lynyrdskynyrd
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- Apr 22, 2005
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Much like some east fas who have been giving west pilots the stink eye and worse. Most east fas have been nice and civil though, regardless of what they may think.
Prater Road Shows
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Much like some east fas who have been giving west pilots the stink eye and worse. Most east fas have been nice and civil though, regardless of what they may think.
OP
AAA73Pilot
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- Jul 18, 2007
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I am fully aware of the potential ramifications. Once USAPA is on board the rest can play itself out. You see, personally I don't care what ALPA is saying. If changing unions gives me St. Nic then so be it. If it doesn't, so much the better. At least ALPA is gone.
ClueByFour
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- Aug 20, 2002
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It strikes every outsider and certainly the AWA guys that your MEC/NC could have struck that bargain in mediation, but chose to take the DOH stance into arbitration. Why would the west guys benefit from giving the East another bite at the apple?
At the end of the day, that's what this is all about. And no amount of chest-thumping is going to change it.
The very best outcome is that the East lives under LOA 93 forever and does not get sued by the West MEC or the company. It gets worse from there.
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
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Lynard,
Lynard said: "Its not about a windfall, its about playing by the rules."
USA320Pilot comments: I agree, which is why the East pilots are outraged. George Nicolau provided an award that did not comply with ALPA Merger Policy.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Lynard said: "Its not about a windfall, its about playing by the rules."
USA320Pilot comments: I agree, which is why the East pilots are outraged. George Nicolau provided an award that did not comply with ALPA Merger Policy.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
lynyrdskynyrd
Veteran
- Apr 22, 2005
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Not voting for a combined TA is fine, thats your prerogative and also your right according to the process in place. Shoot, even decertifying is fair game. The Rice Committee is not legitimate.
I personally really don't care if you vote no to you're hearts content, likewise decertification of ALPA. Its the attempted circumvention of a legitimate process that bugs me.
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
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No it won't. That's equally as incorrect as your prior prognostications about how Nicolau would rule.
You guys are dreaming if you think that USAPA is going to get the DOH cramdown. Dreaming. And the West guys know it.
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
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US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman's Letter to Doug Parker
August 21, 2007
Mr. Doug Parker, CEO
US Airways, Inc.
1111 West Rio Salado Parkway
Tempe, AZ 85281
Dear Doug,
Last week, the US Airways MEC met in Washington, DC in order to address the pay discrimination caused by the two-tier B-scale wage system in place for the US Airways East pilots. As you know, the MEC passed a resolution that reassigns the East members of the JNC back to Negotiating Committee duties, and directs that they will no longer engage in joint contract negotiations until the US Airways pilots are provided longoverdue pay parity with the America West pilots. Furthermore, after September 1, 2007, any settlement with the US Airways pilots will include retro pay from that date, including an interest charge of 8% for monies due.
Shortly after our MEC passed this resolution, you quickly responded to our pilot group by telling them that the problem is not that you want to deny them pay parity, but that you will only grant it under a joint contract with the West. You also write that “the East MEC resolution correctly notes that some other contract employees have received pay parity, but in each case that came with a joint contract.†Our pilots are well aware, as are you, that the JNC process is not the only way to achieve equal pay. They have not
forgotten how many times our contract was opened on management’s behalf.
Let us lay it on the line. What joint contract do you think our pilots would ratify, since in doing so, it would lead to the implementation of the Nicolau Award? Doug, our pilots deserved equal pay years ago, yet this company prospers on the backs of the US Airways East pilots.
It is ironic to me, that in your communications to our pilots, you attempt to portray an image of neutrality with statements such as “not wanting to drive a wedge between the pilot groups.†In this industry, it is hard to imagine driving a bigger wedge than what you are currently doing by compensating differently the company’s pilots (who are represented by the same union and flying some of the same equipment) for two years now. The hypocrisy is astounding. Every day, our pilots continue to struggle financially under LOA 93. Meanwhile, you add to your millions and the rest of our airline enjoys profit sharing produced largely by the lowest pilot wages in the industry.
On another issue, the contract that you offered to the JNC on May 8, 2007 containing equal pay plus a three percent raise was a single joint contract. It was grossly inferior to industry-standard contracts, and in some ways, concessionary. Both East and West members of the JNC found the proposal insulting and not even close to recognizing the considerable contributions and sacrifices of our pilots. More importantly, your proposal would fully implement the Nicolau Award, which you already know is a non-starter.
