Reality

[High Iron]

Didnt understand your question? Bottom Line! Iam alpa afa etc will talk . They have no choice but to work with mgt regardless of what some feel they should or should not do .They as well as management have a responsiblity in the end to make sure theyre is a company to work for with productivity rules that match other similar jobs . I dont think that anyone is calling for flat pay cuts. Productivity improvements are being called for. These unions know the big picture. Do they like it? YOU better believe they hate it. But the market is driving these changes plain and simple Buisness 101 ! You have to adapt . If you dont youll go away .

Nice comback ( feh ) and all, but you're not getting off the hook that easily;

Per earlier post, "What scares me is that some of the posters on here are actually working on our aircrafts"

Where in this all do you equate the ability to perform one's function ( including the concern for the airworthyness of said group's handiwork ) based on their stance on contractual issues? The 2nd concessionary agreement BTW, the 2nd one in a court battle concerning the attempted end-run 'round latter.

--"Didnt understand your question? Bottom Line! Iam alpa afa etc will talk."

Talk? Under a gag order not to divulge?


--"They have no choice but to work with mgt regardless of what some feel they should or should not do"

Such a pivotal plan that remains heretofore under wraps...and cannot see the ( unfiltered ) light of day. All the kings horses and all the kings media and bulk-rate mailings...couldn't get the plan out to the benighted proletariat. ( sigh ) Bet it's a nightmare beyond everyone's wildest apprehensions.

--"They as well as management have a responsiblity in the end to make sure theyre is a company to work for with productivity rules that match other similar jobs . I dont think that anyone is calling for flat pay cuts. Productivity improvements are being called for. These unions know the big picture. Do they like it? YOU better believe they hate it."

In other words...( Loud resounding baritone ) "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!"


--"But the market is driving these changes plain and simple Buisness 101 ! You have to adapt . If you dont youll go away."

Business 101, business 101....your oft voiced venerable argumental plattitude ( crutch ) Like a kid that heard a new big word and tries to work it into every conversation without regard to its validity, somehow hoping the listeners will take it at face value and leave it at that. Yeah, let's BS our way through a brokerage house; wandering through the offices and corridors blurting "Buy low, Sell high!" to every employee we run into.

Let's see: The airline COULD theoretically slash employee compensation low enough to make the numbers work, compensating for a flawed ( nonexistant? ) business plan. ( bail furiously to arrest sinking boat ) Or, Maybe fix the leak instead. Well, bailing ( concessions, shrinkage ) was easy enough to accomplish in the past...why should any other path be followed? "Business 101" indeed!

 

[delldude]

Here is something to remember:

This is Roy Freundlich with US Airways an MEC update for Friday, July 26, with two new items: Item 1. Today the Charlotte Observer published an anti-union editorial from one of our pilots, titled "Unions can Sink US Airways," that aggressively promotes management’s objectives on achieving concessions from other labor groups. The editorial goes so far as to suggest that the CWA union leadership, who represent customer service employees, is misleading their members on their negotiating activity, and implies that management’s side of a dispute is more accurate.

This editorial does not in any way represent ALPA’s position, understanding, or sentiment, on other unions and their sincere efforts to represent their members. ALPA has received no reports, nor would it assign any value to reports, that suggest that any union is misleading their membership. The pilot author of the editorial holds no union position in ALPA. The anti-union public statements from one of our pilot-ALPA members is regrettable.

We urge all pilots to contact their reps or the Comm Center for accurate updates on restructuring negotiations and the activity of other unions. We also request that all pilots refrain from promoting any management anti-union propaganda or chastise other employees in the media. There is little to be gained from such activity other than embarrassment for yourself, your fellow pilots, US Airways, and ALPA.

now who would this article be refering to??

