Reality

[PITbull]

Use Your Head,

CO had to go into BK a few times. It was so outrageous, that the BK laws subsequently had to change, and Lorenzo could never own another airline. In fact, he has gone into oblivion......Dave is heading down that path as well.

 

[ktflyhome]

Thank You USAirboyA330. My sentiments exactly. I was just about ready to respong to Mr. UseYourHead. HAHA!!!Airbus 330----International Dinosaurs. I would say their lives haven't changed much at all. They may miss some of their cronies who got sent back to domestic. And as far as the comment made by usflyboi about flexibility. WHOOOOA.....I have zero flexibility in my life now. Zip, nada, none! And much less pay. I don't have anything else to lose. So, I figure the only ones who are gonna suck up to the company and take more concessions are the ones who will have not much to lose. I just flew with and ex-Transatlantic mama, talk about no clue and indifference <_<

 

[crazyincanton]

Hi every one. Just my 2 cents: Does anyone really think that Dave is telling the truth? He has lied constantly since he came on the property and has stolen what he didn't get in ch. 11. Do you sincerely believe that this will be it? That productivity givebacks are going to put us over the top? Come on. Dave does not have a plan. It would have been communicated by now. His m.o. has been established through the two previous concessions: leak info on how bad u and the industry is doing, tell employees they need to give more, threaten ch.11, liquidation, selling of assets, etc. How often are we going to fall for this? The point is not if we can obtain comparable employment outside of u. The point is where do we draw the line on our pay and working conditions? How bad do things have to get before we say enough is enough? When is labor going to unite and tell dave & dave to run this thing and compete? What they are doing to the employees and morale of u is destroying us from the inside out. I am fairly senior and am apalled and disgusted by the cuts the reserves have had to take due to the time-balancing situation. That is another $1000-1500/month cut. Who can afford that on top of what they have already given? This is criminal. This should be the line that is drawn by afa. Dave wanted a contract that ran to 2009. We gave it to him. Now let him live with it.

crazyincanton

 

[700UW]

very well said CAK.

 

[usfliboi]

USfliboi,

Obviously you think you know who I am, so furnish me your base and payroll.

Secondly, it is YOU that states that 99% of SW contract allows more productivity than ours. SO YOU CITE THE SYSTEMS OF PRODUCTIVITY. You offer the "apples to apples" equation that you mentioned in YOUR previous post.

PitbullI have no clue who you are. The bottom line is luvs contract has a ton more productivity built in than ours. As far as " blockholder" try 16 year reserve held a block for 1 year type senority. I have as much invested mentally physically invested in this hole as you do if not more than. The bttm line here is that reality is reality. I do not like it and have been the first to complain about mis management. I believe Dave is doing what has to be done. If he werent i assure you we would all be happy and there would be no complaints. The problem with US is years and years of mistakes and it wasnt fixed "to the core" in bk . If i were to blame Dave for anything it is not doing what shouldve been done in bk and thats to cut to the core where it shouldve been cut. That for you and me would have been devastating and i believe Dave did try and go to easy on our groups in order to coddle if you will union groups. He gave us options all be it with the threat if we didnt the outcome would be grave. I see this as I see it right or wrong and im entitled to that opinion as you are yours. To say today that everything is ok and time will work out problems is not an option . To blame and throw fits to management will not work there is no time left. Do i think Dave and co should take drastic additional pay cuts? YES and believe they will. I believ in a union to an extent. On a day to day operational basis a is fine. When a company is in or near bk they are worthless in the respect that theres nothing they can do but to give . Again Im sick of this happening and has happen atually since 1989 as far as good news bad news . Its time its fixed the right way . As painful as it will be and as much as our group and others have sacrificed im afraid it is just the beginning. Theres little eto fight for other than for everyone to be on the same page with the same goal ie to save this company. If you would like to pvt msg me ill be happy to supply info.

 

[UseYourHead]

Use Your Head,

CO had to go into BK a few times. It was so outrageous, that the BK laws subsequently had to change, and Lorenzo could never own another airline. In fact, he has gone into oblivion......Dave is heading down that path as well.

700UW and PIT,

My point was that employee groups that grant concessions; in fact, employee groups that want to participate in saving an airline can and do make a difference, to say otherwise is false. The only airlines that were able to make it through times like these gave massive concessions, the road we appear to be about half way down about now.

Will employee concessions be the only thing to save the airline? Of course not; however, at this point we’re toast without them…it is simply a no-brainer that concessions are a needed ingredient, and will be a part of the equation.

I too have been in the industry many years, 27 and counting. I know what CAL and TWA went through, as well as the others. I worked at People Express in 1984/85. I know all about Lorenzo, and all about what happened to TWA at AMR. The AMR/TWA situation ended badly and could have gone better; the bottom-line is there never would have been a TWA/AMR deal if the majority of TWA employees had your attitude through all their bad years, they would have disappeared years before the event.

That does not change any of the fact pertaining to our current situation.

To have any chance of making it through where we are today, more concessions are coming. The majority of people, at the end of the day want and need this job; they do not “look forward to a year off on unem-ployment while being re-trainedâ€￾ as suggested on this message board.

To counsel the membership otherwise is a disservice to your fellow co-workers, the ones that need and want this job…kind of like the parity era where AFA convinced everyone what a terrible deal it was to have a par-ity contract, while over the next few years the pilots received a 32% raise.

Advising your membership to blow off this topic will result in them all losing their jobs. For those of here that do not want to deal with this anymore you should be well on your way towards looking for employment, you should be interviewing, etc.

More pain is ahead indeed….

700UW wrote:
Reality is the topic, well here is some reality

Eastern
Pan Am
National (two times)
Midway (three times)
Braniff (twice)
TWA
Western Pacific
And countless others.

