Prater Road Shows

[AAA73Pilot]

Agreed. Everything USA320pilot is simply what the MEC (the guys who caused the mess and are perpetuating it for their personal agenda) wants the public, the west, and the EC to hear. It's the same regurgitated tag lines and sound bits over and over and over again. It is all rehearsed, coached, and practiced. They are trying to put on a show of force and resolve because that is all they have... the THREAT of decertification. That is all.

They know that it is the vocal minority that attends their union meetings, goes to rallies and pickets, etc. etc. at the request of their dysfunctional leadership. What they don't want others to know is that there is a larger group of rational and reasonable pilots who go to work, then go home to their families and leave the work stuff at the gate. Their career is a means to an end and they don't live and breath ALPA, USAPA, stripes on their shoulders, etc. They don't post on message boards much. They just want to improve their lot in life, improve their pay, and improve their quality of life and that of their families. They couldn't care less about toting the MEC's unreasonable tag lines. And given the chance, they would vote with their wallets, vote for a reasonable Joint Contract, and vote the MEC right out of a job.

If this weren't true, they would have put something out for a vote already, or they would have ditched ALPA by now.

What a great post preaching the praises for change. Thanks!!

I used to be one of the "Rational and reasonable pilots" who by my silence allowed this charade to prosper. I'm silent no more!! Our silence got us the attitude of ALPA National and our MEC's to treat us with contempt. To not let us even have a chance to vote is despicable(sp). And when the few chances were given, and I mean very few chances, we still got screwed. Our MEC Chaiman gave up our retirement with a stroke of the pen. Where was my vote? Thats right, I was silent.

Our reasonable pilots got screwed because of our silence. You get nothing unless your willing to fight for it. Look at the NWA pilots this summer. You think those improvements came by being silent?

The problem why ALPA is still on the property is because of the dis-unity of the reasonable pilot. There was no event, no cause to justify upsetting that peaceful existance. What it took is this mess, this point in history to unify the east like I haven't seen since coming on the property.

As for ditching ALPA? All good things take time since change can be very hard for some people. How long has USAPA been public? Just over 45 days now. Maybe longer but not by much. Support is building and gaining momentum to lead us to step 2 in the decert drive. That being the filing to the NMB. Personally it couldn't come soon enough, but I'm willing to wait. But I'm not waiting as a silent reasonable pilot.

Later Prater

 

[Junebug172]

Prater said: The “No Wind Fallâ€￾ is a vehicle to make merging MEC’s agree on a single seniority list and is NOT necessarily ALPA policy once arbitration is required. In other words ALPA policy is only considered before arbitration, not during it.

Finally!!! The policy is set to guide MC's during negotiations. Once an impasse is reached and you got into arbitration, all bets are off. You put your faith in the hands of the arbitrator.

The east chose to do this on their own.

Finally, Prater has said something intelligent (or at least his lawyers finally told him to say it).

 

[767jetz]

Prove it, drop the Nicolau "Lottery Ticket" Award/Windfall. So, if you don't do that, why the heck should East even bother with contract negotiations? Fair is fair, right? East has the cards in place for a new union vote; you'll see.

Later,
Eye

The West does not have to drop the Nicolau award because of the simple fact that they have the law on their side. ie: BINDING ARBITRATION

The East must "bother" to negotiate, because it is the EAST who refused to budge throughout the negotiating process, it is the East who is responsible for the outcome of the Nicolau award, it is the East who now wants a do-over. It's called personal responsibility, and it's time the East MEC stops playing the victim and starts taking ownership of the mess they created.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Finally!!! The policy is set to guide MC's during negotiations. Once an impasse is reached and you got into arbitration, all bets are off. You put your faith in the hands of the arbitrator.

The east chose to do this on their own.

Then what good is ALPA as a union?

And since when did this policy devolve into a guideline for pre-arbitration? If it is that trivial, why not remove it from the Constitution and ByLaws and make it a side letter of ALPA guideline policies. I think Prater really opened a can of worms with that one. And especially for any future mergers involving ALPA represented properties.

That has to be the biggest blunder I have ever seen!! I bet Behnke is rolling over in his grave about now. WOW!!

Later Prater.

 

[767jetz]

Furthermore, it appears that Doug Parker, John Prater, the ALPA EC, and the Rice Committee clearly understands the issues and problems. Who does not? The AWA MEC and its pilots (and 767jetz too).

When I said the conversation at the LGA meeting was contentious, you said I was misrepresenting information. But then Ardenian posted:

The questions were to the point, not toneddown and at times very emotional.

and you posted:

Several of our pilots engaged the ALPA reps in heated conversation. I hope more "in your face" interaction takes place along the rest of their "visits".

