Question?

[Hopeful]

Hopeful;

I have to dissagree with you on one point.

You said that when the other airlines discontinue their pension plans that AA will be at a disadvantage.

Not true.

You see our concessions were so deep, so drastic that not only is the pension liability reduced, but our other concesions such as holidays and loss of vacation more than pay for the pension. Those two concessions account for over $5000 less per year in earnings.

Bob, what I meant to say was that is what AA will claim when it happens at the other carriers!

But you are right!

 

[Mark Inman]

The Board has determined that the single craft or class of Airline Mechanics, Ground Service, Plant Maintenance, and Fleet Service Personnel is no longer a proper craft or class at' either American or TWA-LLC. The proper crafts or classes are Mechanics and Related Employees, and Fleet Service Employees. American Airlines, Inc./TWA Airlines, LLC., 29 NMB 240, 251 (2002).1. NO VOTE NO PEACE!!!!! That does say the board right dick I mean kevin?

 

[Decision 2004]

The Concept of “Craft or Class"

This is Federal Legal concept “Craft or Classâ€￾

In accordance with the Railway Labor Act, the Federal Government has decided that certain work groups have a mutuality of interest at the bargaining table and in advancing worker related issues, and that groups outside of that particular craft or class should have no participation in how the union is run or at least in the initial decision as to who represents that work group. And so Pilots vote with Pilots, and Flight Attendants as matter of law are prohibited from voting with the Pilots. And in turn, the Pilots are prohibited by law from voting with the Flight Attendants because they are considered to be in different Craft or Classes by the National Mediation Board. And Mechanic and Related Workers within the Airline Industry are entitled by law to vote just amongst themselves.

Supporters of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) believe that it comprises our mission to remain associated within a union structure with other crafts or classes that according to Federal Government do NOT share our mutuality of interest. The mission is further compromised when we remain associated with other crafts or classes within the union structure of “majority ruleâ€￾ and our particular craft or class is the minority in size. The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) is the only union in this current debate at American Airlines that says “We will forbid ourselvesâ€￾, it will be unconstitutional for us to go and represent baggage handlers, flight attendants, or passenger service clerks, and we will not let ourselves do that because this would compromise our mission. We wish the baggage handlers and other crafts or classes on the property the very best, but they cannot pick our pockets, we wish them to get the very best on their own, but they should no longer be allowed to ride on our backs. In other words, it is time for the airline industry to decouple the mechanic vs. baggage handler pay and benefit structure. It is suffice to say that since deregulation of the airline industry which since enactment has created enormous competition and pressure on airline ticket pricing, and that has resulted in the craft or class of mechanic and related workers suffering in economic buying power, and especially when compared to the Pilots and Flight Attendants who at American belong to craft specific unions. In the mid 1970’s, the Flight Attendants of American Airlines were also represented by the Transport Workers Union of American (TWU), and just as the mechanics today seek a change to a craft specific union, they also left the TWU in favor of the independent Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) The craft or class of Mechanic and Related at American Airlines can no longer afford to remain in an organization that advocates a linking of different work groups that according to law do not share a mutuality of interest.

Regardless of good or bad economic times, and regardless of whether the union is negotiating concessions to prevent a bankruptcy filing or negotiating from economic growth with corporate profits, the formula by which the economic pie is divided amongst the union membership is a union decision. The recent concession are a clear case in point, because American Airlines was demanding $620 Million in concessions from the TWU, but how those give backs were divided up was a union decision, not a company decision. And the facts are clear, that the craft or class of Mechanic and Related at American took more than our fair share of that amount, and it is also clear this was a union decision.

AMFA IS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR SKILLED TECHNICIANS

 

[Decision 2004]

I find the posting of this thread most interesting.

The TWU has ran a negative campaing from the start against AMFA.

TWU Informer, ANTI-AMFA Video, ANTI-AMFA t-shirts, Calvin Pissing on AMFA stickers, Coffin/Trailer with Flag, altered pictures of Delle-Femine, and the majority (not all) of the name calling and negative postings on this bulletin board are by far owned by TWU advocates.

And then CIO has the nerve to make this posting. Maybe this is the new stratgey of Abernathy and the AFL-CIO. If this is the case, then this will get really fun watching them try to run a positive campaign defending the last twenty years of the TWU at AA.

 

[Checking it Out]

Dave, all the posts on these threads are my own opinions. I receive no monetary benefits. I also believe the TWU is the best choice in representation.

No matter how you spin it, the TWU membership have made the wise choice! If you read some of my other posts you will also see that I said negative campaigning works! So far, Amfa has done such an injustice to its members its easy to point out their faults.

The NMB determines who is in the Mechanic's Class and Craft! Not Amfa! If they are so pure than why are they suing at United to retain the same members you are so desperately trying to eliminate at AA?

