Prater Road Shows

[EyeInTheSky]

Prove it! Let's negotiate a Joint Contract and put it out for a vote. If you're correct you have nothing to worry about, right?

Prove it, drop the Nicolau "Lottery Ticket" Award/Windfall. So, if you don't do that, why the heck should East even bother with contract negotiations? Fair is fair, right? East has the cards in place for a new union vote; you'll see.

Later,
Eye

 

[hp_fa]

I want to know if there is any East pilot here who would, if the situations were reversed and DOH had been the award, be advocating tossing the award. I know talk is cheap as compared to deeds, but I am still wanting to hear if any of you would be talking of tossing an award had you won.

 

[IMisstheAladdinTrays]

I want to know if there is any East pilot here who would, if the situations were reversed and DOH had been the award, be advocating tossing the award. I know talk is cheap as compared to deeds, but I am still wanting to hear if any of you would be talking of tossing an award had you won.

If it had gone in the "East's" favor, would the "West" defend it so?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ex717,

Ex717 said: "Prove it! Let's negotiate a Joint Contract and put it out for a vote. If you're correct you have nothing to worry about, right?"

USA320Pilot comments: The East pilots will not waste their time because USAPA and their attorney's believe they can get the Nicolau Award vacated, a seniority list imposed on the West, and then a joint contract obtained. By negotiating with the West on a new list, which would prevent a DFR lawsuit, the list proposed by the East would become the new integrated award after voting was completed by the East and West per the new Constitution and By-laws according to Lee Seham.

By the way, how can their be a joint contract now that the East has pulled out of joint negotiations?

However, I now understand that Doug Dotter is negotiating with the Rice Committee on a "realistic solution." Maybe this action will cause a change of direction for the East pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[P51Pilot]

I want to know if there is any East pilot here who would, if the situations were reversed and DOH had been the award, be advocating tossing the award. I know talk is cheap as compared to deeds, but I am still wanting to hear if any of you would be talking of tossing an award had you won.

If it had gone DOH, I for one would have advocated conditions and restrictions that would have guaranteed the West a percentage of upgrades in each bid based off their attrition and new flying, fencing of respective bases for upgrades, no bump no flush protections, and down turn protections requiring a inverse percentages for downgrades as well as no furlough protections if there was a RIF within 5 years of the merger.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I wouldn't be too sure of that one.

Even your reps are afraid to put a TA on the table because they know there is a very good chance it would be voted in.

Sure it would pass if the full pension was restored. But that would never happen due to the West's GREED. They would want all of that too.

When everyone looks at your contract as the trailer park of contracts. The AWA MEC will walk over anyone to get away from stink. What industry leading contract are you under now?

 

[BottomFeeder]

Prove it, drop the Nicolau "Lottery Ticket" Award/Windfall. So, if you don't do that, why the heck should East even bother with contract negotiations? Fair is fair, right? East has the cards in place for a new union vote; you'll see.
Later,
Eye

Hey Eye,

The AWA guys are telling all that it is just a few Easties that are upset. Even the AWA MEC believes this. Wait till the vote comes and then watch the old 2 step by AWA MEC.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The East pilots will not waste their time because USAPA and their attorney's believe they can get the Nicolau Award vacated, a seniority list imposed on the West, and then a joint contract obtained.

You've already showed us a letter from your attorney that most assuredly did not say this. Is there another letter you're hiding from us? If not, you'd best confer with counselor Seham to help you comprehend. You might also wish to familiarize yourself with the concept of ex post facto. Good luck in your quest for knowledge and understanding.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Prove it, drop the Nicolau "Lottery Ticket" Award/Windfall.

There comes a point when opinions stop mattering and only facts will do. Your opinion of a windfall for the West was debunked by the arbitrator you empowered and the ALPA Executive Council found no improprieties. No judge will touch an arbitrator's decision without proof of misdeeds, of which you have none. Ergo, there is no defacto windfall for either side. If you have any facts (not opinions) to prove me wrong go ahead. Otherwise, your opinion is worth exactly what mine is: nothing!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Ok All thanks again. I am just as guilty of commenting off topic. Do we have anyone who wants to post an update on the CLT roadshow?

 

[ClueByFour]

Ex717,

Ex717 said: "Prove it! Let's negotiate a Joint Contract and put it out for a vote. If you're correct you have nothing to worry about, right?"

USA320Pilot comments: The East pilots will not waste their time because USAPA and their attorney's believe they can get the Nicolau Award vacated, a seniority list imposed on the West, and then a joint contract obtained. By negotiating with the West on a new list, which would prevent a DFR lawsuit, the list proposed by the East would become the new integrated award after voting was completed by the East and West per the new Constitution and By-laws according to Lee Seham.

Is this the same group with an equally (if not more so) qualified attorney that thought they'd get DOH past the arbitrator?

Nevermind. That's rhetorical.

Two things to consider (absent the track record of some thus far on how the seniority integration process would go):

1. The west can hold any process up for "years."

2. The TA and Nicolau are binding upon any of ALPA's successors. See #1.

Dan Katz, much like Seham, has an idiot for a client. Both have (and will) continue to take your money regardless of that fact.

