Prater Road Shows

[john john]

Well, let's see...

If you count just UA, DL, NW, & CO, that's about 25,000 plus of the 57,000. I hope nobody thinks East's 3000 or so pilots is going to make such a big difference. They are more trouble than they are worth anyway.

all 25.000 are mainline

 

[prechilill]

I am neither misrepresenting information nor is my source inaccurate.

I was wondering when you would come on here to "shoot the messenger" as you always accuse others of.

My source happens to be me. I was there. I wanted to speak with my union president myself and deliver to him my own message as well as the sentiment of my fellow United pilots. Funny, I didn't see you there. In fact I believe you were typing away here on this web site during the LGA meeting.

I did have several long conversations with the ALPA reps that accompanied Prater, while the East pilots were hidden away with him in a private room. (As a side note, they were also there supporting the organization drive that Colgen Air was holding.) At one point they even called Prater by cell phone to see if he would break for lunch and attend to some required business. The "spirited" debate could be heard loud and clear in the background. They also offered to escort me down to the crew room, but I declined. Prater saw not the USAirway's pilot resolve, but only what the East MEC wanted him to see. Prater and his assistants were well aware of the "peer pressure" factor.

I did come away with some insight into the actual position of the EC (as opposed to the East tag line about the "west not complying with the Rice committee resolution" BS) and their opinion on the JNC and the East refusal to participate. I was also assured once again that captain Prater is keenly aware that the United pilots were pivotal in his election, and that we have his ear when we want it. They are walking a fine political line and must be sure they proceed in a way that does not put themselves in legal jeopardy (ie crossing the "t's" and dotting the "i's"), but their patience is not limitless and neither is that of the other 57,000 ALPA members.

Things will move forward sooner than you think... one way or the other.

Thank you, jetz, for the post.

 

[767jetz]

I am sure he would be happy for the 22 month Captains at CAL to go ahead of all your FO's at United and maybe some of your TED Captains, since CAL is higher pay. Plus CAL hasn't had the recent financial distress and went through CH 11, nor did they have to give up their pensions. That would sound about right according to "ALPA" merger policy.

Boy, you got me there!

For your information, One of the reps I spoke with yesterday was a CAL captain, and we actually did talk about the CO/UA rumors.

Their junior 737 captains are around 6 - 7 years, and would put them ahead of me and other UA pilots with more years of service... AS IT SHOULD BE! I do not have one moments hesitation or grief with that. There are many UA f/o's flying the 777 and 747 who have enough years to be a 737 captain, and would be right around the same seniority as those CO captains. So your assertion that the 22 month guy would go ahead of every UAL f/o is an exaggeration. Co's 10 year junior 767 captains would go ahead of most of our f/o's and many of our 320 captains with more years of service. Again no grief! AS IT SHOULD BE. That is what they would bring to the table and that is what they are entitled to. It is that simple.

Unlike you, I am not a hypocrite, and my integrity and belief system does not change with the wind to benefit my selfish agenda. Sorry to disappoint you, but you and I are NOT cut from the same cloth.

Peace,
767jetz B)

 

[767jetz]

all 25.000 are mainline

Give or take. It was a round ballpark number. But Yes, all are mainline.

These were my round numbers:
UAL 7600
DAL 7400
NWA 5000
CAL 5000

 

[autofixer]

Well, let's see...

If you count just UA, DL, NW, & CO, that's about 25,000 plus of the 57,000. I hope nobody thinks East's 3000 or so pilots is going to make such a big difference. They are more trouble than they are worth anyway.

How's that? Untill recently, U pilots have been solidly ALPA and have rolled over and took it promptly at ALPA's request. I think when U leaves ALPA, that will put the regionals in solid control of your pathetic association of greedy individuals. Enjoy.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Boy, you got me there!

There are many UA f/o's flying the 777 and 747 who have enough years to be a 737 captain, and would be right around the same seniority as those CO captains. So your assertion that the 22 month guy would go ahead of every UAL f/o is an exaggeration. Co's 10 year junior 767 captains would go ahead of most of our f/o's and many of our 320 captains with more years of service. Again no grief! AS IT SHOULD BE. That is what they would bring to the table and that is what they are entitled to. It is that simple.