Have a Wonderful Day! Remember having a positive mental Attitude brings far more greater rewards in life!!!!!!

 

[Hopeful]

Supporting the TWU because they prefer to save jobs by giving up major concessions is like voting for a president based on only one issue! If they save jobs which force the remaining workers to get second jobs and send spouses to work and make major changes to their lifestyles, sounds like a majority suffering more. I don't wish to see anyone on the street. But layoffs have been a part of the working person's life since people became working people. Concessions were unheard of at a time in this country. Real unions of all industries chose layoffs over concessions. And when those laid off returned to work, they returned to better salary and benefits.
This all changed when unions buckled in to companies demands following Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers. The last strong stance was the IAM at Eastern Airlines in the face of Lorenzo. Ask any former Eastern employee if they have any regrets. I know of none. Every former EAL mechanic I know would do it all over again. And this is after divorces, loss of houses, relocation, etc.

The TWU has NEVER EVER put up a fight.

This is the union which recommended a yes vote in 1995 for the 6 1/2% over 6 year debacle of contract when AA saw some of its most profitable years.

ALL WITHOUT THE THE THREAT OF BANKRUPTCY!

How many mechanic jobs were given away starting in 1983?

I suppose that was ok because the ramp people got the jobs.

SRPs? OSMs?

What next, CIO?

Will line cargo and cabin service start doing maintenance work with a handful of A&P's signing off their work?



If you think the TWU is the best coice for representaion, you may be right. But it is not the best choice for the mechanic's representation!

 

[Hackman]

HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO GIVE UP IN ORDER TO SAVE JOBS AND EVERYTIME AA THREATENS BANKRUPTCY?

0---Not a cent more!!!!!, unfortunately many have already expressed the willingness to go to a matching 401k equal to or greater than the traditional pension. I remember when AA offered a lump sum payment for retires and many squandered it away and AA had bad publicity over it!

Hopeful, do you believe AA is struggling to stay at the top? I don't believe closing the doors is the answer! I think looking for the good and improving on them is a better approach.

Rusty, Yes, I work out of my Box! I also hold an A&P license. shop steward and sarg-of-arms and enjoy working with the EDR machine in our shop. The supervisors dislike me as well as some of the TWU members and definitely the Amfa supporters. Does this worry me? No! Will I continue to do what I believe is in the best interest of the membership? You bet!!!! I learned a long time ago, you will not make everyone happy, Some choose to be dis-grunted and unhappy! Complain about everything whether it is right or wrong that is there nature! How you choose life is your choice! Having a positive mental attitude is a better solution in Life!

Go back and read the last 8 posts or the next two and see how many made a positive comment? You will see what I am talking about!

Geez cio, we have NOTHING left to give!!!! We lost not only pay (which is the lowest of the big six), but 50 years of benefits and one concession no other AA group has except the AMT's , half-pay sick time for the first two sick days. We also have thousands of layoffs, we were assured that layoffs would be minimal, I guess 3000 is minimal.

Not a cent more....until the twu due$ machine is threatened again with Chapter 7 liquidation and the twu ultimate liar, little jimmy, scares the membership with take it or else!!!! The twu will never fight this company. The twu international is a business union that will never feel the pain inflicted on its membership as a result of the their inaction, weakness, and lies. The twu internationals' untouchable dictators still get their huge raises and six figure salaries along with a job for life.

The twu sloganism on a t-shirt is the best fight the twu can mount against AA managment. "Will Strike if Provoked", "twu Proud", "Proud Union Member", "Show Me the Shared Sacrifice!!!, and now your new one would fit right in...Not a Cent More!!! a new twu slogan classic. I makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

Cio, (Kevin Gorrmans) you have been lying and telling tall twu stories for a long time on many a BB. You are in a classic.....your twu fog is stuff of legend. You lie all most unconsciously, and when you are called on it, your defense is to call us disgruntled, and unhappy. I saw you come in the Brady in January on your recon mission. I watched you look around the theater with a puzzled look for a few minutes, and then storm out. You didn't ask any questions? Why? Did you know you would have had a chance to ask as many as you wanted? No limit! Unlike the twu farce, where the AMFA supporters that did come in were heckeled and ridiculed. The Brady was a professional AMFA meeting inside, with your nemesis (Dell )and all of the AMFA National players. You guys stood out in the rain and called us scabs and brought your coffin and a bunch of negative anti-AMFA signs. Who are you calling disgruntled and negative again?