When I said that Capt. Prater didn’t have anything to say that your MEC liked, you said I was misrepresenting information. But then you said:

It seems like John and Ray were there more to talk than to listen. They continually tried to say how much better off we would be by staying with ALPA.

These gentlemen failed at defending the indefensible - not throwing out the Nicolau award.

All these responses seemed to attempt to do only one thing - defend ALPA

He gave numerous answers that I felt were him attempting to claim he basically felt his hands were tied.

The response was almost always BS.

I don't feel they have the means/desire/courage to rectify this wrong.

When I said that your MEC is trying to maintain control of the message that gets out to the line pilot, you said I was misrepresenting information. But then you posted:

In summary, you would have been as proud of our pilots as I was in that, unrehearsed and uncoached, they delivered the message that you would have wanted them to deliver.

You said Prater “new there was a problem.†What you are not understanding is, that doesn’t mean that he thinks the award is flawed. It only means he knows how rigidly you are holding on to your unreasonable DOH demand, and that since you didn’t get it you would be causing problems. Hence… ‘oh, oh… now we have a problem.†Get it??? The problem is with your MEC, not the award. He knows, and has said many times, that there are no grounds for the award to be vacated because it did follow merger policy.

You also said many other inaccurate things regarding pay parity, Doug Parker stepping in to rescue the East pilots, USAPA having enough cards to decert ALPA, and on and on and on. But at each turn you were told by others that these things would not happen, and now you have found yourself having to retract or modify your claims. You even have a letter from your attorney’s stating that your law suit has little chance of success, an DP refuting the inaccuracies of the quotes you attributed to him.

11 Martine Avenue, Suite 1450 White Plains, NY 10606[/b]
August 20, 2007
Interim President
US Airline Pilots Association
McMurray, PA 15317

Re: Seniority Integration Issues

Dear XXXX:
Federal case law supports the conclusion that any effort to overturn the Nicolau award via litigation would be fruitless.

With respect to the litigation strategy, your inquiry is prompted by AWA MEC Vice Chairman Ray Burkett’s published assertion that: “The federal courts are extremely reluctant to even hear arbitrated cases much less interfere [sic] or overturn them.†We agree with Mr. Burkett’s assessment.

We have reviewed a copy of the complaint filed on behalf of the US Airways MEC in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. This litigation has virtually no chance of success.

Cxxx,

Let me start by just clarifying some quotes that you attribute to me,
I did not say “the right thing to do is to pay everybody the sameâ€.
Next, I definitely did not say that the Company “budgeted $122 million at this time (for pilot contract improvements)â€.
The Company’s view is solid and consistent – we are not interested in engaging in negotiations with one group of pilots without the other group present.
Lastly, Cxxx, you raised some concerns about safety that I need to address.

Our extensive data and analysis (FOQA, ASAP, Event Reports, AQP, SOA) does not reflect a degradation in safety or any negative trends in the level of safety. If you continue to have questions or concerns about cockpit safety, though, I would encourage you to raise them with Capt. Paul Morrell, our VP – Safety and Regulatory Compliance.

So, tell us all the truth, Cxxx. Who really is continuing to spread misinformation and misrepresentations???

 

[767jetz]

Do keep us "informed" blah, blah, blah...

Boy EastUS, you really did seem to loose it there. I hope you don't fly airplanes when you're that angry!

Sorry that people who have the nerve to disagree with you and take an opposing view get you so worked up. I'm sure a little corn will make you feel better.

See ya when you get back.

Peace,
767jetz

 

[Junebug172]

Then what good is ALPA as a union?

And since when did this policy devolve into a guideline for pre-arbitration? If it is that trivial, why not remove it from the Constitution and ByLaws and make it a side letter of ALPA guideline policies. I think Prater really opened a can of worms with that one. And especially for any future mergers involving ALPA represented properties.

That has to be the biggest blunder I have ever seen!! I bet Behnke is rolling over in his grave about now. WOW!!

Later Prater.

ALPA has many benefits and there are many that will swear by them.

Anyway, the policy "devolved" in a guideline for pre-arbitration when your MC's only goal was to enter into arbitration from the very beginning.

Your MEC was cornered by its constituency to seek DOH and nothing less. This obligated them to direct your MC to seek DOH and nothing less. The MC knew perfectly well the DOH was not going move the negotiations anywhere and tried to move off of DOH with no luck. The MEC made sure of this with threats of recall and solidified their position with a resolution.

This did two things: it should the pilot group that the MEC was fighting hard for what they wanted and it also, and more importantly, would eventually make Nicolau the bad man, deflecting failure away from the MEC.

Nicely played for leaders with no spine.