 

[youngblood]

In regards to the editorial bashing CWA and the contractual agreement made concerning MDA when concessions were made the second round, it was completely unacceptable. We are a union and group of employees that goes unnoticed most of the time. We agreed to the concession under certain terms and like all other unions have faced blatant "renegotiations" from management. Management is bound to the contract we agreed upon and there is no side stepping the matter. Personally, I want the airline to succeed and will do everything I can to make that happen; however, I am under no obligation to give and step aside when management gets down right greedy and wants to take even more without adhereing to previous promises that are in black and white.

I have always given the benefit of the doubt until someone steps on my toes. My toes are broken from being stepped on and frankly, it's time for management to show me the plan from beginning to end. I can't afford to give anymore. To put it into perspective, I work over time when I can or pick up hours to make up for lost wages, vacation pay, holiday pay, and higher premiums. What else can I GIVE?

As for union bashing or pointing fingers - I cool hot tempers, apologize for an inconvenience, eat crap from customers, and create the revenue that keeps US going. The point is this - we need each other - without eachother what would there be - a lot of unemployed people.

 

[usfliboi]

High Iron! The only people in this industry that feelsa Daves plan is flawed based on his own misgivings are the few neg posters on this board. Will Daves past plan work ? No! But its not Daves fault. The industry is still changing by the day and we have to adapt. Plain simple. Buisness 101 has nothing to do with trying to change yours or anyones minds. Its a fact ! Something you dont see on here much of anymore.

 

[A320 Driver]

There was a report on Plane Business Banter that showed our various costs vs. income. Unless I read it wrong, it stated that as a percentage of income, our maintenance costs are already below that of Southwest. I frankly do not understand the company's position with regard to the farmout. Our problem may not be as top heavy as we think. We have many in middle management that love to see what they can wring out of their fellow employees so they can impress the brass. I can't be sure this is the case with the farm out, but I could certainly sight many other examples of this where the brass was persuaded to persue a course of action that was nothing more than self serving for some middle manager trying to climb the corporate ladder.
That being said, I hope our maintenance staff prevails in the court action and we can put this issue to bed. If our senior management would spend more time pondering the opinions of the folks around here that really do the work, I think the whole company would be better off. We need stronger management in the operations department. The VPs don't seem to be able to work together to solve these conflicts between the various facets of our operations (specifically PHL).

Just some thoughts...

A320 Driver B)

 

[EyeInTheSky]

A320 Driver there is no way this company is going to make it given the current state of mismanagement. Its become such an unhealthy place to work that after twenty plus years here I am putting my app in at other carriers. I had faith but it's gone now. Maybe this could go on another few years, few months, regardless I don't like what it's becoming. More importantly I don't like how this is making me feel, family and fellow coworkers. God help us all.

 

[delldude]

Will Daves past plan work ? No! But its not Daves fault.
recent media blitz over selling assets to raise much needed cash and prod labor into concessions-result?
bond rating drops to b-
gecas advises further drop in bond rating,MDA financing to be withdrawn
But its not Daves fault
media blitz makes wallstreet believe company readying for liquidation
But its not Daves fault
after disasterous media campain that has obviously backfired greater than expected,bronner issues statements claiming asset sales not really needed...too late damage done
But its not Daves fault
media campain to prod labor into talks actually further jeopardizes situation and accelerates death spiral by possibly killing the MDA option and salvoing the credit rating.
But its not Daves fault
Plain simple. Buisness 101
not where i went to school

 

[700UW]

Will we see this again?

From the July 26, 2002 Charlotte Observer:

UNIONS CAN SINK US AIRWAYS
WITHOUT AGREEMENTS FROM ALL ITS UNIONS, AIRLINE'S FUTURE IS BLEAK
In recent days US Airways has made much progress toward ensuring that it
will have a future. It has reached tentative contract restructuring
agreements with its pilots, flight attendants and the Transport Workers
Union, which represents the dispatchers, simulator engineers and flight crew
training instructors, and with subsidiary PSA Airlines' pilots and flight
attendants.

The International Association of Machinists (IAM) unit representing
mechanics is close to a deal, and the IAM Fleet Service negotiators are
making good progress.

But that's not enough.

