Seniority/merger

[Winglet]

767jetz,

Using your rule of acceptable screwing.

J.O. of Mesa comes tomorrow and buys UAL. Then you will be 100% accepting and also an advocate, of being STAPLED to the bottom of their list?

[post="271828"][/post]​

Only acceptable if the industry-leading and couragous Mesa labor contracts go with the deal.

 

[767jetz]

Fact is that there is a problem. So much so that management and ALPA needed to step in and correct the problem.

Try to deny that!

[post="271700"][/post]​

OK. I will deny that, you pompus a$$.

One occurance is too much. And UA management and ALPA will step in to council anyone who denies the jumpseat for other than legitimate reasons.

 

[767jetz]

767jetz,

Using your rule of acceptable screwing.

J.O. of Mesa comes tomorrow and buys UAL. Then you will be 100% accepting and also an advocate, of being STAPLED to the bottom of their list?

[post="271828"][/post]​

I'm not going to continue sparring with someone like you. You are obviously a master of twisting words. And I can't have a conversation with a person whose ears and mind are closed.

For the last time... Screwing is never acceptable. However, ALPA's merger policy clearly states that career expectations and avoiding windfalls is paramount. NOT DOH.

Therefore, it is a subjective process that depends on the arbitrator's judgement on what's fair.

So IF a large and financially profitable airline came along, and IF UA was on lifesupport with one foot in the grave and could only survive if bought by said airline, and IF that airline had more international flying and bigger airplanes than UA, then I would expect that a pilot at that company has more career expectations than me, and I would NOT expect DOH. Period.

I came from TWA, and have many friends who were furloughed from AA. Stapling is not the way to go, however it is pretty clear in these situations what a person's career expectation is at their respective airline.

At AA, the pilots had higher C.E. than TWA.
In 2000, UA had higher C.E. than US.
Today, AWA pilots have higher C.E. than US.

Sorry, but that's just the way it works.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I'm not going to continue sparring with someone like you. You are obviously a master of twisting words. And I can't have a conversation with a person whose ears and mind are closed.

For the last time... Screwing is never acceptable. However, ALPA's merger policy clearly states that career expectations and avoiding windfalls is paramount. NOT DOH.

Therefore, it is a subjective process that depends on the arbitrator's judgement on what's fair.

So IF a large and financially profitable airline came along, and IF UA was on lifesupport with one foot in the grave and could only survive if bought by said airline, and IF that airline had more international flying and bigger airplanes than UA, then I would expect that a pilot at that company has more career expectations than me, and I would NOT expect DOH. Period.

I came from TWA, and have many friends who were furloughed from AA. Stapling is not the way to go, however it is pretty clear in these situations what a person's career expectation is at their respective airline.

At AA, the pilots had higher C.E. than TWA.
In 2000, UA had higher C.E. than US.
Today, AWA pilots have higher C.E. than US.

Sorry, but that's just the way it works.

[post="271839"][/post]​

You Sir are interesting.

You come to this boards and stir the pot by saying that U should be stapled to AWA.

Then you justify everything with your twisted logic with ANDS, IF'S and BUT. Then throw in the C.E.. Curious how's your C.E. coming these days.

Please go back to your train wreck (UAL) as you call it and save us from your dribble.

 

[aafsc]

He has ONE buddy at NWA...period, and we are not happy about that one. On another note:regarding TWA "Remember, assets are purchased, operations and employees are merged" This is a statement of delusions of grandur. TWA was finished and was simply liquidated. By the good fortuntions of fate you were given a JOB and decent PAY. TWA's ONLY other option was the unemployment line with NOTHING and NO JOB. That was the sad reality that ungratful TWA people harp about over and over again. Just what did you take to the employees of AA? Routes from countries with open skies agreements? Assets that hadn't turned a profit since 1986? You expect to go to an airline that employees built with their own sacrafices and reap the rewards? Hardly. You were in the SAME situation as Braniff, OUT of cash and OUT of air. RIP. Sorry to be so harsh, but it is reality. Your expectations... were of hitting the lottery jackpot. Had the situation been reversed, there is no way this side of hell TWA fAs would have allowed a bankrupt (and pending liquidation) airline to come in and take DOH.

[post="271777"][/post]​

Excellent post and so true!

 

[nbmcg01]

I think NWA should watch out.  When Jerry gets the boot, I suspect NWA will want him to work his evil magic over there.  He already has several buddies (including Neal "I-Don't-Know-What-My-Salary-Is" Cohen) at NWA HQ.  He will needed to drag those employees into the gutter like he did at USAirways.

[post="271722"][/post]​

To North by Northwest- How wrong you are. Actually, TWA and HP were in similar financial shape and look at HP now. People had been counting TWA long gone for decades and we always managed to stay around. There was another deal on the table but Compton and Carty managed to get their way. I won't even begin to argue with you about assets..we had the youngest fleet of planes in the US. Also, never did I mention DOH, I used an example of slotting. I stated that we gave OZ DOH and none of us ever regretted the decision. It really doesn't matter to me because I retired 4-1 and as have many others, moved on to another career. I simply wanted to wish both HP and US the best of luck with their new adventure. The main thing is to insure that there are 'No furlough" provisions in place. That will relieve much of the uncertainty re: their jobs. It doesn't have to be presented in a negative light...TWA-OZ are a grest example of how it can work.And finally, I beg to differ, we absolutely would have given DOH, no matter what the situation. Regards..