So, the ALPA policy is there to guide MC's that are willing to NEGOTIATE. Your MC/MEC was unwilling to NEGOTIATE and elected, instead, to put your fate and the blame, onto Nicolau.

And AAA73pilot, I was wondering why you think CAL and FedEx came back into the fold?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

The West does not have to drop the Nicolau award because of the simple fact that they have the law on their side. ie: BINDING ARBITRATION

The East must "bother" to negotiate, because it is the EAST who refused to budge throughout the negotiating process, it is the East who is responsible for the outcome of the Nicolau award, it is the East who now wants a do-over. It's called personal responsibility, and it's time the East MEC stops playing the victim and starts taking ownership of the mess they created.

767jetz,

No, everybody is in this mess because of you pilots at UNITED AIRLINES. You guys changed the ALPA merger policy to suit yourselves. Now, after a few years and gaining SENIORITY you guys are actually quite worried and think the ALPA merger policy should be changed. Go ahead, suit yourselves. It's not going to be a AAA problem much longer.

Later,
Eye

 

[exB717Flyer]

No, everybody is in this mess because of you pilots at UNITED AIRLINES. You guys changed the ALPA merger policy to suit yourselves.

Actually, I believe it was UAL, NWA, and DAL that pushed for the change. In any case, the change occured in the early '90s and you knew about it going into arbitration so it's a little hard to listen to your complaining about it now. Notice how the AAA group is the only group today that has a problem with it?

 

[Bear96]

USA320Pilot comments: The East pilots will not waste their time because USAPA and their attorney's believe they can get the Nicolau Award vacated, a seniority list imposed on the West, and then a joint contract obtained. By negotiating with the West on a new list, which would prevent a DFR lawsuit, the list proposed by the East would become the new integrated award after voting was completed by the East and West per the new Constitution and By-laws according to Lee Seham.

Seham said all that, huh?

Got a link to something he actually wrote which states that (instead of something filtered or interpreted or paraphrased by you)?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I want to know if there is any East pilot here who would, if the situations were reversed and DOH had been the award, be advocating tossing the award. I know talk is cheap as compared to deeds, but I am still wanting to hear if any of you would be talking of tossing an award had you won.

hp_fa,

Quite frankly, an award this lopsided should shock everyone. You can go back through negotiations prior to Nicolau and see that there were MANY proposed protections for HP pilots and their bases. Everyone agreed it would be detrimental to have DOH and then have pilots transferring into PHX or LAS wreaking havoc - that was never going to happen as plenty of protections were on the table.

hp_fa, no, this is about more than just flying big planes and more money. This is about having the holidays off when you have 20-plus years of service with the company, this is about paying your dues and working towards having a good schedule so you can see your family, this is about keeping all you worked for and HAVING YEARS SERVED AT THE COMPANY MEAN SOMETHING!!! Try going up to someone on the street and explain to them how at pilot hired in 1989, who has served 14 full years with the company, could be ON THE STREET after a pilot hired in 2005, who has served just 2 full years at the company.

Our economy is not in good shape and things could turn very ugly very quickly if oil gets over $100 a barrel. There will be furloughs. It would be unconscionable to have someone with 14 years of service furloughed over someone with 2 years. You understand what I am saying here, don't you? This is about giving credit where credit is due. Imagine how you would feel being that employee hired in 1989 and having someone hired in 2005 stay while you were furloughed...again.

Simply put, for the last reason alone, US Airways East pilots should never negotiate a joint contract because of the Nicolau Award. In my opinion, they should stay separate and have separate contracts.

Just my two cents.

Later,
Eye

 

[AAA73Pilot]

ALPA has many benefits and there are many that will swear by them.

Anyway, the policy "devolved" in a guideline for pre-arbitration when your MC's only goal was to enter into arbitration from the very beginning.

Your MEC was cornered by its constituency to seek DOH and nothing less. This obligated them to direct your MC to seek DOH and nothing less. The MC knew perfectly well the DOH was not going move the negotiations anywhere and tried to move off of DOH with no luck. The MEC made sure of this with threats of recall and solidified their position with a resolution.

This did two things: it should the pilot group that the MEC was fighting hard for what they wanted and it also, and more importantly, would eventually make Nicolau the bad man, deflecting failure away from the MEC.

Nicely played for leaders with no spine.

So, the ALPA policy is there to guide MC's that are willing to NEGOTIATE. Your MC/MEC was unwilling to NEGOTIATE and elected, instead, to put your fate and the blame, onto Nicolau.

And AAA73pilot, I was wondering why you think CAL and FedEx came back into the fold?

The benefits are easily and economically replaced.