The Communication Workers of America (CWA), which represents customer
service and reservation agents, remains far from agreement with the company.
US Airways is on the brink of court-ordered bankruptcy because its situation
is "unsustainable." Failure to improve the situation will have devastating
effects on employees, customers and companies that depend on US Airways.

The airline has received a "conditional" federal loan guarantee approval,
but can't use those funds unless it gets restructuring agreements with all
labor groups, in accordance with the business plan submitted to the Air
Transportation Stabilization Board (ATSB).

Needed for loan guarantees

Major obstacles remain in the way of a voluntary restructuring.

US Airways may not be able to reach agreements with lenders without
tentative agreements with the remaining unions. Unless it has those
agreements the company wouldn't get final ATSB loan guarantee approval,
government sources believe.

How bad is the situation? The carrier continues to burn cash during what is
historically the best-performing time of year. Ten months after Sept. 11, US
Airways has not resolved its cost problems, the economy remains sluggish,
revenue is off 20 percent and low-cost competitors are aggressively
attacking its market share. The industry has not recovered as expected.
Domestic fares are at 15-year lows. Shifts in buying patterns and travel
options indicate airlines may never get the revenue per available seat mile
they previously enjoyed.

Disturbing reports

US Airways needs restructuring agreements for either a voluntary
restructuring or successful bankruptcy reorganization. If the company gets
union concessions and qualifies for government financing, then if it's
forced into bankruptcy, it probably could get in and out of bankruptcy
quickly.

What's disturbing are reports that the CWA leadership is misleading its
members. Last Friday, company negotiators asked the union to meet, to try
and resolve their differences. The union said its negotiators couldn't meet,
but its advisers would be available. However, I'm told that when management
tried to schedule a meeting, they were told the advisers had other
commitments. Meanwhile, the CWA issued a report telling its members the
company met with the advisers last weekend - which management disputes.

Brinkmanship by any union could push the airline into bankruptcy. It's
disappointing to see a relatively small group of employees risk the
destruction of a viable company, with a devastating effect on 40,000
employees and their families.

No one can be sure what will happen in bankruptcy, but it's certain that if
the company reorganizes and successfully comes out of bankruptcy, the labor
groups that don't have tentative agreements with the company prior to
bankruptcy will lose.

As in other union negotiations, the parties that reach savings targeted in
the business plan will get a bankruptcy protection letter, which protects
against even deeper salary and benefit cuts if the company enters
bankruptcy.

Some may face pay cuts

If the company files for bankruptcy, workers in labor groups without that
bankruptcy protection letter may face deep cuts in pay and benefits, loss of
unused sick and vacation time, slashed retirement benefits and a crash in
the value of common stock in 401(k) accounts. In addition, they'll work for
a smaller airline that will hand out layoff notices at once with no
severance pay, and will pay members of unprotected unions significantly
less.

Each day the company moves nearer bankruptcy. New chief executive officer
David Siegel has brought a breath of fresh air to management. US Airways'
best chance to survive is for unions and creditors to bet on him and his
team. Employees wanting to keep their jobs must impress upon union
rank-and-file employees the importance of ordering union leaders back to the
bargaining table at once, to reach an agreement that is 85 percent of the
targeted concessions.

The choice is simple: Either all stakeholders move past their anger,
frustration and denial to obtain and ratify restructuring agreements, or the
carrier will almost certainly enter bankruptcy.

History has shown only two major airlines have successfully restructured in
bankruptcy - not good odds for this company to continue operation.

Chip Munn is a US Airways captain

 

[usfliboi]

Please tell me Dell if you were ceo and your unions leaders said dont come this way "the concessions stand is closed" crap? Um im gonna use every tool to get them to the table...... By the way its working.....The B rating is a credit watch / cash repayment problem has nothing nothing nothing to do with what dave is saying. He is stating the obvious. What does hurt stock ,is when Union leaders call for the removal of their ceo, outloud to investors etc, that they will not give anymore...... Its plain its simple its Buisness 101! Ill be happy to deal with the facts, unfort. most post on here are not factual. Only opinions. In fact we know very little other than what dave has said publicly and what the media says and they put bits and pieces together 2 and 2 gets 5. You guys arent doing anyone any favors by bashing and complaining. Its coming and it has to happen if we wanna survive. Why is every investor and every airline exec and every anaylist saying the same things yet a few employees on here dont get it????? All we can do is do our job as best we can enjoy the family Lifes too short for a high blood pressure.

