Prater Road Shows

[hp_fa]

hp_fa,

Quite frankly, an award this lopsided should shock everyone. You can go back through negotiations prior to Nicolau and see that there were MANY proposed protections for HP pilots and their bases. Everyone agreed it would be detrimental to have DOH and then have pilots transferring into PHX or LAS wreaking havoc - that was never going to happen as plenty of protections were on the table.

hp_fa, no, this is about more than just flying big planes and more money. This is about having the holidays off when you have 20-plus years of service with the company, this is about paying your dues and working towards having a good schedule so you can see your family, this is about keeping all you worked for and HAVING YEARS SERVED AT THE COMPANY MEAN SOMETHING!!! Try going up to someone on the street and explain to them how at pilot hired in 1989, who has served 14 full years with the company, could be ON THE STREET after a pilot hired in 2005, who has served just 2 full years at the company.

Eye:

Thank you for the response.

I do not have any access to what actually occurred in or around the failed negotiations, so I lack the capacity to comment on what you state was the case. However, assuming the truth of what you state, why didn't your MEC or NC , through their arbitration lawyer, submit any form of modification of it's position when Mr. Nicolau requested updated proposals just before the Arbitration closed? I have read a large part of the transcripts and Mr. Katz both not providing any updated position paper and then attempting to attack West on their updated document was, in my opinion, plain stupid.

Prior to working at AWA, I did work in law for ten years and spent almost all of my time involved in litigation matters. When an arbitrator or judge asks you if you have a modified position just before deliberations it is usually a big hint that something is not going well for one or both parties and that perhaps a modification, or even requesting a halt to proceedings for a day or two to try and negotiate something, might be both well-considered and time well spent. It was unwise, in my opinion, of Mr. Katz to both not have a revised position and to attack the revised AWA position.

Anyway, thank you again for the well-written and considered response to my query.

 

[AWA320]

This is where you guys really go off the reservation. It is clear you simply want to put someone who was furloughed at the pre-merger USAirways ahead of someone who was working and never furloughed at the pre-merger America West. Now THAT is unconscionable and immoral! Furloughed pilots have never been considered ahead of active pilots in any merger ever in history, nor should they.

The precarious situation of being at the bottom of the US list and being subject to furlough during an economic down turn after 14 years of service is obviously not an enviable place to be. But that was the reality of life at USAirways. If that is where your career choices put you and if you are not happy with that, then you should have moved on to brighter pastures. It should not be rectified at the expense of someone at AWA. Doing so would create a windfall of epic proportion.

When I was hired at TWA, I was at the bottom of the list of a twice bankrupt, financially troubled airline. I knew that if another BK occurred, or even an economic downturn for that matter, I would be subject to furlough. I was not happy with that situation. So I decided that staying at TWA would not be in my best interest. Had I stayed like many of my friends and not gone on to UA, I would currently be a furloughed American pilot. I had no expectation that my years of service and DOH would protect me outside of TWA. Neither did my friends now furloughed from American. Every one of them moved on to brighter pastures, and now will soon decide whether or not to return to American based on their tolerance of being at the bottom again. Everyone one else in this industry seems to understand this except the US East pilots. They are hell bent on their power (seniority) grab to correct decades of unfortunate career circumstances and decision on the backs of another group. Very sad.

I don't think it can be said any better than that!!!!

 

[AWA320]

Just to let you know he did say the award is flawed, but it followed ALPA merger policy. I also asked him about your "We have his ear "comment. He said he represents and answers to all ALPA pilots. More later.

If you don't see the problem with the president of the association making a statment such as this than you simply don't get it!!! He is supposed to be non biased on matters such as this however he has not been and I am now more than ever certain that he will not complete his term in office, now that's sad.

 

[AWA320]

QUOTE(USA320Pilot @ Aug 24 2007, 01:52 AM)
USA320Pilot comments: The East pilots will not waste their time because USAPA and their attorney's believe they can get the Nicolau Award vacated, a seniority list imposed on the West, and then a joint contract obtained. By negotiating with the West on a new list, which would prevent a DFR lawsuit, the list proposed by the East would become the new integrated award after voting was completed by the East and West per the new Constitution and By-laws according to Lee Seham


USA320 DO YOU EVER STOP CONTRIDICTING YOURSELF?????????


Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen, LLC – Attorney’s at Law

11 Martine Avenue, Suite 1450 White Plains, NY 10606


August 20, 2007


Interim President
US Airline Pilots Association
McMurray, PA 15317

Re: Seniority Integration Issues

Dear Mr Bradford:

You have asked us to provide our legal opinion concerning whether Arbitrator Nicolau’s seniority integration arbitration award could be overturned or otherwise modified via litigation or subsequent negotiation. Federal case law supports the conclusion that any effort to overturn the Nicolau award via litigation would be fruitless. By contrast, we believe that a successor union would be free to negotiate with US Airways concerning the terms of any seniority integration.

Litigation

With respect to the litigation strategy, your inquiry is prompted by AWA MEC Vice Chairman Ray Burkett’s published assertion that: “The federal courts are extremely reluctant to even hear arbitrated cases much less interfere [sic] or overturn them.†We agree with Mr. Burkett’s assessment.

The Supreme Court has held that the grounds are very narrow for vacating an arbitration award under federal labor law. United Paperworkers v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29 (1987). Although the Nicolau award was rendered pursuant to ALPA’s internal merger policy, we believe that any reviewing court will be mindful of the standard of review applied to Railway Labor Act arbitration cases, which has been characterized as “among the narrowest known to the law.†Union Pacific R. Co. v. Sheehan, 439 U.S. 89, 91 (1978).

We have reviewed a copy of the complaint filed on behalf of the US Airways MEC in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. This litigation has virtually no chance of success.

 

[P51Pilot]

QUOTE(USA320Pilot @ Aug 24 2007, 01:52 AM)
USA320Pilot comments: The East pilots will not waste their time because USAPA and their attorney's believe they can get the Nicolau Award vacated, a seniority list imposed on the West, and then a joint contract obtained. By negotiating with the West on a new list, which would prevent a DFR lawsuit, the list proposed by the East would become the new integrated award after voting was completed by the East and West per the new Constitution and By-laws according to Lee Seham
USA320 DO YOU EVER STOP CONTRIDICTING YOURSELF?????????
Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen, LLC – Attorney’s at Law

11 Martine Avenue, Suite 1450 White Plains, NY 10606
August 20, 2007
Interim President
US Airline Pilots Association
McMurray, PA 15317

Re: Seniority Integration Issues

Dear Mr Bradford:

You have asked us to provide our legal opinion concerning whether Arbitrator Nicolau’s seniority integration arbitration award could be overturned or otherwise modified via litigation or subsequent negotiation. Federal case law supports the conclusion that any effort to overturn the Nicolau award via litigation would be fruitless. By contrast, we believe that a successor union would be free to negotiate with US Airways concerning the terms of any seniority integration.

Litigation

With respect to the litigation strategy, your inquiry is prompted by AWA MEC Vice Chairman Ray Burkett’s published assertion that: “The federal courts are extremely reluctant to even hear arbitrated cases much less interfere [sic] or overturn them.†We agree with Mr. Burkett’s assessment.

The Supreme Court has held that the grounds are very narrow for vacating an arbitration award under federal labor law. United Paperworkers v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29 (1987). Although the Nicolau award was rendered pursuant to ALPA’s internal merger policy, we believe that any reviewing court will be mindful of the standard of review applied to Railway Labor Act arbitration cases, which has been characterized as “among the narrowest known to the law.†Union Pacific R. Co. v. Sheehan, 439 U.S. 89, 91 (1978).

We have reviewed a copy of the complaint filed on behalf of the US Airways MEC in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. This litigation has virtually no chance of success.

Not to speak for 320 but


That letter was written as to speak to the current ALPA MEC's strategy and lawsuit filed against the AWA MEC. Not to USAPA, Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen, LLC – Attorney’s at Law, or the decertification effort.

 

[BottomFeeder]

If you don't see the problem with the president of the association making a statment such as this than you simply don't get it!!! He is supposed to be non biased on matters such as this however he has not been and I am now more than ever certain that he will not complete his term in office, now that's sad.

East's No vote trumps all

USAPA on the way

Baaahhh

 

[AWA320]

East's No vote trumps all

USAPA on the way

Baaahhh

Hahahahahah Wishful thinking again I see BF, you don't have the numbers and we both know it.

Have Jack Stephen explain what I talking about BF.

 

[nostradamus]

I don't think it can be said any better than that!!!!

 

[L1011Ret]

This is where you guys really go off the reservation. It is clear you simply want to put someone who was furloughed at the pre-merger USAirways ahead of someone who was working and never furloughed at the pre-merger America West. Now THAT is unconscionable and immoral! Furloughed pilots have never been considered ahead of active pilots in any merger ever in history, nor should they.

