Somebody, please....

[chipmunn]

US Airways employed about 4,700 pilots on August 8, 2002 when the ALPA restructuring agreement was ratified.

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?

In addition, ALPA has agreed to reduce its pension multiplier from 2.4 to 1.8 percent that will provide a 25 percent hit.

ALPA and the Company are seeking legislative relief to permit the PBGC to approve retirement fund restoration. If a legislative solution cannot be obtained with the federal government, there is reason to believe US Airways and ALPA will find mutually acceptable "creative solutions" to this problem, so the airline can successfully restructure and emerge from bankruptcy.

Chip

 

[Atlantic]

Had a friend in high school that said everything twice.
He ended up being "Joie two times".
Chip is making a point here.
This is not high school.
Get it?

 

[chipmunn]

US Airways employed about 4,700 pilots on August 8, 2002 when the ALPA restructuring agreement was ratified.

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?

In addition, ALPA has agreed to reduce its pension multiplier from 2.4 to 1.8 percent that will provide a 25 percent hit.

ALPA and the Company are seeking legislative relief to permit the PBGC to approve retirement fund restoration. If a legislative solution cannot be obtained with the federal government, there is reason to believe US Airways and ALPA will find mutually acceptable "creative solutions" to this problem, so the airline can successfully restructure and emerge from bankruptcy.

Chip

 

[Atlantic]

Yes,
It was knocked down by two. One from Iowa and one from Montana. More farm animals than voters.
Go figger.

 

[chipmunn]

US Airways employed about 4,700 pilots on August 8, 2002 when the ALPA restructuring agreement was ratified.

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?

In addition, ALPA has agreed to reduce its pension multiplier from 2.4 to 1.8 percent that will provide a 25 percent hit.

ALPA and the Company are seeking legislative relief to permit the PBGC to approve retirement fund restoration. If a legislative solution cannot be obtained with the federal government, there is reason to believe US Airways and ALPA will find mutually acceptable "creative solutions" to this problem, so the airline can successfully restructure and emerge from bankruptcy.

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

US Airways employed about 4,700 pilots on August 8, 2002 when the ALPA restructuring agreement was ratified.

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?

In addition, ALPA has agreed to reduce its pension multiplier from 2.4 to 1.8 percent that will provide a 25 percent hit.

ALPA and the Company are seeking legislative relief to permit the PBGC to approve retirement fund restoration. If a legislative solution cannot be obtained with the federal government, there is reason to believe US Airways and ALPA will find mutually acceptable "creative solutions" to this problem, so the airline can successfully restructure and emerge from bankruptcy.

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

US Airways employed about 4,700 pilots on August 8, 2002 when the ALPA restructuring agreement was ratified.

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?

In addition, ALPA has agreed to reduce its pension multiplier from 2.4 to 1.8 percent that will provide a 25 percent hit.

ALPA and the Company are seeking legislative relief to permit the PBGC to approve retirement fund restoration. If a legislative solution cannot be obtained with the federal government, there is reason to believe US Airways and ALPA will find mutually acceptable "creative solutions" to this problem, so the airline can successfully restructure and emerge from bankruptcy.

Chip

 

[ClueByFour]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/12/2003 9:39:40 PM chipmunn wrote:

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Not that it is particuarly fair in the grander scheme of things, but which is a more "reasonable" request:

1. Asking a pilot making $250k a year to take a haircut down to $110k a year.

or

2. Asking a mechanic making $60k a year to take a haircut to $38k a year? (insert the average CWA cut here--it makes the same point)

Chip, the pilots took a bath because they did (and still do) represent the highest average compensation on the property, by very large margin. I doubt that a large percentage of people who top out at less than $80k are going to show a lot of sympathy for a group who did top out at over $200k. This business about the "smallest group giving the most" is a bit misleading simply because that small group also had the highest compensation per member by a factor of magnitude. You gave the most due to the insane level of compensation you started with.

(as an aside)

Don't get me wrong--I think that pilots should be compensated well. I disagree with the current system--it's stupid for a 744 pilot to be bringing home $300k. The job does not warrant that type of compensation. It's also stupid for a RJ FO to be on food stamps at 18-20k. The curve has to flatten, and the top end has to become more realistic. Perhaps, once things settle out from the fundamental change in the industry that is currently ongoing, ALPA (and APA, and all the rest) realize this as well.