More airlines have started and failed since deregulation in 1978, and not one of the afore mentioned carriers were saved by employee concessions.

700UW wrote:

Continental Employees were screwed in Bankruptcy by Lorenzo, that is why Section 1114 was enacted to prevent the company having a judge wipe out a contract, that is poor example of concessions, CO's em-ployees suffered for years and are still not in the top tier of pay.

And as for TWA you will not see many TWA employees left at AA, they were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list unless you worked at STL or MCI, the rest got screwed and were all laid off.

That my fellow poster is reality.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

How is that screwed?


I'd love for you to explain the screwing they got? Weren't the 2 BK's bank in the '80's? Like say 20 friggin' years ago? most of those folks are long gone!

How is that screwed you ask?

"At Continental, Lorenzo was unable - some would say unwilling - to negotiate any further with the airline's labor unions. Lorenzo filed for bankruptcy. The move allowed him to fire union employees and restart the airline with a non-union staff. He cut wages in half and forced new rules requiring longer hours, shorter breaks, and no guaranteed time off. "

Read more at : Chasing the Sun

And for the record, Continental's last bankruptcy was in the early to mid 90's,1993 if I'm not mistaken.

Bethune DID turn things at Continental around, but it didn't happen overnight either.

 

[ktflyhome]

First of all Mr. Piney Bob, NO ONE IS QUITTING!!!! AND THERE IS NOT PLAN, IF KNOW THERE IS....THEN SHOW US ALL!!! By the way, did you just come back from having a nice little lunchy poo and cocktail with the SAVIOR OF USAIRWAYS???? The almighty magician who pulled a "wabbit " of of his hat for all of us? Yea, he sure has pulled something out....a big fat CARROT. Give me a break. :down:

 

[FlyingHippie]

Thank You USAirboyA330. My sentiments exactly. I was just about ready to respong to Mr. UseYourHead. HAHA!!!Airbus 330----International Dinosaurs. I would say their lives haven't changed much at all. They may miss some of their cronies who got sent back to domestic. And as far as the comment made by usflyboi about flexibility. WHOOOOA.....I have zero flexibility in my life now. Zip, nada, none! And much less pay. I don't have anything else to lose. So, I figure the only ones who are gonna suck up to the company and take more concessions are the ones who will have not much to lose. I just flew with and ex-Transatlantic mama, talk about no clue and indifference <_<

ktflyhome senior mammas and junior pukes are the same at every airline, there's no guarantee in the aviation business. Just rememeber the senior mammas negotiated these good contracts that the junior pukes now enjoy. Keep that in perspective. What kills me is that no junior puke would want to work here had it not been for the senior mammas negotiating decent work rules and pay. Everybody wants to rule the world.....

 

[FlyingHippie]

Earth to people. Don't even look back at previous Chapter 11 filings. Sure CAL, AWA, and a few others have made it through. BUT, NONE OF THEM had to deal with today's onslaught of low cost carriers. That my friends is the new equation. It's sink or swim time. Are you willing to work extra days and change your lifestyle? This is the hard reality because it's going to take working harder for less money and benefits to even keep this airline in business.

 

[ktflyhome]

Flying Hippie, I am no senior mama and I am no junior puke. I kind of fall somewhere in between in IMOHO. I have voted NO on EVERY contract presented to me. I took this job because I wanted to be a F/A PERIOD. At that time I was totally oblivious to any contract or Union for that matter. I don't want to rule anything or anyone, I just want to work. Most every trip I do, I am most Junior. I have met wonderful "senior Mama's, I am close in age to most of them. I just started out alot later. I have been a Primary Block Holder,Secondary Blockholder and now back on RSV. I will plug away as long as we are Here. So I do try to keep things in perspective. Everyone has to pay their dues in this business. I understand that fully, but I honestly don't know what else there is to give back to this company. :huh:

 

[FlyingHippie]

Flying Hippie, I am no senior mama and I am no junior puke. I kind of fall somewhere in between in IMOHO. I have voted NO on EVERY contract presented to me. I took this job because I wanted to be a F/A PERIOD. At that time I was totally oblivious to any contract or Union for that matter. I don't want to rule anything or anyone, I just want to work. Most every trip I do, I am most Junior. I have met wonderful "senior Mama's, I am close in age to most of them. I just started out alot later. I have been a Primary Block Holder,Secondary Blockholder and now back on RSV. I will plug away as long as we are Here. So I do try to keep things in perspective. Everyone has to pay their dues in this business. I understand that fully, but I honestly don't know what else there is to give back to this company. :huh:

ktflyhome totally understand. What people need to get a grip with is their personal options. It's my own opinion, that those employees under the age of 47 have more options elsewhere than here. Those over 47 and particularly those over 50 are pretty much done in the airline business. These are the cold hard facts. Therefore, the older employees with the least options have the most incentive to give more concessions. The bigger question is - after more concessions what kind of workplace is this going to be? If I am a younger aged employee should I stay? Big questions with no easy answers.

 

[ktflyhome]

First of all Piiney Bob....FYI I don't wear panties. Can't afford them. And I am not Kitty, I am KTFLYHOME. Can't you read? NO!. You are too busy hearing yourself talk( or should I say feeling yourself type)

And FLying Hippie....guess I am over the Hill. Thanks for the input.

 

[ktflyhome]

Piney Bob: Since You seem to have all of the anwers, just what are the requirements for posting on this board? Intellectually speaking that is.

 

[USAirBoyA330]

Katie:

Just ignore PineyBob...
Lord knows I stopped reading his posts a long time ago. It will just made your blood pressure boil. It's not worth it.