There is also the cost issue of equal pay. Both the US Airways and the America West JNC members have told management that parity wages were a merger-related expense, a business decision—no different than the ill-fated proposal to purchase Delta Airlines. The US Airways pilots stood in amazement as you offered all the pilots the best of the three pilot contracts going into that deal. Yet, once that deal was squelched, you returned to your previous stance, again ignoring that the US Airways pilots were not being paid the same wages. At this point, as long as there is a pay disparity in the JNC three-party negotiating process, serious and fair negotiations cannot take place.
To paraphrase your own words, equal pay for equal work is the right thing to do, and you readily admit having the resources to do it. As if you don’t already have enough reasons to do the right thing, let me offer some to consider. Below is a list of “right things†that you have done for the pilots of AWA:
1. You made sure the West pilots were brought up to East standards as far as DC contributions are concerned. No longer do West pilots have to match 401(k) contributions to get a 10% plan.
2. The West pilots were able to participate in the profit sharing plan that was part of the East Collective Bargaining Agreement. The US Airways MEC also endorsed sharing our plan with the West.
3. Recall that the East had an agreement with US Airways to pay for mergerrelated expenses. The West did not. They asked for and subsequently received an amount in the area of $125,000 for their merger expenses. The East supported the AWA pilots in their endeavor. We, on the other hand, are still trying to recapture something you took away from us—Union Space Positive Travel and the ability to properly represent our pilots in our multi-domicile system. We enjoyed that right until you stole it with a stroke of the pen by unilaterally implementing your own policy. We are close to a settlement on the issue after many hours of work by the MEC leadership. We are now told that the AWA pilots will be given these same Union Space Positive Travel benefits, even though they never had them before.
4. Inclusion of the West pilots on the East IVR Jump Seat System.
5. Make no mistake, we would expect that you would honor the West CBA and provide them with their contractual 3% raise in January of 2007. But you have publicly acknowledged that without the merger with AAA, the AWA pilots would likely have ended up with pay cuts through the bankruptcy process.
You have stated that the merger with US Airways prevented all that.
We certainly have the right to demand different treatment from our management.
Unarguably, the course and destiny of America West and US Airways would be drastically different today if it were not for the difficult decisions made by the US Airways East pilots. While we could rightfully expect to be treated much differently for making truly heroic decisions, we simply ask that we be treated the same. You immediately leveled the playing field for your management team and others shortly after the merger in terms of compensation. You have had almost two years to do that for our pilots while the JNC process sputtered along at your pace. It wasn’t long ago in the JNC process when we offered to attend a two-week lockdown, in a neutral location, in order for us to hammer away at achieving a mutually acceptable CBA. You declined. The pilots’ patience has run out. To attempt to hide behind a flawed JNC process, and use your position of “neutrality†as the alibi, is nothing less than offensive.
In light of your August 16 letter, I ask that you again carefully read the MEC’s resolution.
If you are under the mistaken assumption that the MEC is running wild, I invite you into our crew rooms to speak personally to our pilots. You were once received warmly there, but I ask you to look each of our pilots in the eye now and see if the temperature of their reception has changed. Don’t take my word for it; ask them what they think of performing the same job for less money. Ask them how they feel about subsidizing profits for you and others by being on a B-Scale and being paid less than the West pilots.
Ask them how they feel about equal treatment, your offer to the pilots during the proposed Delta merger, and the so-called “level playing field†in which we work and negotiate.
Doug, it will be important for labor management relations that you reconsider your position on parity. You will find that our pilots are more than ready to take a stand to recapture what is rightfully theirs. We expect to be compensated accordingly and not one penny less than our brother and sister AWA pilots. Just like before, the survivability of this airline is at stake, and this time it will require your participation.
Sincerely,
Jack Stephan
US Airways MEC Chairman
August 21, 2007
Mr. Doug Parker, CEO
US Airways, Inc.
1111 West Rio Salado Parkway
Tempe, AZ 85281
Dear Doug,
Last week, the US Airways MEC met in Washington, DC in order to address the pay discrimination caused by the two-tier B-scale wage system in place for the US Airways East pilots. As you know, the MEC passed a resolution that reassigns the East members of the JNC back to Negotiating Committee duties, and directs that they will no longer engage in joint contract negotiations until the US Airways pilots are provided longoverdue pay parity with the America West pilots. Furthermore, after September 1, 2007, any settlement with the US Airways pilots will include retro pay from that date, including an interest charge of 8% for monies due.
