply:
That is a huge amount. I never realized that the average pilot must have made about $250,000 before this all started. WOW!!!



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[/blockquote]


We didn't...that's the WHOLE POINT!

A320 Driver

 

[txskygal]

Very, very, respectfully; I'm a capitalist. From that perspective, I don't have a belief that one's compensation should be limited. If someone makes hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars per year, well; we should all be so lucky. I ALSO don't believe that life is fair.....one doesn't necessarily deserve what one makes; but, unless we become a socialistic (or other) society, these facts and salary disparaties will always exist. I like being the "master-of-my-ship" and having the glorious opportunities to rise up above my beginnings; to try to change my life and my destiny. I'm so, so, very sorry that each of you is suffering in your very individual ways; where your future is so uncertain. God bless each of you. One can suffer; whether one makes $500,000 per year, or $30,000.

 

[delldude]

can anyone tell me the percentage that management is in the total U employee headcount and what percentage is for their wage cost compared to the rest of the groups or can you tell me where i may find this info?thank you

 

[N305AS]

Real World, you truly are a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance.

Rather than hit you with the points others have already mentioned, I'll add one that is very infrequently brought up concerning pilots' compensation:

You've already been told that it takes many many years for a pilot to finally earn those "big bucks" that doctors and lawyers command almost immediately, but did you know that every six months a pilot is required to undergo an FAA physical? And that if he or she does not pass that rigorous physical exam, that they cannot fly anymore?

A pilot's salary doesn't increase in a straight line upwards; the pay scales are back-ended so that very senior pilots with many many years are the ones making the "big bucks," and they have a limited number of years that they can command those salaries due to the rule requiring pilots to retire at age 60.

That, coupled with the fact that each of their twice-yearly physicals could possibly end their careers entirely, are two more valid reasons why pilots make what they do.

 

[MrAeroMan]

[blockquote]
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On 1/13/2003 10:27:31 AM chipmunn wrote:

An A330 Captain, of which there are about 100 total, now make less than a B737 Captain did pre-restructuring agreements.

Chip
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[/blockquote]
Chip...Just out of curiosity what is that figure pre and post restructuring?

 

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
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On 1/13/2003 1138 AM N305AS wrote:

Real World, you truly are a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance.

Rather than hit you with the points others have already mentioned, I'll add one that is very infrequently brought up concerning pilots' compensation:

You've already been told that it takes many many years for a pilot to finally earn those "big bucks" that doctors and lawyers command almost immediately, but did you know that every six months a pilot is required to undergo an FAA physical? And that if he or she does not pass that rigorous physical exam, that they cannot fly anymore?

A pilot's salary doesn't increase in a straight line upwards; the pay scales are back-ended so that very senior pilots with many many years are the ones making the "big bucks," and they have a limited number of years that they can command those salaries due to the rule requiring pilots to retire at age 60.

That, coupled with the fact that each of their twice-yearly physicals could possibly end their careers entirely, are two more valid reasons why pilots make what they do.


------------------------------------------------------------

That is a fair point, and one I'd like to add to.

The avergage percentage of OJI's per thousand employees, nationwide, in all industries, is 5%.

In the airline industry, that percentage multiplies to 17%. And as you can hardly get hernias and back injuries classified as OI's, that number is woefully understated.

While every group at U suffers from OI's, the bulk of these injuries fall on fleet service. It is impossible to get in proper lifting positions in a cargo bin, and the repetitive nature of what we do, along with the weight, leads to musculoskeltal problems, hernias, etc.

One of the job descriptions is the ability to repetitively lift 70 lbs, which not coincidentally, is the weight limit of checked baggage. That limit assumes you're standing, and able to use leg and buttock muscles to lift. What would the true limit be assuming a kneeling position? I've had one doctor that specializes in OI say while kneeling, the limit should be 25 to 30 lbs.

After an OI, you are at the the tender mercies of the state and the company. I would not wish the financial stress one must go thru when suffering an OI at U on my worst enemy.

I would argue the ramp rats are due a bit more than the 'burger flipping' wages many think we deserve. You don't suffer many career ending injuries saying 'you want fries with that?'

 

[cavalier]

Cavalier, If you havent heard anyone complaining about the level of compensation of present and past CEOs and staff, golden parachutes and bonuses you have had your head in the sand!
---------------------------------------------------------------
First I was referring to THIS thread.