The only negativity I have is toward the twu and how worthless, corrupt, and unaccountable they really are. I would almost rather have no union than the corrupt twu. I hate what the company has done to us, but I can't really blame them. If I had a weak union like the twu, I would most likely come after them for money or whatever I could get, because that's business... nothing personal. I understand that. However, what I will NEVER understand is how my union, that is paid to fight for me, will never throw a punch. They run around the ring like a coward, duck and cover, and hope that the members believe in the 15th round, the twu will come out swinging!!! Its time to throw in the towel cio!!!! Your twu is beat!!!!

Of the many positives in my life, one of the best ones is knowing the twu will be ousted for the M@R at AA very soon!!!!

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, and Felons. The twu's finest.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

 

[Raptor]

Dave, all the posts on these threads are my own opinions. I receive no monetary benefits. I also believe the TWU is the best choice in representation.

No matter how you spin it, the TWU membership have made the wise choice! If you read some of my other posts you will also see that I said negative campaigning works! So far, Amfa has done such an injustice to its members its easy to point out their faults.

The NMB determines who is in the Mechanic's Class and Craft! Not Amfa! If they are so pure than why are they suing at United to retain the same members you are so desperately trying to eliminate at AA?

Have a Wonderful Day! Remember having a positive mental Attitude brings far more greater rewards in life!!!!!!

CIO if you believe that then practice what you preach and start being positive from now on, that means NO more attacks against AMFA or anything else, nothing but positive attitude and comments, if you can't do this then SHUT UP you are no more positive than anyone else.

CIO Being positive is very difficult for both sides as you stated Negative works and people who want to win have a tendancy to do what works 😉

You know no one is forcing you to come here everyday the drive is over so why do you keep coming to the board, you must like all of this conflict or you would just stop showing up. <_<

Have a nice day 😀

 

[Nightwatch]

I hate what the company has done to us, but I can't really blame them.

Spoken like a true amfa man.

 

[Hackman]

Spoken like a true amfa man.

Like an AMFA man Nitebitch? Hardly. Just the truth. This company prays on weak minded twu fools like you are, something you should have seen by now in your short time here at Arrogant Airlines. They take advantage of the twu because they are easy prey. I've never been a twu believer, I've never been a supervisor, or even MPR as one. You take my comment out of context, a twu trait you've learned quickly with your short time in the twu fog.

If you want to see a twu/company man though, see your alter-ego..... earl. He knows all about ratting on people, rifling through toolboxs looking for dirt, and yes, even being management coffee go-fer in the supervisors office.

Nice try though.

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, and Felons. The twu's finest.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

 

[Nightwatch]

I hate what the company has done to us, but I can't really blame them.

Now just how did I take your statement out of context. Was it the " I hate what the company has done to us" or the "but I can't really blame them."

If the company has taken advantage of anyone it is the membership. Your membership brother. You amfaites claimed 80% card signed, then 80% of our membership voted on the contracts for the last 40 years, and voted on the concessionary package and passed all of the above. The company takes advantage of who? They voted to save their jobs, then looked for someone to lay blame on, nice floor action.

You do however do sound like a company sellout man, and why not, you want the outsourcing wizards, I mean amfa, here don't you?

 

[Hackman]

Now just how did I take your statement out of context. Was it the " I hate what the company has done to us" or the "but I can't really blame them."

If the company has taken advantage of anyone it is the membership. Your membership brother. You amfaites claimed 80% card signed, then 80% of our membership voted on the contracts for the last 40 years, and voted on the concessionary package and passed all of the above. The company takes advantage of who? They voted to save their jobs, then looked for someone to lay blame on, nice floor action.

You do however do sound like a company sellout man, and why not, you want the outsourcing wizards, I mean amfa, here don't you?

First. Don't ever call me your brother.... that's twu/iam/ibt/afl-cio speak, and you can see where thats got us. Last among the big six with the twu, and sinking further still. Also, a coward like yourself could never be my brother.

Second. Did you read the sentence after my quote you so conveniently picked out?
Here you are; "If I had a weak union like the twu, I would most likely come after them for money or whatever I could get, because that's business... nothing personal." GET IT??

Third. If you had a business Nitebitch.....losing money, with weak minded and corrupt twu leadership who swallowed whatever you told them. You wouldn't BS them, and say; "Hey fools, I'm going into Chapter 7 Liquidation tomorrow, and if you do not give me what ever I ask for, your gonna be out on your ass, sleeping in the street in a cardboard box". Uhhh, ok boss.

"If the company has taken advantage of anyone its the membership". DUH!!! Your a friggin' twu genius!!!!!. Why is that moron? Do you remember chicken little running around telling us the AA Chapter 7 sky is falling??? The twu sold this as hard as the company did!!! Twu Dupes like you believed it!!!! You voted "yes" didn't you?? CAN YOU ADMIT IT??? I've never voted "yes" on any of the twu contracts I've seen, because they all were SH*TTY!!! The result of your twu yes vote is what you have now, the lowest paid employees at another failing airline. The whole industry seeking concessions from their mechanics because the twu caved in. No change in the management business plan except to cut costs, cut jobs, and keep right on that same failed path. Concessions only prolong the agony of a failed business plan. You should have learned this at TWA!!! However, you not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you???