 

[aafsc]

To North by Northwest- How wrong you are. Actually, TWA and HP were in similar financial shape and look at HP now. People had been counting TWA long gone for decades and we always managed to stay around. There was another deal on the table but Compton and Carty managed to get their way. I won't even begin to argue with you about assets..we had the youngest fleet of planes in the US. Also, never did I mention DOH, I used an example of slotting. I stated that we gave OZ DOH and none of us ever regretted the decision. It really doesn't matter to me because I retired 4-1 and as have many others, moved on to another career. I simply wanted to wish both HP and US the best of luck with their new adventure. The main thing is to insure that there are 'No furlough" provisions in place. That will relieve much of the uncertainty re: their jobs. It doesn't have to be presented in a negative light...TWA-OZ are a grest example of how it can work.And finally, I beg to differ, we absolutely would have given DOH, no matter what the situation. Regards..

[post="271869"][/post]​

You seem to forget that HP did not have that blood sucking, cash draining Ichan ticket deal like TWA did. It is highly doubtful TWA would have survived the calamities of the last few years with Karabu still in place. It is also highly doubtful that TWA would have gotten an ATSB loan like HP did because of karabu. Yes, you had one of the youngest fleets in the industry but you were paying 2 to 3 times the market rate for the leases. As far as the potential HP/TW deal, look at how apprehensive HP people are now over this merger. It would have been the same with TW in that they would have feared your very high TW seniority. Air Tran looked over TW and ran like hell the other way. No one was going to buy TWA "as is" and infect themselves with the "karabu disease".

 

[savyinvestor]

Well the U pilot's career expectations are "unemployment line within 1 year without a merger" and AWA's expectation is to still be in bx in one year. Therefore it looks like a staple of all U employees at the bottom of the AWA list is the only fair way.

[post="271826"][/post]​

Not so fast. Granted their career expectations weren't too good, but a staple job is going too far the other way. I'm sure some type of equitable blending will be in order IMHO. Savy

 

[nbmcg01]

You seem to forget that HP did not have that blood sucking, cash draining Ichan ticket deal like TWA did. It is highly doubtful TWA would have survived the calamities of the last few years with Karabu still in place. It is also highly doubtful that TWA would have gotten an ATSB loan like HP did because of karabu. Yes, you had one of the youngest fleets in the industry but you were paying 2 to 3 times the market rate for the leases. As far as the potential HP/TW deal, look at how apprehensive HP people are now over this merger. It would have been the same with TW in that they would have feared your very high TW seniority. Air Tran looked over TW and ran like hell the other way. No one was going to buy TWA "as is" and infect themselves with the "karabu disease".

[post="271870"][/post]​

LOL..we'll have to agree to disagree. It is a moot issue now. Regards. ps..why do you think AA insisted on a prepack bk as part of the "deal"...to get rid of the Karabu deal and to abrogate our CBAs and most importantly, our LPPs..Not a bad price for TWA...a coke and a hotdog..or was it kool-aid? I personally would have liked to have taken my chances or at least kept the operations separate. (but then I wasn't asked..lol) With many years of financial and labor unrest, many of us were more than prepared to enter other careers. Hopefully the rest have taken advantage of retraining opportunities.

 

[MachPi]

The main thing is to insure that there are 'No furlough" provisions in place. That will relieve much of the uncertainty re: their jobs.

[post="271869"][/post]​

As I head into my 15th month of furlough, I can tell you that my "No furlough"
clause in my AA contract wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[North by Northwest]

It is never easy, nor fun to watch a great airline like TWA perish. Alas, it happened to many greats of the industry. The poison that Icahn inflicted on TWA was irreversable. How the laws of the country allow legal crimes when it comes to white collar theft is revolting. Safe flying.

 

[nbmcg01]

As I head into my 15th month of furlough, I can tell you that my "No furlough"
clause in my AA contract wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

[post="271914"][/post]​

Then I would have to say it is your Union's fault! But the again, I had the "clout" of the IAM "giving" away my "ironclad"(lol) Labor Protective Provisions. And to add to the equasion, you have Company negotiators willing to sign just about anything to get a deal done because they know that the Court will abrogate the agreements at the hint of the bk threat. I find it amusing that the APFA now stands arm in arm with the AFA to protest the Courts and Mangt. using abrogation of CBAs and pensions (through BK)to gain concessions that tailspin the industry back decades. Hypocrisy at its finest. These are the very threats used against TWA and because allowed, are now considered "industry standard". I now work in social services and considering what our "baby Gov." has done to Medicaid in Missouri, I think I've gone from the frying pan into the fire..lol Dang, it is hard being a little left of liberal in 2005! I would LOVE to be working on the HP-US transition. That is my area of expertise and love. I still wish them the very best and believe if everyone stays calm, and cool headed, a fair arrangement can be accomplished.

 

[North by Northwest]

There is NOTHING fair in this country when MONEY and POLITICS are involved.

 

[767jetz]

You Sir are interesting.

You come to this boards and stir the pot by saying that U should be stapled to AWA.

Then you justify everything with your twisted logic with ANDS, IF'S and BUT. Then throw in the C.E.. Curious how's your C.E. coming these days.

Please go back to your train wreck (UAL) as you call it and save us from your dribble.

[post="271853"][/post]​

Here we go again, sparky.

Just like on another thread.

I NEVER said staple. Show me where I used that word.

You sir are a liar.

 

[SpinDoc]

Here we go again, sparky.

Just like on another thread.

I NEVER said staple. Show me where I used that word.

You sir are a liar.

[post="272043"][/post]​

767Jetz:

What does it really matter anyway? Anyone who
is displaced in the merger will receive some
kind of severance payout, and will be entitled to
unemployment. You union types really need
to settle down and accept the merger for what
it is, and not worry so much about "what's in
it for me?"