Second, yes, I heard it. But I don't agree with it. We all can do as well instead of crying about it. We all have choices, mine is is not to cry woe is me, what's yours? OH, never mind, I know.

 

[usjacket]

Cavalier, If you havent heard anyone complaining about the level of compensation of present and past CEOs and staff, golden parachutes and bonuses you have had your head in the sand!

 

[ClueByFour]

[blockquote]
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On 1/13/2003 11:06:19 AM txskygal wrote:

Very, very, respectfully; I'm a capitalist. From that perspective, I don't have a belief that one's compensation should be limited. If someone makes hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars per year, well; we should all be so lucky. I ALSO don't believe that life is fair.....one doesn't necessarily deserve what one makes; but, unless we become a socialistic (or other) society, these facts and salary disparaties will always exist. I like being the "master-of-my-ship" and having the glorious opportunities to rise up above my beginnings; to try to change my life and my destiny. I'm so, so, very sorry that each of you is suffering in your very individual ways; where your future is so uncertain. God bless each of you. One can suffer; whether one makes $500,000 per year, or $30,000.
----------------
[/blockquote]

You cannot look at pilots' compensation from a capitalistic standpoint--they are a unionized workgroup. As the U and UA pilots are now discovering the hard way, when market forces really come to bear, their previous level of compensation is just not supported by the marketplace. Period. Until now, the side effects of unionization have hidden the effects of the market on the pilots' compensation curve (the union effects, particularly the scope effect is what has driven the bottom end of said compensation curve so low, but that's another discussion entirely) have ensured that the pilot will make more than the market can/wants to pay. This is not capitalism.

Real capitalistic situations are market driven. I'm in IT. Two years ago, I could have (and did) all but extort outrageous salaries and benefits in exchange for my services, and lived high on the hog. I can't do that in the present environment because the market won't support it and there are a lot of bright and talented people on the street in my field, which in turn depresses the premium I command (or, _if_ I get to command a premium at all, for that matter). The pilot workforce, as a whole, has never had to deal with real market forces--it has been insulated by trade unionism. In short, it is not really accurate (or fair) to bemoan anyone for bemoaning the pilots and their compensation. I personally earn mine, but I earn it in the _free_ market.

That's half the problem. The other half is ALPA (and APA, and all the rest) and the tendency to favor the old guard, eat their young, and so forth. This goes back to the RJ FO on food stamps and the 744 or 330 Captain (pre-restructuring) and his Porsche. The compenstation curve must be flattened out and retooled on the upper end (such that a pilot can make _good_ money over his entire career, instead of suffering at the beginning and living too high on the hog at the end).

FWIW, I like being the proverbial armchair quarterback and puttering around in a rented 172 when I have the time--I don't have the "drive to fly" that it would take to break into a career as a pilot (without millitary hours). If the compensation curve were a bit more sane, I think there would be a lot more people willing to give the flying professon a whirl--most, like me, are probably scared off by the initial rat-race and other associated (and rather low paying) crap one has to endure (as a byproduct of the discussion above....)

 

[real world]

[blockquote]
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On 1/13/2003 10:27:41 AM N421LV wrote:

[blockquote]
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One final thought on whether a pilot really deserves the compensation they get, out of the many highly compensated professions (doctors, lawyers, accountants etc.) I can only think of one that I can go and buy a program from Microsoft for $45 and learn that occupation in a matter of weeks and that is a pilot - I am still looking for the heart surgery simulator.

----------------
[/blockquote]

real world, if it was that easy then why aren't you a major airline pilot?

One final thought for you....would you be willing to put your family on a plane piloted by someone who learned to fly using Microsoft Flight Simulator?

Thought so...


----------------
[/blockquote]
I am not a pilot, becasue I do not want to be one. I am quite happy with my carrer.

No, of course I wouldn't put my family on a plane piloted by someone who learned how to fly on a flight simulator by Microsoft. However the point was to mearly provide a comparative analysis of the excess compensation provided to pilots in comparision to there amount of overall education and the skills required to perform in the position relative to a Medical Doctor, who earn a comparable salary. You would have to agree that a medical doctor puts in a lot more time to become a doctor than a pilot.

 

[Oliver Twist]

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