Siegel - Gangwal

[oldiebutgoody]

Seems to me the issue here is trust. If Labor trusted what management says, and management trusted what labor says, negotiations go smoothly and quickly. In an environment of apprehension, where each side TOTALLY distrusts the other, as has been the case here for a long time, both sides have to hire all kinds of professional help to seek the truth. From what I've seen here at U, the present management has no idea how to run an airline, but they are great at threatening people and getting concessions. They wonder why business travellers won't pay more for our "full service" airline, when in reality our service is way worse than many of the low fare carriers (largely because of the clueless cuts. Doesn't matter what kind of food you sell or how nice the seat is, if you can't get folks where they need to be close to the time they need to be there). I'll bet most of management STILL thinks this is purely an employee problem; that the lowly employees should be giving up days off to work. They have NO IDEA that there are legalities involved, as when last week three hours before a flight scheduling called to try to change my PT to make me legal for the trip, when I still had 6 hours before I was even legal. What happens to crews that accept such assignments? I hope nothing bad happens, since you can count on the usual support from the company, that is, NONE! From what I'm reading here and other places, this stuff is happening daily. Back to my original point. If both sides trusted each other, and didn't feel that there were underlying "agendas", not only would negotiations go smoother, but day-to-day operations would, as well.

 

[xoxo]

A friend of mine non-reved with a crew that had just done an Aruba over night and on their way back from Aruba a Mr. Dave Seigel was boarded first and was in first class and was on the itinerary as Mr. Seigel, so the crew asked if he was "DAVE" and he said "no, I get that all the time when I fly" but the crew knew it was him "DUGH". That was in the beginning of June. But, maybe he flew and express flight from SXM to AUA, so he could be discreit about it.

 

[LavMan]

First of all I have not been banned from here, second of all boof1967 is the only name I post under on Yahoo, the others are imposters, and I have not posted on Yahoo in months so try again.

 

[tadjr]

Regardless of what you think about him, you think you'd at least want to know what the CEO of your company looks like. Must make him (or the imposter) feel real good to know. On the other hand, not having anyone know what you look like might work out good for Dave. If you dont know what he looks like, check the inflight magazine next time "Mr. Siegel" is on the plane!

 

[ClueByFour]

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On 8/4/2003 12:42:01 PM xoxo wrote:

Seatacus, Not worried over it, just thought it was a little funny.He can do whatever he wants with his time and money. Just thought it was interesting because he lied about who he was.

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Given the history of what some folks will do (notably when UA mechs downed a bird that Wolf was on enroute from IAD-CDG during the merger mess), can you really blame him for not owning up to it?

I had somebody point him out to me in the club at PIT once. He does seem to be rather veritically challenged.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

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On 8/4/2003 12:46:54 PM tadjr wrote:


Regardless of what you think about him, you think you'd at least want to know what the CEO of your company looks like. Must make him (or the imposter) feel real good to know. On the other hand, not having anyone know what you look like might work out good for Dave. If you dont know what he looks like, check the inflight magazine next time "Mr. Siegel" is on the plane!

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Except for the horns protruding from either side of his head he looks pretty average.

 

[PITbull]

LOL....

 

[PITbull]

AeroMan,

Solutions thought out by labor, goes to deaf ears when you have a mangagment that does not respect any of its labor groups or any employee and considers employees nothing but "liabilities". Solutions thought out by employees and taken by mangagement only occurs when you have a "synergistic" relationship, and work together as a team NOT against one another as is current here at U.

Leafleting is a "legal action", and the only way to get management's attention is by "bad press". Especially when the stock hits the market. NO one wants to invest in a company that has "labor unrest".

At this point, most are well OVER the concession "gig". We've accepted this as we have agreed to it as majority of labor, whether by gun point or fear, or plain submission to keep afloat.

THE MAJOR POINT, and I don't think you implied anywhere in your post, IS THE CONSTANT VIOLATIONS OF ALL AGREEMENTS BY THIS MANAGEMENT.


THIS MUST STOP BY ANY MEANS THAT WE HAVE. And we will force compliance, if management insists on violating. The 5% demonstrated the power in "collective voice" that Labor has, AND IT WAS HEARD AND WILL CONINUE TO BE HEARD. Management does not have the "right" to take MORE or ignore what was not ratified...kapeesh friend? And if the "noise" that's made is too loud for you, and you don't want to follow, then get out of the way.

 

[MrAeroMan]

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On 8/4/2003 10:05:27 PM PITbull wrote:

AeroMan,

Solutions thought out by labor, goes to deaf ears when you have a mangagment that does not respect any of its labor groups or any employee and considers employees nothing but "liabilities". Solutions thought out by employees and taken by mangagement only occurs when you have a "synergistic" relationship, and work together as a team NOT against one another as is current here at U.

