Seniority Integration

[javaboy]

exactly how much money is America West paying for USAirways?
more specifically how much money is America West putting into the deal?

 

[xoxo]

Since when did AWA buy U? That is a new one. And yes U is in BK, but, without U or some other carrier saving AWA, they also would be in BK by the end of 06. AWA is not doing so well. Just because they are hiring does not mean they are in the clear. U was hiring in 99 and 2000,2001...and they were doing bad too. But, it all fell apart after 9/11. No one knew that U was in such bad shape because our CEO was raping us.

 

[tadjr]

Fences work to some degree for pilots and flight attendants, but it pretty much ignores what to do in the other 60%+ of the workforce. 

SFO, LAX, SAN, LAS, MSY, etc. where you'll have more of a 50/50 split of employees from both sides.

I also think it's naive to think that former PSA folks would have no interest in returning to the Pacific timezone.  And I'll guess that's the first place you'll see HP employees getting slowly squeezed out when there's a downturn or if/when US/HP has to downsize.

[post="275846"][/post]​

I'm still trying to get some info from HP employees on exactly WHAT cities they have agents in? C/S and Ramp. In TPA, they are contracted by CO (no HP agents). I know that when I've traveled on HP in various cities, I've seen CO agents handling them (leftover from their codeshare days). It would be interesting to see just how many US cities have HP agents in them. I know out west US only has agents in SAN/LAX/SFO/SEA/LAS/DEN/PHX and thats it ( and not many at that).
Of the PSA agents who came to TPA 12 years ago we are down to only 4 agents left from PSA. 1 is retiring in Aug, 1 wants to go back for sure, but doesnt know if she can afford it, 1 is staying for sure, and 1 says if something opens he might consider it, but he has kids who want to stay here. Not a lot of pushing there. Also I know that most of the 50 or so who transferred to DCA back in 90 are either back in the West or quit. Not too many left there either. Also, how many NEW cities would there be for HP agents to be able to transfer to in the East? Since there is very little airport overlap, I really dont see the agent integration to be a major problem. US does have junior agents in PHL/DCA/LGA/BOS where they have had trouble hiring people so that opens up some cities for HP. We are also hiring for CARs in TPA (12 positions) to replace those who took the EO so that could have been HP transfers as well since we had no US transfers and are hiring off the street.

Edited- Not sure how accurate this is, but on the HP website they list the following cities on the C/S and Fleet employment page.
BWI BOS BUR FLL LAS LAX MIA OAK SNA PHX RNO SMF GEG TUS
Of these US only has agents in 7 cities. Not sure if they have HP people in other cities but havent listed them or if this is the extent of their agent base and the other cities are contract.

 

[BoeingBoy]

AFAIK, all AFL-CIO unions are expected to use DOH integration regardless of circumstances--whether merger or purchase. ALPA is AFL-CIO.

[post="275834"][/post]​

jimntx,

As far as actually integrating the lists and leaving out all the preliminarys (compiling & swaping lists, disputes about the data in the lists, etc), here is what the ALPA merger policy says in it's entirety:

The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

So that is it for ALPA. DOH is only mentioned as it pertains to compiling the individual lists. Near as I can tell, that language predates 1991. IIRC, that language was exactly the same during the PI/PSA/US merger.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

They are junior to the U furloughed ones, and the furloughed f/a's at U will come back and be senior to them, only fair. Some of us had nearly 4 years at U.

[post="275838"][/post]​

A newhire 3 months ago with HP had a career expectation. The carrier was not in bankruptcy, much less for the second time in two years.

A 2000-01 hire with U is lucky to be working (if any even are working).

I'd say the HP folks have to go ahead of U involuntary furloughs.

 

[markkus757]

I still think that the combined entity would have a lot easier time at it if they chopped the top of the lists off and offered enough for them to retire in a dignified way. Like it was posted before, in the next three years, you have more US employees retiring in the pilot group and this would definitely benefit HP's group. They have widebody spots in their future plans now and if 2000 or so left, they could see them birds in the near future. That's a good benefit for a group that would have either an old 757 or a possibly new 321 to top out at.

 

[Light Years]

exactly how much money is America West paying for USAirways?
more specifically how much money is America West putting into the deal?

[post="275852"][/post]​

:huh: ?