 

[High Iron]

High Iron! The only people in this industry that feelsa Daves plan is flawed based on his own misgivings are the few neg posters on this board. Will Daves past plan work ? No! But its not Daves fault. The industry is still changing by the day and we have to adapt. Plain simple. Buisness 101 has nothing to do with trying to change yours or anyones minds. Its a fact ! Something you dont see on here much of anymore.

Twice now, you're not even engaging in a debate...you're talking right past me. I bring up specific points and you give the same rubber stamp response.

---"High Iron! The only people in this industry that feelsa Daves plan is flawed based on his own misgivings are the few neg posters on this board."

Nice try, but the status quo crowd is in the distinct minority ( whether on this and other BB's and the business media ), and you know it. "His own misgivings" matters not. Concessions & Shrinkage did not work, and only exaccerbated the problem. Based on this, one can safely conclude that more of same will result in...well...more of same.

BTW, for the 3rd time, if this new plan is so pivotal- Why has it yet to see the light of day? We still have a free press and the mail system seems to be chugging along....why the cloak of secrecy?

Of course, the whole "productivity" angle, when used broadly and vaguely enough sounds benign...but the devil is in the details...details that are lacking...to say the least.

Why the secrecy? Who knows, maybe:

1) It's a hack-fest that'll dwarf the previous two combined in its draconianism

2) It does not really exist per se', but is being used to show good faith on the company's part while obbstuctionism on labor's part...perhaps to enable a climate where cashing out and parting out seems the only answer.

---"Will Daves past plan work ? No!" "But its not Daves fault"

So the staus quo ( cut cut...shrink shrink ) ISN'T the way to go now. We've made some progress then. Yeah, it kinda' is Dave's fault. Doesn't really matter now if it is or isn't his fault, except for the fact that more of the same, resulting in a faster tailspin becomes his fault more and more. Throwing away good money after bad and all.........

---"The industry is still changing by the day and we have to adapt. Plain simple."

No, it's not that simple. Just what is to changed makes all the difference, and the changes thus far are analagous to just bailing harder to slow down the rate of sinking. Simply stating "we have to change" without specificity is a weak weak argument.


---"Buisness 101 has nothing to do with trying to change yours or anyones minds."

You're inability to grasp my response to your "Business 101" crutch just seems to cement in my mind what I've suspected; One who throws the term around without being specific and regards to it's relevance. If you really were that knowledgeable on economics you would've explained how this relates. As it is now, you express yourself rather poorly IMO. I can only judge from what I have read so far however.

In pure terms: Revenues must increase...or costs must drop...or a combination of the 2. "Business 101" at it's naked core. We've seen the costs issues addressed, and it's not all that successful, the "theory of diminishing returns" being responsible. Further shrinkage and concessions, subsidizing a flawed business plan may be technically "Business 101"...but it's bad business. Changing the operating method, the ways of which have been addressed very well on this BB, would be better business IMO. "Business 101" indeed!


---"Its a fact ! Something you dont see on here much of anymore."

Sounds like desperation to me. No specifics, just an "Oh yeah?" in effect.

I'll be glad to debate you intellegently, but I'm tired of giving detailed responses to rubber-stamp generalites.

 

[OldpropGuy]

High Iron! The only people in this industry that feelsa Daves plan is flawed based on his own misgivings are the few neg posters on this board. Will Daves past plan work ? No! But its not Daves fault. The industry is still changing by the day and we have to adapt. Plain simple. Buisness 101 has nothing to do with trying to change yours or anyones minds. Its a fact ! Something you dont see on here much of anymore.