 

[Busdrvr]

If it had gone DOH, I for one would have advocated conditions and restrictions that would have guaranteed the West a percentage of upgrades in each bid based off their attrition and new flying, fencing of respective bases for upgrades, no bump no flush protections, and down turn protections requiring a inverse percentages for downgrades as well as no furlough protections if there was a RIF within 5 years of the merger.

Percentage of upgrades?
would that mean that one out of every three upgrades would go to the west? Or would it mean the east gets almost all of them since they have the most retirements?

Fencing of bases?
Why would you want that? Why would the company agree to that? What a management nightmare.
Although all knowing (but never right) USA320 thinks everybody wants to bid to LGA or Sh1tsburg, here's a news flash. THEY DON'T. There's a reason people retire to Arizona... Now Charlotte is another story...a place on Norman, Wateree or Murray....

No Bump, No flush and furlough protection?
I got furlough protection...about 1.5 years before I got furloughed :down:
No Bump, No flush is a fancy way of Saying the AWA guys get to be permenent reserves. Nothing like no upward movement. Now about the "furlough protection". I take that to mean you would furlough a "more senior" U guy who just got back from furlough before you canned a "senior" AWA F/O who got hired in 2003. Hmmm. For only five years though, huh? Now let me think about this....this is comming from a group that thinks that they can rewrite an Arbitration Award by changing unions and declaring a "do-over"...Are you goign to tell me that this same group of moral men would hesitate to attempt a "do-over" if there was a RIF in 2 years? Right... I can hear it now. "Bob only has 5 mores years to retirement, he's got to support his three ex-wives, Johnny from the west is only 45 years old....lets change the rules (again)...Johnny has time to make up his loses after Bob retires...it's only fair, Bobs 'more senior'..."

I don't think any "offer" from the east could be considered without a great deal of caution and mistrust. It's ironic though, you fall just short of saying that you would essentially give the West the benefits Nic's award gave them. The only differance (if the east was to be trusted) is that the protection would expire in 5 years. Let me guess, you have more than five years to go... In any case, why don't we give you a certificate that awards you an "honorary DOH seniority number" You could hang it in the den and still bid and fly based on the Nic decision. You could call it a "moral victory". Heck, they could even let all the east guys have four stripes and a Captains hat!!

 

[Phoenix]

Ok All thanks again. I am just as guilty of commenting off topic. Do we have anyone who wants to post an update on the CLT roadshow?

I did not attend but ...
Two reports from other boards:

Prater said: The “No Wind Fallâ€￾ is a vehicle to make merging MEC’s agree on a single seniority list and is NOT necessarily ALPA policy once arbitration is required. In other words ALPA policy is only considered before arbitration, not during it.

Prater says the Nic award is here to stay and will be implemented once there is a joint contract.

CLT FO Rep “loudlyâ€￾ pointed out that Parker forced the East to give our DC plan, and profit sharing to the West and got NOTHING in return. (It was a valiant attempt to distract everyone's notice from the skirt.)

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I did not attend but ...
Two reports from other boards:

Prater said: The “No Wind Fallâ€￾ is a vehicle to make merging MEC’s agree on a single seniority list and is NOT necessarily ALPA policy once arbitration is required. In other words ALPA policy is only considered before arbitration, not during it.

Prater says the Nic award is here to stay and will be implemented once there is a joint contract.

CLT FO Rep “loudlyâ€￾ pointed out that Parker forced the East to give our DC plan, and profit sharing to the West and got NOTHING in return. (It was a valiant attempt to distract everyone's notice from the skirt.)

Thanks for the post. I hope it was accurate.

Wow!! When did that interpretation of policy come about? First time I have ever heard that point of view expressed by anyone. What a major blunder on his part to even profer such a view. So in affect, he said there is no policy. Geez. What's next? We only have the Constitution and ByLaws because it looks good to have one. But it doesn't mean a thing unless it suits us.

Gotta love the CLT reps. At least they are consistent. Wonder what Parker and Glass will extract from them next time.

What a wake up call!! All I can say now is "Later Prater".

 

[767jetz]

Prove it! Let's negotiate a Joint Contract and put it out for a vote. If you're correct you have nothing to worry about, right?

Agreed. Everything USA320pilot is simply what the MEC (the guys who caused the mess and are perpetuating it for their personal agenda) wants the public, the west, and the EC to hear. It's the same regurgitated tag lines and sound bits over and over and over again. It is all rehearsed, coached, and practiced. They are trying to put on a show of force and resolve because that is all they have... the THREAT of decertification. That is all.

They know that it is the vocal minority that attends their union meetings, goes to rallies and pickets, etc. etc. at the request of their dysfunctional leadership. What they don't want others to know is that there is a larger group of rational and reasonable pilots who go to work, then go home to their families and leave the work stuff at the gate. Their career is a means to an end and they don't live and breath ALPA, USAPA, stripes on their shoulders, etc. They don't post on message boards much. They just want to improve their lot in life, improve their pay, and improve their quality of life and that of their families. They couldn't care less about toting the MEC's unreasonable tag lines. And given the chance, they would vote with their wallets, vote for a reasonable Joint Contract, and vote the MEC right out of a job.

If this weren't true, they would have put something out for a vote already, or they would have ditched ALPA by now.