 

[Atlantic]

Clue,
There is no line pilot today making 250. A 330 c/o is making less than a B 300 c/o before the give backs started.

 

[Atlantic]

Had a friend in high school that said everything twice.
He ended up being "Joie two times".
Chip is making a point here.
This is not high school.
Get it?

 

[real world]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/12/2003 10:01:51 PM ClueByFour wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/12/2003 9:39:40 PM chipmunn wrote:

The pilot group represents 10 percent of the employees, is 30 percent of the total labor expense, and has provided 60 percent of the concessions totaling $566 million per year.

The 30,000 non-pilot employees have provided $474 million in concessions or $92 million per year less than the pilots.

The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Not that it is particuarly fair in the grander scheme of things, but which is a more "reasonable" request:

1. Asking a pilot making $250k a year to take a haircut down to $110k a year.

or

2. Asking a mechanic making $60k a year to take a haircut to $38k a year? (insert the average CWA cut here--it makes the same point)

Chip, the pilots took a bath because they did (and still do) represent the highest average compensation on the property, by very large margin. I doubt that a large percentage of people who top out at less than $80k are going to show a lot of sympathy for a group who did top out at over $200k. This business about the "smallest group giving the most" is a bit misleading simply because that small group also had the highest compensation per member by a factor of magnitude. You gave the most due to the insane level of compensation you started with.

(as an aside)

Don't get me wrong--I think that pilots should be compensated well. I disagree with the current system--it's stupid for a 744 pilot to be bringing home $300k. The job does not warrant that type of compensation. It's also stupid for a RJ FO to be on food stamps at 18-20k. The curve has to flatten, and the top end has to become more realistic. Perhaps, once things settle out from the fundamental change in the industry that is currently ongoing, ALPA (and APA, and all the rest) realize this as well.
----------------
[/blockquote]

You make some good points on over inflated pilot compensation, the fundamental change with our current situation in bankruptcy is that is has removed the leverage that the pilots normally wield over an airline during contract negotiations. The threat of a shutdown in asset intensive business is not an option and the pilots have used that leverage to increase their salaries well beyond reality.

Pilots love to give the excuse that their schooling cost a lot of money and that the fact that they had to make little income while learning to fly etc. Well if you compare a pilot to a Doctor: the education that a Doctor must endure is much longer and more intensive 9 years versus 4 years (and a four year degree is not even required at most airlines). The apprenticeship / internship are much shorter however the pay is similar. The hours worked are very different a doctor typically puts in 48 hours straight, twice a week while a 141 carrier pilot will never fly more than 85 hours a month, no matter where they are in their career.

One final thought on whether a pilot really deserves the compensation they get, out of the many highly compensated professions (doctors, lawyers, accountants etc.) I can only think of one that I can go and buy a program from Microsoft for $45 and learn that occupation in a matter of weeks and that is a pilot - I am still looking for the heart surgery simulator.

 

[cavalier]

So I guess Chip and his co-workers are guilty of avarice from what I am reading. But are the accusers innocent of envy?

All sin is equally repugnant to God.

Me, I didn't take my flying lessons seriously and flunked out, so I am happy Chip and his co-workers are being rewarded well for their efforts which were not handed to them.

I don't see anyone complaining about the level of compensation the CEO and staff of past and present receive, or all the golden parachutes and bonuses handed out over the years. Chip is an easy target because he is open, an easy punching bag. Instead of slamming him and his group , join them if you are so unhappy with your station.

 

[luv2fly]

[/blockquote]

I can only think of one that I can go and buy a program from Microsoft for $45 and learn that occupation in a matter of weeks and that is a pilot - I am still looking for the heart surgery simulator.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Yes, and we all know that makes you a qualified to fly a commercial airliner.
Your stupidity shines brightly.

 

[pitguy]

Chip said above:
"The average annual pilot concession is an incredible $120,000 per year. How much is enough? Should a pilot give $130,000, $140,000, $150,000 or more per year?"


I reply:
That is a huge amount. I never realized that the average pilot must have made about $250,000 before this all started. WOW!!!

 

[delldude]

i'm respectfully refraining from pilot bashing as a new years resolution.