Peace,
767jetz B)

You didn't mention the obvious major strength UAL pilots have in the form of their career expectations concerning widebody flying. I presume you glossed over that fact because (1) you're humble; (2) because UAL's vast career expectations with regard to widebody flying is self-evident; and (3) should you mention the obvious, then the peanut gallery would instantly come alive with their usual personal attacks. Allow me to spell it out. UAL's 767/777/747 fleet numbers 117. CAL has 20 777s and 26 767s (of which 10 are the old -200 clunkers). In any case, CAL's robust growth and apparent youth would be counterbalanced against the dramatic differences in widebody fleets. Both airlines bring very different prospects to a CAL/UAL merger. As long as each group is mindful of what it is they bring to the table and is reasonable in their expectations, then the process would be straight forward irrespective of whether it went to arbitration or not. The key is reasonableness. No process will ever function to its full potential if one side is consumed with carjacking it to achieve every one of their demands. If CAL pilots went in demanding unfettered access to UAL widebody cockpits, then that would certainly be unreasonable. Likewise, if UAL felt that their unique fleet should somehow trump the robust growth expectations of the CAL pilots, then that too would be unreasonable. I sincerely doubt, however, that the UAL/CAL process would be infected with the same sort of one-sided overdose of unreasonableness as is the case here. The truth is that ALPA would be much better off by just cutting the East pilots loose. They are a collection of B and C scale pilots, many of whom earn less than Mesa captains, who just flat out aren't worth the small loss in dues money. To any outside observer, it's obvious that USAPA would be about the shortest lived union in airline history as the AWA pilots would sue it out of existence. ALPA's return would be inevitable. The best outcome for all ALPA pilots is for the East to decertify and just go away. There's no reason for the other 55,000 dues paying pilots to have to deal with this crap any longer.

 

[Pi brat]

You didn't mention the obvious major strength UAL pilots have in the form their career expectations concerning widebody flying. I presume you glossed over that fact because (1) you're humble; (2) because UAL's vast career expectations with regard to widebody flying is self-evident; and (3) should you mention the obvious, then the peanut gallery would instantly come alive with their usual personal attacks. Allow me to spell it out. UAL's 767/777/747 fleet numbers 117. CAL has 20 777s and 26 767s (of which 10 are the old -200 clunkers). In any case, CAL's robust growth and apparent youth would be counterbalanced against the dramatic differences in widebody fleets. Both airlines bring very different prospects to a CAL/UAL merger. As long as each group is mindful of what it is they bring to the table and is reasonable in their expectations, then the process would be straight forward irrespective of whether it went to arbitration or not. The key is reasonableness. No process will ever function to its full potential if one side is consumed with carjacking it to achieve every one of their demands. If CAL pilots went in demanding unfettered access to UAL widebody cockpits, then that would certainly be unreasonable. Likewise, if UAL felt that their unique fleet should somehow trump the robust growth expectations of the CAL pilots, then that too would be unreasonable. I sincerely doubt, however, that the UAL/CAL process would be infected with the same sort of one-sided overdose of unreasonableness as is the case here. The truth is that ALPA would be much better off by just cutting the East pilots loose. They are a collection of B and C scale pilots, many of whom earn less than Mesa captains, who just flat out aren't worth the small loss in dues money. To any outside observer, it's obvious that USAPA would be about the shortest lived union in airline history as the AWA pilots would sue it out of existence. ALPA's return would be inevitable. The best outcome for all ALPA pilots is for the East to decertify and just go away. There's no reason for the other 55,000 dues paying pilots to have to deal with this crap any longer.

AWWW........

 

[Busdrvr]

If CAL pilots went in demanding unfettered access to UAL widebody cockpits, then that would certainly be unreasonable. Likewise, if UAL felt that their unique fleet should somehow trump the robust growth expectations of the CAL pilots, then that too would be unreasonable.

Actually, I would support giving them complete accesss to the WB's. Do it once and do it right, then move on. There are UAL guys who would want to move to Jersey, Houston or even (incredibly!) Cleveland! (we used to have a domicile there). A merger should allow all pilots to enjoy the benefit of more opportunities. I'd expect to be slotted and I'd expect that slotting to take into account the vast widebody fleets (a 400 FO gets roughly NB capt pay). Personally, I would not request or expect DOH.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I'd expect to be slotted and I'd expect that slotting to take into account the vast widebody fleets (a 400 FO gets roughly NB capt pay). Personally, I would not request or expect DOH.

That's a persuasive argument. Fortunately the mediation and arbitration process would allow the UAL pilots to sit down with the CAL pilots and hammer something out. There are numerous ways to make a merger work but one absolutely necessary prerequisite is reasonableness - reasonableness of the objective kind, not subjective.

Personally, I would not request or expect DOH.

Imagine the reaction of the CAL pilots if UAL marched into the arbitration demanding DOH or the highway. Worse yet, imagine the reactions of the impartial neutrals and the arbitrator. It's obvious as the day is long that the problem wasn't with the proccess this time but with a particular participant party.

 

[prechilill]

It is becoming more clear the vocal minority of the east leadership is losing control of the colony. The nail in the coffin will be the failure of USAPA.