Leafleting is a "legal action", and the only way to get management's attention is by "bad press". Especially when the stock hits the market. NO one wants to invest in a company that has "labor unrest".

At this point, most are well OVER the concession "gig". We've accepted this as we have agreed to it as majority of labor, whether by gun point or fear, or plain submission to keep afloat.

THE MAJOR POINT, and I don't think you implied anywhere in your post, IS THE CONSTANT VIOLATIONS OF ALL AGREEMENTS BY THIS MANAGEMENT.


THIS MUST STOP BY ANY MEANS THAT WE HAVE. And we will force compliance, if management insists on violating. The 5% demonstrated the power in "collective voice" that Labor has, AND IT WAS HEARD AND WILL CONINUE TO BE HEARD. Management does not have the "right" to take MORE or ignore what was not ratified...kapeesh friend? And if the "noise" that's made is too loud for you, and you don't want to follow, then get out of the way.



----------------​

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're all about making "noise" and having no substance to back up any claims. So go ahead and stand on your soapbox in front of the terminal and hand out your leaflets. Just don't complain when you bring home more leaflets than you left with or that nothing gets changed when you have nothing of substance to offer to solve the problems that exist. Maybe one day you'll understand....kapeesh?

 

[PITbull]

AeroMan,

Reread my post, I edited it and added a few more things I forgot the first round.

The 5% is a crucial example of how collective spirit and voices get action.
the "squeaky wheel does get the grease".

The attorneys don't need any retainer back, its called violation of contract language. NO sir, we are not stupid folks. You have a profound disrespect for Union and maybe you had a bad experience and view them as all inept and useless. BUT, I AM HERE TO TELL YOU FROM THE FRONT SEAT, THAT WE ARE NOT USLESS, SIR.

We have never had to deal with a mangement that blatantly disregards employees and contracts, and they are not "covert" about it. It is as plain as daylight. Mangement loves to see us going in all different directions. This is how they cripple labor. WE are all on the same page now. Just wait.

You are now starting to see "action" by labor. It may have taken us a year because most leaders were in "shell shock" as I wrote out during xmas on these boards, but that is well over. We all have our issues with regard to contract violations and have to deal with those separately. But what we all have in common is the violations in "sick", and Medical coverages and denials that have changed drastically and were not agreed to. Those issues will be dealt with, but this mangement will not agree to "expedited" arbitration. Why? Because they want to take advantage of the cost savings, so they are draging their feet. With regard to our particular issue on the new "reserve system", we are going to "mediation" on that on August 11.

Its all about "compliance". WE WILL FORCE COMPLIANCE by every legal means we have.

 

[MrAeroMan]

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On 8/4/2003 7:49:09 AM LavMan wrote:


Dave is said to be a fan of SXM, or maybe he was in the Cayman's checking on his secret account where he stole our 5%.

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No one stole the money from anyone. It was all agreed upon and approved by the union vote. If the majority didn't want the reduction it would've been voted down. That didn't happen. You guys gotta get over this move on. The battles you're fighting have already been decided. Before you know it the next battle will be lost due to lack of preparation now. Yes management has made mistakes but so has the unions. There is plenty of blame to go around. Stop pointing fingers and start providing some solutions. If they don't listen provide another solution and keep providing solutions until they respond. Ultimately you'll hit on a winning proposal and when that happens stand up and take the credit. If nothing else you'll have a history of providing solutions to solve some of the problems facing the airline. The only solutions I've seen on here lately is how the airline is going to get shut down. Hate to burst your bubble but that's not a solution that'll get anyone's attention. You can leaflet and picket all you want but until you provide some serious solutions you're right where you started the day before bankruptcy.

 

[MrAeroMan]

----------------
On 8/4/2003 10:05:27 PM PITbull wrote:

AeroMan,

Solutions thought out by labor, goes to deaf ears when you have a mangagment that does not respect any labor group or any employee. Solutions thought out by employees and taken by mangagement only occurs when you have a "synergistic" relationship, and work together as a team NOT against one another.

Leafleting is a "legal action", and the only way to get management's attention is by "bad press". Especially when the stock hits the market. NO one wants to invest in a company that has "labor unrest".

At this point, most are well OVER the concession "gig". We've accepted this as we have agreed to it as majority of labor, whether by gun point or fear, or plain submission to keep afloat.

THE MAJOR POINT, and I don't think you implied anywhere in your post, IS THE CONSTANT VIOLATIONS OF ALL AGREEMENTS BY THIS MANAGEMENT.

THIS MUST STOP BY ANY MEANS THAT WE HAVE. Management does not have the "right" to take MORE or ignore what was not ratified...kapeesh friend?