 

[firstamendment]

It already did. Two or three weeks ago... This was also the single most contentious issue with the failed UA/US merger proposal.

Since this is a hotly debated issue, first a disclaimer... I'm a long time management employee, and probably more neutral on this than some of the other folks who are neck deep in this debate. The only reason I'm saying that is because there are a few people who think I have an axe to grind in the seniority debate. I don't. It's not that I don't care about the outcome, but admittedly, I'm not anywhere near as emotionally attached to the issue as most of you are.
Depends. If you believe the dozens of US employees over on the HP forum preaching "DOH," yes.

After a DOH integration, if there's another downturn, it's likely that most of the HP employees will be flushed before the majority of the remaining US employees. Once furloughed, they'll have to wait for the current US employees to be recalled.

That's why you've got a handful of former TW people telling how they got screwed in the AA integration, and a handful of AA people still trying to defending how the three unions' (and an arbitrator in the case of the TWU) handled the integration of AA and TW. When the downturn hits, it's no longer a matter of "look forward to working with you" but an episode of Survivor or The Apprentice, where everyone is looking out for themselves...

From a fairness/career expectation standpoint, the 5:1 ratio example seems to be more logical in that it protects the relative position on the seniority list between the two groups, and ensures that a proportionate group from each former carrier feels the pain if there's another downturn.

Whether or not that happens is another story.

[post="275810"][/post]​

Must Beat DEAD horse!!. I could give a damn what your opinion is. The F/A's will go DOH!! Get over it!!

 

[Light Years]

A newhire 3 months ago with HP had a career expectation.  The carrier was not in bankruptcy, much less for the second time in two years.

A 2000-01 hire with U is lucky to be working (if any even are working).

I'd say the HP folks have to go ahead of U involuntary furloughs.

[post="275884"][/post]​

Well, glad you don't have a say in it then.

It's not the 2000-01 hires that HP would be worried about, it's the 1958-1983 ones.

And if you want to talk about career expectations, those 2000-01 hire F/As were hired for an Airbus a week and transatlantic growth. That's why all of your Italian and Dutch language speakers are stuck on the E170 flights. By the way, the pilots in the MAA division have hired lawyers to make sure MAA division employees are represented as active US Airways employees if anything comes up about being "active only." The recall list has been exhausted, every F/A has had at least two opportunities to come back. There are F/As from the last class of summer 2001 flying again, and the MAA list is about half of the involuntary furloughees. The rest have either moved on and are enjoying the travel bennies, or will only return for the $1 more that mainline now pays.

An America West hire from any time would have expectations of a PHX base and narrowbody flying. Why should they be able to work the US Airways flight to Barcelona, or get a CLT base or whatever before the 1999 seniority US Airways F/A that was hired to do so? Or what if they were hired around HP's own bankrupcy bout? That's why "career expectations" are dumb, and thankfully not part of either airlines merger policy... which again, is AFA, which has date of hire in thier by-laws.

But everyone on this forum knows this, but you can't keep a #### stirrer down.

 

[firstamendment]

I still think that the combined entity would have a lot easier time at it if they chopped the top of the lists off and offered enough for them to retire in a dignified way. Like it was posted before, in the next three years, you have more US employees retiring in the pilot group and this would definitely benefit HP's group. They have widebody spots in their future plans now and if 2000 or so left, they could see them birds in the near future. That's a good benefit for a group that would have either an old 757 or a possibly new 321 to top out at.

[post="275891"][/post]​

Markus
This is ALREADY happening with the F/a group. It is TOO easy for our AA naysayers to disbute it when we at US know the reality. By the time we merge, DOH will be a non issue, but the AA jerks want to stir the pot OVER and OVER and OVER again. In three years, 1200 US pilots will be 60 and HAVE to retire!! This year alone, over 1000....baby that's 1000 f/a's with senority 1988 and HIGHER WILL quit or retire....REPEAT....1000. What part of STIRRING THE POT do the AWA employees NOT understand????!!! It's the outsiders looking to create problems. If anyone at AWA wants to believe the dribble fine. You are wasting precious energy!!! :down: :down: :down:

 

[BoeingBoy]

In three years, 1200 US pilots will be 60 and HAVE to retire!!

[post="275900"][/post]​

Well, not quite....