Shortly after our MEC passed this resolution, you quickly responded to our pilot group by telling them that the problem is not that you want to deny them pay parity, but that you will only grant it under a joint contract with the West. You also write that “the East MEC resolution correctly notes that some other contract employees have received pay parity, but in each case that came with a joint contract.†Our pilots are well aware, as are you, that the JNC process is not the only way to achieve equal pay. They have not
forgotten how many times our contract was opened on management’s behalf.
Let us lay it on the line. What joint contract do you think our pilots would ratify, since in doing so, it would lead to the implementation of the Nicolau Award? Doug, our pilots deserved equal pay years ago, yet this company prospers on the backs of the US Airways East pilots.
It is ironic to me, that in your communications to our pilots, you attempt to portray an image of neutrality with statements such as “not wanting to drive a wedge between the pilot groups.†In this industry, it is hard to imagine driving a bigger wedge than what you are currently doing by compensating differently the company’s pilots (who are represented by the same union and flying some of the same equipment) for two years now. The hypocrisy is astounding. Every day, our pilots continue to struggle financially under LOA 93. Meanwhile, you add to your millions and the rest of our airline enjoys profit sharing produced largely by the lowest pilot wages in the industry.
On another issue, the contract that you offered to the JNC on May 8, 2007 containing equal pay plus a three percent raise was a single joint contract. It was grossly inferior to industry-standard contracts, and in some ways, concessionary. Both East and West members of the JNC found the proposal insulting and not even close to recognizing the considerable contributions and sacrifices of our pilots. More importantly, your proposal would fully implement the Nicolau Award, which you already know is a non-starter.
There is also the cost issue of equal pay. Both the US Airways and the America West JNC members have told management that parity wages were a merger-related expense, a business decision—no different than the ill-fated proposal to purchase Delta Airlines. The US Airways pilots stood in amazement as you offered all the pilots the best of the three pilot contracts going into that deal. Yet, once that deal was squelched, you returned to your previous stance, again ignoring that the US Airways pilots were not being paid the same wages. At this point, as long as there is a pay disparity in the JNC three-party negotiating process, serious and fair negotiations cannot take place.
To paraphrase your own words, equal pay for equal work is the right thing to do, and you readily admit having the resources to do it. As if you don’t already have enough reasons to do the right thing, let me offer some to consider. Below is a list of “right things†that you have done for the pilots of AWA:
1. You made sure the West pilots were brought up to East standards as far as DC contributions are concerned. No longer do West pilots have to match 401(k) contributions to get a 10% plan.
2. The West pilots were able to participate in the profit sharing plan that was part of the East Collective Bargaining Agreement. The US Airways MEC also endorsed sharing our plan with the West.
3. Recall that the East had an agreement with US Airways to pay for mergerrelated expenses. The West did not. They asked for and subsequently received an amount in the area of $125,000 for their merger expenses. The East supported the AWA pilots in their endeavor. We, on the other hand, are still trying to recapture something you took away from us—Union Space Positive Travel and the ability to properly represent our pilots in our multi-domicile system. We enjoyed that right until you stole it with a stroke of the pen by unilaterally implementing your own policy. We are close to a settlement on the issue after many hours of work by the MEC leadership. We are now told that the AWA pilots will be given these same Union Space Positive Travel benefits, even though they never had them before.
4. Inclusion of the West pilots on the East IVR Jump Seat System.
5. Make no mistake, we would expect that you would honor the West CBA and provide them with their contractual 3% raise in January of 2007. But you have publicly acknowledged that without the merger with AAA, the AWA pilots would likely have ended up with pay cuts through the bankruptcy process.
You have stated that the merger with US Airways prevented all that.
We certainly have the right to demand different treatment from our management.
Unarguably, the course and destiny of America West and US Airways would be drastically different today if it were not for the difficult decisions made by the US Airways East pilots. While we could rightfully expect to be treated much differently for making truly heroic decisions, we simply ask that we be treated the same. You immediately leveled the playing field for your management team and others shortly after the merger in terms of compensation. You have had almost two years to do that for our pilots while the JNC process sputtered along at your pace. It wasn’t long ago in the JNC process when we offered to attend a two-week lockdown, in a neutral location, in order for us to hammer away at achieving a mutually acceptable CBA. You declined. The pilots’ patience has run out. To attempt to hide behind a flawed JNC process, and use your position of “neutrality†as the alibi, is nothing less than offensive.