If it's not Dave's fault, then who is at fault. He came up with the plan. It's not mine, I'm just the driver. He is being paid to have the vision and forethought to run the airline. Heck anyone, even I, can can come up with a half-arse plan that doesn't work! A true leader is proactive and creative, not just someone who reacts to what has already happened, with no vision of the future. The buck has to stop somewhere. We need leadership not excuses! The rest of the industry will not take a time out while US Airways attempts to catch up.

It doesn't help to alienate and lie to your employees either! They are the army you need to win the war! Common sense says it was better to have them on your side.

Excuse us, if I and others have had enough. We gave already, with promises of a future. This is not the career I fought long and hard for. I will not lower the bar any furthur! If the current management doesn't have the ability to do his job and there is not time to replace him, then we are all headed to...................

HEY! Why is it getting extremely hot and what am I doing in this hand basket?


Remember, this is only what you do for a living, not your life! We will all continue to exist, even after this is over! Don't be afraid, there is a real world out there! It was fun while it lasted!

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Nobody likes the current situation that faces all of the network carriers. In regard to the IAM, it's not only about the A320 heavy maintenance issue, but the upcoming discussions on work rule changes.

The only reason the company wants to outsource maintenance is because it's cheaper to conduct. My point is that it may be in the best interest of the mechanics to negotiate a deal to keep the overhaul in-house or there could be a corporate response where the IAM will have no recourse to a negative issue.

It's up to the IAM and we will know more after the judge issues his appellate ruling.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

Nobody likes the current situation facing the network carriers, but USAirways is the only network carrier that seems to be not doing anything in response to the LCCs. AA, UA, DL have all responded in various ways (CO and NW to my knowledge aren't that severely affected by LCCs).

I'm no CEO but: wouldn't it be better for the company to just suck it up, fire the person(s) responsible for not taking care of this/these matters while operating in chpt. 11 and get on with running an airline?

The reason the company wants to outsource maintenace is because they messed up in their business plan, plain and simple.

Mechanics really have no reason to negotiate. I just don't see what the company could offer to them.

I actually can't believe I wrote this, defending labor, I'm more pro-management, but to a casual observer, the current US Airways management team seems out of their league.

Before somebody does say that the business plan is 400+ RJ's my reply is this:
1) that's not an original plan, that's copying your competitor hoping to be at least as good as they are not aiming to be better (mediocrity)
2) if the RJ plan is so crucial then why is mid-atlantic only a paper dream?

 

[767jetz]

Will we see this again?

From the July 26, 2002 Charlotte Observer:

UNIONS CAN SINK US AIRWAYS
WITHOUT AGREEMENTS FROM ALL ITS UNIONS, AIRLINE'S FUTURE IS BLEAK
...


Chip Munn is a US Airways captain

Hey, it's not very nice criticizing Chip's past, considering he left this site and nobody has seen or heard from him since.







(not)

 

[737nCH11]

If he was hired in 85-86 I seriously doubt he's a captain anymore.

 

[usfliboi]

Dell I wasnt aware that we were debating..... First across the board cuts were not dealt with. If you will recall after negotiatons, at least with afa, Dave mad it clear we would revisit productivity changes. Cost in tell far more than just wage cuts. Frankly i have said all along that Daves biggest mistake was not using BK in order to reduce cost further. Productivity enhancements shouldve been dealt with in a greater manner. These are the core problems and untill they change " cost" will not have been addressed fully . It comes as no surprise (does it)???????? that productivity rules have to change? I do not have all the answers , I can only speculate as can you since none of us have all the facts. I can say this. Whenever a ceo at THIS airline has asked for cuts the first thing i see and hear is " off with his head" The changes we are facing and have faced needed to happen years and years ago but they didnt. We are paying a price fo "not willing" from years ago. Hopefully its not too late "to will" this company back. Dave was dealt this hand . Sure he has mistepped in places, but in general he is faced with a company that has year over year barely changed across the board.