The actual number of pilots that will retire thru the end of 2008 (3-1/2 years) is 633:

464 line pilots
104 currently on disability
46 currently furloughed (some at MDA or J4J)
19 currently in supervisory positions

Jim

 

[Light Years]

974 F/As gone by December, and another VFLR to be offered early 2006. If the merge happens in 2 years, you could be talking about over 2000 less F/As than are on the property today, and no furloughees involuntary or otherwise.

 

[eolesen]

Must Beat DEAD horse!!. I could give a damn what your opinion is. The F/A's will go DOH!! Get over it!!

[post="275898"][/post]​

What is your screen name again?... You must be a diehard Democrat who believes that freedom of expression only applies if it fits/protects your lifestyle, religion, or viewpoint....

AFA might have DOH specified in their bylaws, but try taking off the hate-blinders for just a moment and realize that there at least four other workgroups impacted -- pilots, mechanics, ramp and agents. More if you include smaller groups like dispatchers, load agents, meteorologists, flight sim techs, flight instructors and other groups which may or may not be covered by CBA's.

They've all still got a major issue to contend with, and there's no guarantee that any of them will have DOH.

If you don't like the fact that there will be a negotiated integration for at least one workgroup, then just go stick your head back in the sand and keep chanting DOH. Perhaps it will come true that way...

 

[USA320Pilot]

Another issue with a pilot fence is that US Airways has 50 aircraft that pay widebody rates and America West zero.

US Airways’ fleet count has 10 A330s, 9 B767s, and 31 B757s (as you know the B757 has the same pay rate as the B767). Thus, if a fence is agreed upon with PHX/LAS flying restricted to pre-merger America West pilots then an argument can be made that the higher paying widebody flying out of US Airways pilots flying should be “fencedâ€￾ too.

America West B757, A320, and B737 pilots all receive narrowbody pay, albeit 10% higher than US Airways pilot narrowbody pay.

I believe the America West pilots will not want to be fenced off widebody’s and then split the A350s in 2011 through 2013, 6 to 8 years away. Thus, this will be another point for the Merger Committee’s to discuss.

Another issue is merger consumation fleet plans. If the merger agreement closes on the target date of September 30 US Airways will have about 3,000 pilots and about 250 mainline aircraft (with further reductions forthcoming) and America West 1,900 pilots and 138 mainline aircraft. That’s about a 3:2 margin in favor of US Airways pilots.

Also noteworthy, US Airways has about 200 age 60 mandatory retirements per year for the next 3 years then the number increases with about 2,500 pilots gone in about 10 years. The average pilot age is close to 54 years old and I beilieve about 20 pilots per month go onto long-term disability. Some pilots return from their medical leave, but if my memory serves me correctly more than half of those who go onto LTD do not reutrn.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[BoeingBoy]

Also noteworthy, US Airways has about 200 age 60 mandatory retirements per year for the next 3 years then the number increases with about 2,500 pilots gone in about 10 years. The average pilot age is close to 54 years old and I beilieve about 20 pilots per month go onto long-term disability. Some pilots return from their medical leave, but if my memory serves me correctly more than half of those who go onto LTD do not reutrn.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

[post="275943"][/post]​

Since I deal with these numbers routinely, a couple of small corrections....

In the next 10 years (from today), there are 2368 age-60 retirements. Of these:

- 199 are currently furloughed (including those at MDA/J4J positions). I would hope that sometime in the next 10 years there will be recalls, but other than the MDA/J4J folks (who I presume would return) there's no way of knowing how many of these 199 will actually return to end up retiring from US/HP vs resign instead of returning.

- 172 are currently on disability. As you intimate, there's no way to know which of these will return before they reach 60 to retire from active service or who will go on disability and remain there till retirement.

Lacking foresight, that's less than 2000 pilots we know will retire from active service in the next 10 years. Depending on who returns from furlough in the event of recalls and who goes on/returns from disability, that number could increase or decrease. Of course, none of this counts attrition other than age-60. Whether the potential of merger will slow the other attrition or not is a definite factor in how many pilots actually leave in any time frame.

Lastly, the number on disability tends to track the average age of the pilot group. During the early 90's, we had well under 200 on disability at any given time. By the late 90's, that was up to 250 - 275. We are currently up to almost 370. For the last 18 months, the average has been a net loss of between 6 & 7 pilots to disability (leaving minus returning).per month, and for the last 6 months the average has been 9 per month.

Jim