In light of your August 16 letter, I ask that you again carefully read the MEC’s resolution.
If you are under the mistaken assumption that the MEC is running wild, I invite you into our crew rooms to speak personally to our pilots. You were once received warmly there, but I ask you to look each of our pilots in the eye now and see if the temperature of their reception has changed. Don’t take my word for it; ask them what they think of performing the same job for less money. Ask them how they feel about subsidizing profits for you and others by being on a B-Scale and being paid less than the West pilots.
Ask them how they feel about equal treatment, your offer to the pilots during the proposed Delta merger, and the so-called “level playing field†in which we work and negotiate.
Doug, it will be important for labor management relations that you reconsider your position on parity. You will find that our pilots are more than ready to take a stand to recapture what is rightfully theirs. We expect to be compensated accordingly and not one penny less than our brother and sister AWA pilots. Just like before, the survivability of this airline is at stake, and this time it will require your participation.
Sincerely,
Jack Stephan
US Airways MEC Chairman
OP
AAA73Pilot
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- Jul 18, 2007
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- Thread Starter
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- #68
I feel slighted
Thanks. It's the right time in history with the right events falling in place. In the past US east was very fractured. North vs. South. East vs. West. Hardline vs. Concessions. Constant bickering. RC4. All under ALPA's supervision. Finally, Finally we have the events, the bungling and yes the west i.e. Doug and Scott to bring it all out and unite this pilot group. For the first time in my tenure here. It is a great sight to behold.
Here is a general and open question and not directed at AAA73Pilot Sorry, I guess I should not have butted in. My Bad
lynyrdskynyrd
Veteran
- Apr 22, 2005
- 1,182
- 558
He complied, just not to your liking. You just mixed an apple with an orange. By the way, its lynyrd, don't make the ghost of Ronnie Van Zant angry and he'll send Johnnie to sing for you. You wouldn't want that.
exB717Flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,106
- 599
Binding arbitration means binding, not "we don't agree with the arbitrator so we're going to do everything we can to nullify his decision." But then I'm sure you knew that.
As if not voting for a combined contract is not following the "rules".
What contract? The Easties have pulled out of negotiations! There's no contract. How about we negotiate one and see if it gets voted in or not? No harm in trying, right?
As far a extortion and delay...I am not sure what you are getting at.
Telling Prater to dump the binding arbitration decision or you're leaving ALPA = extortion.
I did just move up 30% in base on the last bid though.
Oh, goody for you. Am I supposed to feel bad? And what does that have to do with contract negotiations?
Oh, I see, you want us to accept Ole St. Nic's gift to you, so that we can never capture our attrition that we have patiently waited for for more years than most at pilots AWA have been employed.
Nicolau is somebody much wiser, more experienced, and unbiased than you, and he felt he ruled fairly. Funny how he wasn't "St. Nic" to you before you agreed to let him decide things. You can disagree with him but you can't say you know better than him.
The "rules" you talk of is to accept injustice.
That's your opinion and it's worth exactly as much as mine: zero. Nicolau heard your side's opinion and he ruled.
It was policy (the law and the "rules") in the Third Reich to kill certain ethnic groups.
And the Nuremburg trials punished them. Nicolau was our court and he ruled.
And BTW, I'm Jewish, and you're on real thin ice with the Nazi analogies. I strongly suggest you find another dowtrodden group to compare yourself to.
Dissent is an American right, especially in the face of injustice.
And in the American system when the court rules it's final. That's what the "binding" in binding arbitration means. You know darn well no judge will overturn Nic's decision.
E
EastUS
Guest
Wow!..You are a hapless "innocent". OJay's innocent after all
The only thing certain about courts...is that they're courts.You've offered, in general, far more reasonable tones here than your AWA contemporaries, and I'll appropriately note that the above reply, by way of coloration, is offered largely in jest. One never does know the outcome of litigation though.
One thing's yet a cerrtainty: As of today? = There are no AWA guys getting seats out east.
If such was actually set to be the AWA policy?...We'd have no fight between our groups.