----------------​

Pitbull,
NO ONE said they had a right to take anything from anyone that wasn't negotiated especially not me. I have read many comments posted regarding what was and wasn't negotiated. It seems to me the attorneys that were employed by the unions should return their retainer as they allowed you to sign documents that you didn't understand. I don't think you fully comprehend what you negotiated and the result is you are behind the eight ball looking for a way out to save face.
It seems to me if all the unions joined together and stood up daily beating the drum that eventually someone would listen especially if you had a message that was positive and well thought out. That seems to be the biggest problem. Everyone seems to be going their own direction and the result is you've got a chinese firedrill going on at every turn. Everyone is shooting from the hip and the result is you lose each and every battle. What you've been doing hasn't worked so far so logically it's time to change approaches. Leaflets may be legal but not very effective in my opinion.

 

[BIGDOG]

It must be nice to on vacation..

I'll be making $13.01 per hour working for mainline express.

GOOD BYE VACATIONS...HELLO SECOND JOB

JUST TO MAKE ENDS MEET

 

[MrAeroMan]

----------------
On 8/4/2003 10:54:14 PM PITbull wrote:

AeroMan,

Reread my post, I edited it and added a few more things I forgot the first round.

The 5% is a crucial example of how collective spirit and voices get action.
the "squeaky wheel does get the grease".

The attorneys don't need any retainer back, its called violation of contract language. NO sir, we are not stupid folks. You have a profound disrespect for Union and maybe you had a bad experience and view them as all inept and useless. BUT, I AM HERE TO TELL YOU FROM THE FRONT SEAT, THAT WE ARE NOT USLESS, SIR.

We have never had to deal with a mangement that blatantly disregards employees and contracts, and they are not "covert" about it. It is as plain as daylight. Mangement loves to see us going in all different directions. This is how they cripple labor. WE are all on the same page now. Just wait.

You are now starting to see "action" by labor. It may have taken us a year because most leaders were in "shell shock" as I wrote out during xmas on these boards, but that is well over. We all have our issues with regard to contract violations and have to deal with those separately. But what we all have in common is the violations in "sick", and Medical coverages and denials that have changed drastically and were not agreed to. Those issues will be dealt with, but this mangement will not agree to "expedited" arbitration. Why? Because they want to take advantage of the cost savings, so they are draging their feet. With regard to our particular issue on the new "reserve system", we are going to "mediation" on that on August 11.

Its all about "compliance". WE WILL FORCE COMPLIANCE by every legal means we have.

----------------​

Pitbull,
NO maam!! I do not have a disrespect for unions and your insinuation is baseless. What I do have a problem with is inept people running anything including the unions and the company. Airways has more than it's fair share in both regards and it's that issue that I have a problem. Neither the unions nor the company has put forth ANY kind of thinking outside the box that will be needed to ensure this company makes it beyond the repayment schedule for the ATSB loan. I'm scared for this company and it's employees as the future gets more cloudy each day. If your contracts are being violated then it's well within your rights to persue arbitration and let the judge determine who's right but one thing is for certain and that is the unions were taken to task on the language of the contract.
It's time for the employees and the unions to step up and offer some solutions. If it was me I'd start with the fare structure. Good ol' B. Ben and Dave are working with a business model that depends on the business traveler to pay exorhibantant fares to "subsidize" the leisure market. That business model is forever broken and the quicker they realize that and move to something that makes more sense the quicker the company will regain profitability. Put your people to work on that issue and come up with some logical solutions in a positive way and see what happens. If nothing happens do it again, and again, and again. Eventually, if the heat is high enough, someone will listen.

 

[PITbull]

AeroMan,

When did you come on these boards?

I see that you joined the same day I did.

There have been many threads by employees and Pax with regard to ideas and solutions. I don't know what you are talking about. You haven't been reading these threads carefully. Maybe its for lack of a defense on your position, but read "Negative Air", and there are many other posts folks started with just that in mind. Simplifying fare structure has been discussed ad nausem.
Senior mangagement has been e-mailed numerous times by all employees on ideas and solutions to help bring about a profit. Specifically customer care ideas to bring back repeat business. Customers have to have a reason to be loyal, and presently, outside of the "rank" this management fallen short with policies and procedures that provide excellent customer care for repeat business.


Management's focus is only on "cost savings" to turn a profit. I fear that they don't know how to operate an airline carrier such as ours. When they attempt, they make the same mistakes, because they use the same paradigm and they can't comprehend that the industry has shifted as mrplanes has stated on these boards over and over again. Hopefully, management will one day wake up BEFORE its too late.

Will we give up on giving suggestions to management? ...not until the "cows come home". So, figure out another way to complain about unions cause IMO, you collided into a brick wall.