 

[SkyRat]

It is becoming more clear the vocal minority of the east leadership is losing control of the colony. The nail in the coffin will be the failure of USAPA.

USAPA never really had a chance! Not with those Uneducated Radicals that apear to receive their advised by "Googling" terms... NEVER!

GL

 

[EastUS]

Well, let's see...
I hope nobody thinks East's 3000 or so pilots is going to make such a big difference. They are more trouble than they are worth anyway.

"Well, let's see..." It would seem that the ideal solution for Alpo would be to encourage us to leave that august body immediately then Perhaps you should, given that you're a self assigned UAL Crown Prince of Alpo, with your King Prater's ear "whenever you want" it, suggest exactly that. Suggested text? = "Oh great King P, forsake these rebelious ingrates for the good of Alpo. I prithee Sire; Go yee forth no longer groveling with them in personal appearances!!, and demeaning your vast and mighty empire"

767Jetz: "My source happens to be me. I was there." Then: "I understand it was contentious and the East MEC did not hear anything they liked or that would forward their agenda."

How is it that "I was there" but the best you can offer up is: ""I understand it was contentious". You'd be a fabulous witness in any courtroom proceeding: "Mr Jetz, the court understands that you were present, but that you don't really know anything about what happened?" "Isn't it true that you claim freindship with Mr Prater?" Isn't it true that you can have his ear anytime?" " How is it possible that you've no after action conversational details with him to reveal to the court?" Issues of hearsay notwithstanding.

767Jetx: "I hope nobody thinks East's 3000 or so pilots is going to make such a big difference."
Perhaps your claimed ready access to Prater's ear comes more truly in the form of serving as an Alpo Court Jester

What an utter crock.

PS Jetz: "They also offered to escort me down to the crew room, but I declined." Now, there's a huge surprise little boy What was the problem? Was there a posted warning to "Check your smarmy, lying BS at the door"?..or were you just concerned about seeing/hearing anything that would prove counterproductive to the maintaining of your set of personal fantasies? I am naturally surprised that Alpo would go forth without you..given that you feel yourself to be the spokesman for Alpo, at least on these boards

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Thanks to all for keeping the thread active. However, back on topic.... There have been 2 roadshows with Prater. Would really like to know what transpired. Thanks

 

[Ardenian]

Would really like to know what transpired. Thanks

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:09:49 -0400



Conversation: Prater Meeting

Subject: Prater Meeting



Dear Fellow Pilots:

Yesterday, August 20th, Don and I participated in the road show sponsored by

ALPA National.The entire day was spent at the LGA crew room after expressing

our objections to Capt Prater holding his meeting in the food court.

We feel that the meeting went well. We had many pilots show up and express

their concerns to Capt Prater. The questions were to the point, not toned

down and at times very emotional. We had Captains with 25+ years and pilots

who have just returned from furlough. The future of ALPA and the

disappointment with National's lack of ownership in dealing with the Nicolau

award were the main focus of discussions. It was very obvious that Capt

Prater and National as a whole are very concerned about the future of ALPA

on this property. Many of the pilots that showed for the meeting had USAPA

luggage tags and stickers clearly displayed on their ID badge.



The main points given to Capt Prater by our pilots in our opinion were the

following:



1. Provide Furlough Protection



2. Capture our own attrition



3. Career Protections



4. Have a comprehensive and detailed LOA/document that provides

protections for the above mentioned items which cannot be modified in the

event of a future transaction with another airline merger or consolidation

attempt by the company.



5. The moment the "LIST" is sent to the company, ALPA is history.



Capt Prater to his credit, did acknowledge as he has in the past, that there

is a huge problem with the list as it stands today and that he is hopeful

that a solution will be found in the near future. He asked our pilots to

allow the Rice Committee an opportunity to develop a plan that will resolve

the issues for all pilots East and West.

Capt Prater did appear to be genuinely concerned and at times would take

notes during the questioning. He stated that he was very aware, based the

outpouring of emails received, that the decertification efforts are alive

and well at US Airways. He again reiterated that he would not stop in his

efforts or his commitment to reach some sort of a settlement that was

acceptable to all parties. He knows we are angry, disappointed and all but

just about given up on ALPA. He knows the task will be hard but will not

give up in his efforts to find a solution.



The meeting concluded at 5pm. We would like to thank all of you who

participated in this event. Clearly, the emotions ran high as expected and

Capt Prater once again has witnessed first hand the resolve of this pilot

group. It is a message that will hopefully stay with him and find its way to

the rest of the National structure. We remain hopeful that justice will

prevail.

Fly safe, take care of your families, each other, and follow the three-prong

approach.





Fraternally,



Sergio and Don

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Thanks for the update.