The precarious situation of being at the bottom of the US list and being subject to furlough during an economic down turn after 14 years of service is obviously not an enviable place to be. But that was the reality of life at USAirways. If that is where your career choices put you and if you are not happy with that, then you should have moved on to brighter pastures. It should not be rectified at the expense of someone at AWA. Doing so would create a windfall of epic proportion.

When I was hired at TWA, I was at the bottom of the list of a twice bankrupt, financially troubled airline. I knew that if another BK occurred, or even an economic downturn for that matter, I would be subject to furlough. I was not happy with that situation. So I decided that staying at TWA would not be in my best interest. Had I stayed like many of my friends and not gone on to UA, I would currently be a furloughed American pilot. I had no expectation that my years of service and DOH would protect me outside of TWA. Neither did my friends now furloughed from American. Every one of them moved on to brighter pastures, and now will soon decide whether or not to return to American based on their tolerance of being at the bottom again. Everyone one else in this industry seems to understand this except the US East pilots. They are hell bent on their power (seniority) grab to correct decades of unfortunate career circumstances and decision on the backs of another group. Very sad.

An honest evaluation of your situation led to positive corrective action. But on this board the thinking borders on the psychotic at times. I would not fly this carrier at this time hearing the amount of rage and threats being passed back and forth. But they cannot hear anything but the repetitive thoughts going through their heads about how they are about to be screwed. What a life forecasting getting screwed versus living today. Sad and ugly.

 

[P51Pilot]

This is where you guys really go off the reservation. It is clear you simply want to put someone who was furloughed at the pre-merger USAirways ahead of someone who was working and never furloughed at the pre-merger America West. Now THAT is unconscionable and immoral! Furloughed pilots have never been considered ahead of active pilots in any merger ever in history, nor should they.

Are you sure about that?

Why don't you go back and review the Allegheny/Lake Central merger and the Allegheny/Mohawk merger.

 

[Pi brat]

If you don't see the problem with the president of the association making a statment such as this than you simply don't get it!!! He is supposed to be non biased on matters such as this however he has not been and I am now more than ever certain that he will not complete his term in office, now that's sad.

AWA320, you are starting to just be funny now. Put some less shiny bars on you and you could be a perfect C41 pilot! You refuse to take your blinders off! He is supposed to be non biased, but if he sees something that could tear the union and this airline apart he is supposed to do something about it. He said it because it was the truth. He didn't say it wasn't fair, he just said it was flawed. If it wasn't flawed, it would be on Parker's desk now.

You guys say it isn't flawed, it's just the whinny east pilot's unwilling to go along. The reality is that the terms are so bad, the east pilots would rather go down another road.

I believe you guys have the upper hand here, but you are throwing it away.

I will post my thoughts on the meeting tomorrow, and I'm sure you will be glad that will be my last post.

 

[wopr21]

Actually, I believe it was UAL, NWA, and DAL that pushed for the change. In any case, the change occured in the early '90s and you knew about it going into arbitration so it's a little hard to listen to your complaining about it now. Notice how the AAA group is the only group today that has a problem with it?

Its because we are the only ones that have been effected by it. I wonder if this had happened to NWA,UAL, or DAL. I dont think they would be "ok" with it either. Im sure there saying "Damn ,I'm glad thats not happing to us".

wopr21

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Quite the contrary - you guys are marooned on an island.

Its because we are the only ones that have been effected by it. I wonder if this had happened to NWA,UAL, or DAL. I dont think they would be "ok" with it either. Im sure there saying "Damn ,I'm glad thats not happing to us".

wopr21

 

[wopr21]

Hahahahahah Wishful thinking again I see BF, you don't have the numbers and we both know it.

Have Jack Stephen explain what I talking about BF.

We do have the numbers to vote down a joint contract. Guess you forgot about that one. Numbers are gaining rapidly to decertify. If ALPA hands over the list to the company, believe me we will have the numbers.

wopr21

 

[767jetz]

L1011Ret said:
An honest evaluation of your situation led to positive corrective action. But on this board the thinking borders on the psychotic at times. I would not fly this carrier at this time hearing the amount of rage and threats being passed back and forth. But they cannot hear anything but the repetitive thoughts going through their heads about how they are about to be screwed. What a life forecasting getting screwed versus living today. Sad and ugly.

L1011, It is sad and very ugly.

BTW, I assume by your screen name that you are former TWA??? I plumbed the 1011 for 10 months during my time at TWA out of JFK. Wonder if we flew together. When did you retire?