This is something you should know better than anyone Nitebitch. Did your failed TWA did get saved by your foolish iam concessions???

"Voting" in the twu is like getting a loan from the Mob. Read the book "In Transit" and see how twu "votes" are conducted.

Again Nitebitch, do some research and find out who started the outsourcing at NWA, UAL, SWA, and US Air. I'll give you a clue since you don't have one: It wasn't AMFA!!!!

The twscrew saving jobs?? Again, please go tell that to the thousands of AMTs AA has on the street. When they get recalled, if ever, it won't be to a full paid AMT position!!!!

Punks, Drunks, Cowards, Functional Illiterates, and Felons. The twu's finest

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

 

[Mark Inman]

ATTACHMENT 1.1 – CONTRACTING OUT WORK 237 238 From: C.R. Smith 239 To: Francis A. O’Neill 240 Re: Contracting Out Work 241 242 March 9, 1950 243 244 The contracting out of work has become an issue in our negotiations with TWU because 245 the union believes this practice may threaten the job security of its members. To show 246 that such fears are groundless I shall review our policy. 247 248 Our policy has been and is to maintain a stable work force. Few, if any, employees 249 have been laid off because we have contracted work to others. In 1949 American 250 Airlines, Inc. had the best record for continuity of employment in its mechanical 251 department that it has ever had, even though it was necessary to give some non-252 recurring work to outside contractors. 253 254 In 1949 we scheduled our work in such fashion that there would be an orderly flow of 255 work through the plants. The program was successful enough to provide the highest 256 record of stable employment in the history of the company. One of the contributing 257 factors to an orderly flow of work was our program to farm out such work as was beyond 258 the capacity of our plants. We farmed out no projects that could have been 259 accomplished in our plants. All of our people were busy during the year. How then can 260 it be construed that the company will now find it desirable to contract out work that our 261 employees have the time and facilities to get done? 262 263 The union has sought a severance pay formula. Even though it has not been 264 demonstrated that work contracted out is, has or will jeopardize the security of the 265 employees, the severance pay plan gives an additional measure of security. This is a 266 new provision, unique in the air transport industry. 267 268 Nobody on the payroll will benefit by a program, which would require us to hire 269 temporary employees to take care of peak or non-recurring work, and to discharge them 270 as soon as the peak had gone. This, from our point of view, is a wastefully expensive 271 way of doing business, because it is inefficient. We must, therefore, retain the right to 272 give to others the work that our regular employees have not time to handle. 273 274 There are several things in airline operation, which principally affect the continuity of 275 employment; the volume of the business, the schedules to be operated and the 276 workload available. We will do the best we can to assure that each of these factors 277 contributes to stability and continuity of employment; we cannot and do not contract 278 about their volume, for we do not control that. 279 280 Our policy has enabled us to maintain a stable work force. We recognize its benefits 281 and see no reason to change the policy. 282 ARTICLE 1 – RECOGNITION AND SCOPE
Hey HSS will you point out some pillars for me? Your a selfserving lier! There is no pillars here. Why would Twu stand by without saying a word when AA signed a new contract on 757, 767, 777, and A-300 APU's while AA was gutting the APU shop in KC? Why would twscrew stand by and let AA outsource all the lease return checks while we have mechanics on layoff ? Why did Twscrew stand by while AA cut ASM's for the mainline carrier and increase ASM's on AE by 46% and add 2 more reagionals ontop of that in violation of our contract. The only pillars we have at AA is the mechanics standing united when AA does these things but twscrew has spent 20 years dividing the mechanics craft and class so they can shove these crappy contracts through. Twscrew has every other Airline in the country scrambling trying to bring there pay and benefits down to Twscrew represented mechanics rates. US Air outsorces most of there heavy maintiance and still fills undercut by twscrew workers. If it were not for having the highest paid fleet services and stores workers in the industry this would be the largest lowcost carrier in the world. The scary part of all this is the company let you do it. AA is more interested in keeping there lapdog than flight safty. The Board has determined that the single craft or class of Airline Mechanics, Ground Service, Plant Maintenance, and Fleet Service Personnel is no longer a proper craft or class at either American or TWA-LLC. The proper crafts or classes are Mechanics and Related Employees, and Fleet Service Employees. American Airlines, Inc./TWA Airlines, LLC., 29 NMB 240, 251 (2002).1. NO VOTE :angry: NO PEACE!!!!!