Careful there Junebug, I might begin to feel singled out and persecuted. As I should have said then, since when did the interpretation of merger policy for ALL ALPA members devolve into guidelines? News to me and I've been here for 20 years. Thats the lamest excuse yet to why we have this mess. Policy as guidelines? Why this interpretation now? And after the fact?

You know, since that is the first I have heard of this, it explains a lot about the spine of ALPA. I wonder what else in the Constitution and ByLaws are really interpreted as guidelines? In that case, what does ALPA stand for? I guess its a policy or a guideline to suit the particular situation.

As for the MC/MEC, thats pretty weak. Some say they were spineless and some say otherwise. So they were spineless for representing the wishes of the constituency? Yet you assume that everyone is up to date on the "guidelines", like me. I wonder if the constiuency would feel the same way if we knew they were only guidelines? Geez. One of my mergers it's policy and now one with guidelines.

Yea, we put our fate in the hands of an old man thinking there was a policy. Boy, that was a mistake!! Since the double secret interpretation of policy is really only for pre-arbitration. I ask again, what good is ALPA with a list of guidelines? Maybe a new union that acts like a union.

BTW. Check your pm. I sent it again.

Later Prater

 

[767jetz]

Try going up to someone on the street and explain to them how at pilot hired in 1989, who has served 14 full years with the company, could be ON THE STREET after a pilot hired in 2005, who has served just 2 full years at the company.

It would be unconscionable to have someone with 14 years of service furloughed over someone with 2 years.

This is where you guys really go off the reservation. It is clear you simply want to put someone who was furloughed at the pre-merger USAirways ahead of someone who was working and never furloughed at the pre-merger America West. Now THAT is unconscionable and immoral! Furloughed pilots have never been considered ahead of active pilots in any merger ever in history, nor should they.

The precarious situation of being at the bottom of the US list and being subject to furlough during an economic down turn after 14 years of service is obviously not an enviable place to be. But that was the reality of life at USAirways. If that is where your career choices put you and if you are not happy with that, then you should have moved on to brighter pastures. It should not be rectified at the expense of someone at AWA. Doing so would create a windfall of epic proportion.

When I was hired at TWA, I was at the bottom of the list of a twice bankrupt, financially troubled airline. I knew that if another BK occurred, or even an economic downturn for that matter, I would be subject to furlough. I was not happy with that situation. So I decided that staying at TWA would not be in my best interest. Had I stayed like many of my friends and not gone on to UA, I would currently be a furloughed American pilot. I had no expectation that my years of service and DOH would protect me outside of TWA. Neither did my friends now furloughed from American. Every one of them moved on to brighter pastures, and now will soon decide whether or not to return to American based on their tolerance of being at the bottom again. Everyone one else in this industry seems to understand this except the US East pilots. They are hell bent on their power (seniority) grab to correct decades of unfortunate career circumstances and decision on the backs of another group. Very sad.

 

[Pi brat]

Ok All thanks again. I am just as guilty of commenting off topic. Do we have anyone who wants to post an update on the CLT roadshow?

I spent about 2 hours at the rodshow in CLT. I will post what I took away from it soon, but I'm on a trip now and running late, imagine that! I will say that as an east pilot Prater redeemed himself a little.

 

[Pi brat]

When I said the conversation at the LGA meeting was contentious, you said I was misrepresenting information. But then Ardenian posted:

and you posted:
When I said that Capt. Prater didn’t have anything to say that your MEC liked, you said I was misrepresenting information. But then you said:
When I said that your MEC is trying to maintain control of the message that gets out to the line pilot, you said I was misrepresenting information. But then you posted:
You said Prater “new there was a problem.†What you are not understanding is, that doesn’t mean that he thinks the award is flawed. It only means he knows how rigidly you are holding on to your unreasonable DOH demand, and that since you didn’t get it you would be causing problems. Hence… ‘oh, oh… now we have a problem.†Get it??? The problem is with your MEC, not the award. He knows, and has said many times, that there are no grounds for the award to be vacated because it did follow merger policy.

You also said many other inaccurate things regarding pay parity, Doug Parker stepping in to rescue the East pilots, USAPA having enough cards to decert ALPA, and on and on and on. But at each turn you were told by others that these things would not happen, and now you have found yourself having to retract or modify your claims. You even have a letter from your attorney’s stating that your law suit has little chance of success, an DP refuting the inaccuracies of the quotes you attributed to him.
So, tell us all the truth, Cxxx. Who really is continuing to spread misinformation and misrepresentations???

Just to let you know he did say the award is flawed, but it followed ALPA merger policy. I also asked him about your "We have his ear "comment. He said he represents and answers to all ALPA pilots. More later.