PS: Don't get "Just Plain Stupid" with analogies = "And the Nuremburg trials punished them. Nicolau was our court and he ruled." When you compare Nic to Nuremberg/the loss of over 50 million lives over a few years..1939-45...you simply appear childish and utterly foolish...and again demonstrate the "thinking" clearly only brought about by a very, VERY "sheltered" life
FYI: There's always actual warfare, slaughter, and seriously "unpleasant" things going on in this earth of ours...AWA hasn't/won't ever take you there, but "trust me" on that
Our own troops die daily, and the "seniorty" debacle of some fat, spoiled airline pukes isn't a fart in a hurricane on any "moral" standards debate. I must note that the vast majority of the AWA never served in ANY capacity...just food for thought. But: Kindly spare us all any "wartime" analogies. No offence but: The bulk of you never wore more than,at best, a Cub Scout "Uniform" 
dariencc
Veteran
- Dec 4, 2006
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- 1,912
hp_fa
Veteran
- Feb 19, 2004
- 3,290
- 178
I feel slighted
It's the right time in history with the right events falling in place. In the past US east was very fractured. North vs. South. East vs. West. Hardline vs. Concessions. Constant bickering. RC4. All under ALPA's supervision. Finally, Finally we have the events, the bungling and yes the west i.e. Doug and Scott to bring it all out and unite this pilot group. For the first time in my tenure here. It is a great sight to behold.
Here is a general and open question and not directed at AAA73Pilot Sorry, I guess I should not have butted in. My Bad
No, you were fine. I should have phrased it "not exclusively directed at AAA737Pilot". Me bad.....
E
EastUS
Guest
Sheesh..kindly stick with the AFA issues then . It'd fairly clearly seem that you've not "read and learned" very much at all.
I'm the last human on earth to improperly stick my nose into AFA issues..so, as a test of "learning":
= Why isn't everything just all hunkey dory with the pilots groups?
Do enlighten us all..as we want to know. Perhaps you've some wisdom to offer that'd make things "right"?
I won't "Get started" on this, as my position's always been to defend/support "my" FA's...but you're way past outta' line here...unless you've actually something cogent to offer...like WHY the AWA has no sense of what "Seniority" actually means?
Your "union" got you DOH....and your "pilots" are up in angst about any such "fate" for them....please enlighten us all as to what's "right" here. Would you be at all interested in coaching your "pilots"..you know? = the ones still pinching their pimples, but yet ordering you around for coffe/the sake of their egos, as to just how your group adjusted?
hp_fa
Veteran
- Feb 19, 2004
- 3,290
- 178
Sheesh..kindly stick with the AFA issues then . It'd fairly clearly seem that you've not "read and learned" very much at all.
I'm the last human on earth to improperly stick my nose into AFA issues..so, as a test of "learning":
= Why isn't everything just all hunkey dory with the pilots groups?
Do enlighten us all..as we want to know. Perhaps you've some wisdom to offer that'd make things "right"?
I won't "Get started" on this, as my position's always been to defend/support "my" FA's...but you're way past outta' line here...unless you've actually something cogent to offer...like WHY the AWA has no sense of what "Seniority" actually means?
Well, whether the West AFA folks liked it or not, DOH was clearly spelled out in the AFA By-Laws and that is how it went. Granted that West folks didn't like it, but the degree of stink was mild compared to what has happened with ALPA folks.
My point is this. ALPA National simply creates a framework for it's Locals to work under. They allow great leeway in how the day-to-day Local business is transacted. It is the East MEC and, to some degree the East Locals, who have agreed LOA 93, the concessionary bankruptcy contracts with which you will be living with into the next decade and the integration mess that now exists. ALPA National had little, if any, part in any of the fundemental issues that were involved in any of those matters. Sure they may be a signatory to the contracts, but only after the East MEC and members had accepted the nuts and bolts of the issues.
If East had a problem with ALPA National to the extent that people now claim existed, why didn't they vote ALPA out before the merger or immediately after the merger. I suspect it is because they thought that they had a superior position to the AWA folks and were looking for a DOH win and then say, in essence, they followed ALPA policy and it sucks to be an AWA pilot.
For whatever reason, it appears that the East Locals and MEC led it's members down a path providing them little realistic information and, rather, told the folks what they thought the folks wanted to hear instead of what they really needed to hear. That fed exaggerated expectations that caused a massive problem when the negotiations and subsequent binding arbitration were completed.
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