Whether you agree with the "prevailing" opinion or not, the recalcitrance is certainly not in the minority. What the end effort of a unified East group to capture their own investment, attrition and expectation will be is certainly up for debate, but you certainly have no better answer on the final outcome than him or anyone else on the board, myself included. The only certain things are, the East pilots aren't going to hand their careers via the Nic award over, and there is almost entirely no trust in ALPA.
Prater Road Shows
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Whether you agree with the "prevailing" opinion or not, the recalcitrance is certainly not in the minority. What the end effort of a unified East group to capture their own investment, attrition and expectation will be is certainly up for debate, but you certainly have no better answer on the final outcome than him or anyone else on the board, myself included. The only certain things are, the East pilots aren't going to hand their careers via the Nic award over, and there is almost entirely no trust in ALPA.
lynyrdskynyrd
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- Apr 22, 2005
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You guys have shown your true colors, no thanks.
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
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Posted with permission from the author
Observations from the DCA Visit of John Prater and Ray Miller
I met John Prater and Ray Miller (Rice Committee) at 10:00 this morning at DCA. I spent about 2 hours with them. Only a handful of pilots - approximately 10 -stopped by while I was there.
It seems like John and Ray - both pretty good guys to talk to - were there more to talk than to listen. They continually tried to say how much better off we would be by staying with ALPA. This point often came up in situations where it was out of context with the conversation that was going on. When different pilots made comments about how ALPA had let other groups down or not lived up to expectations, J & R got pretty defensive and did their best to counter the charge. They mainly used historical references that none of us were familiar with (the National/Pan Am merger for example, as well as others) and that were almost completely irrelevant to anything going on in our situation. They consistently attempted to achieve what seemed like their main (and only?) goal of the meeting - defend ALPA at all costs, i.e., keep USA pilots in ALPA. In my opinion it was very easy to see through their flawed arguments. These gentlemen failed at defending the indefensible - not throwing out the Nicolau award.
One thing Prater said to me was that the first time he read the Nicolau award he "knew it was a problem". He repeated this thought to several other pilots that stopped by. I repeatedly asked him if he felt it was a "problem", than why is he not doing all he can to throw it out. He gave several answers. For example, he feels that he represents both sides, blah, blah, blah; the arbitrator - Nicolau - was selected by both sides and as a federal arbitrator, having his ruling overturned in court is a long shot at best; he feels the final solution will involve both groups and they should help resolve it. All these responses seemed to attempt to do only one thing - defend ALPA and deflect Prater's lack of action on a ruling he knows - and admitted - is flawed.
He repeatedly used the phrase "arbitrators can be very arbitrary". My only thought is - so what? That's why we have merger guidelines. I asked why he is letting this ruling stand when he admitted it was going to be a problem for Doug Parker. He admitted how it posed serious problems to get our side to ratify it. He gave numerous answers that I felt were him attempting to claim he basically felt his hands were tied. Pretty courageous, especially for what he's getting paid!
I reminded him several times that ALPA, as our negotiating agent, had the responsibility to see that the ruling fell well within ALPA merger guidelines. If they don't live up to this responsibility, they should be replaced. This always seemed to get a response from both guys. The response was almost always BS. Several of our pilots engaged the ALPA reps in heated conversation. I feel these were the most effective conversations that took place. I hope more "in your face" interaction takes place along the rest of their "visits".
If I read things correctly, those individuals who have pointed out Prater's concern over losing our annual dues of over $11 mil have hit the nail on the head. I believe he and the rest of ALPA needs to see our threat of leaving as real. I don't feel they have the means/desire/courage to rectify this wrong. I believe we need to make them realize the consequences of their not making this integration comply with the guidelines they are paid to uphold.
Sincerely,
XXXXX
Observations from the DCA Visit of John Prater and Ray Miller
I met John Prater and Ray Miller (Rice Committee) at 10:00 this morning at DCA. I spent about 2 hours with them. Only a handful of pilots - approximately 10 -stopped by while I was there.
It seems like John and Ray - both pretty good guys to talk to - were there more to talk than to listen. They continually tried to say how much better off we would be by staying with ALPA. This point often came up in situations where it was out of context with the conversation that was going on. When different pilots made comments about how ALPA had let other groups down or not lived up to expectations, J & R got pretty defensive and did their best to counter the charge. They mainly used historical references that none of us were familiar with (the National/Pan Am merger for example, as well as others) and that were almost completely irrelevant to anything going on in our situation. They consistently attempted to achieve what seemed like their main (and only?) goal of the meeting - defend ALPA at all costs, i.e., keep USA pilots in ALPA. In my opinion it was very easy to see through their flawed arguments. These gentlemen failed at defending the indefensible - not throwing out the Nicolau award.
One thing Prater said to me was that the first time he read the Nicolau award he "knew it was a problem". He repeated this thought to several other pilots that stopped by. I repeatedly asked him if he felt it was a "problem", than why is he not doing all he can to throw it out. He gave several answers. For example, he feels that he represents both sides, blah, blah, blah; the arbitrator - Nicolau - was selected by both sides and as a federal arbitrator, having his ruling overturned in court is a long shot at best; he feels the final solution will involve both groups and they should help resolve it. All these responses seemed to attempt to do only one thing - defend ALPA and deflect Prater's lack of action on a ruling he knows - and admitted - is flawed.
He repeatedly used the phrase "arbitrators can be very arbitrary". My only thought is - so what? That's why we have merger guidelines. I asked why he is letting this ruling stand when he admitted it was going to be a problem for Doug Parker. He admitted how it posed serious problems to get our side to ratify it. He gave numerous answers that I felt were him attempting to claim he basically felt his hands were tied. Pretty courageous, especially for what he's getting paid!
I reminded him several times that ALPA, as our negotiating agent, had the responsibility to see that the ruling fell well within ALPA merger guidelines. If they don't live up to this responsibility, they should be replaced. This always seemed to get a response from both guys. The response was almost always BS. Several of our pilots engaged the ALPA reps in heated conversation. I feel these were the most effective conversations that took place. I hope more "in your face" interaction takes place along the rest of their "visits".
If I read things correctly, those individuals who have pointed out Prater's concern over losing our annual dues of over $11 mil have hit the nail on the head. I believe he and the rest of ALPA needs to see our threat of leaving as real. I don't feel they have the means/desire/courage to rectify this wrong. I believe we need to make them realize the consequences of their not making this integration comply with the guidelines they are paid to uphold.
Sincerely,
XXXXX
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
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Lynyrdskynyrd,
Lynyrd said: "You guys have shown your true colors, no thanks."
USA320Pilot comments: That is fine because it is clear you want a "windfall", you want the East flying, and you're not happy keeping your pre-merger career expectation. Meanwhile, the East will have 208 vacant pilot positions for November and December alone after the bid results are announced later today. These will be for returning furloughees and new hires. What will the West get? Stagnation because of their hardline position.
However, what you need to understand is the position above will likely result in USAPA "imposition" with a new DOH list that has conditions and restrictions.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Lynyrd said: "You guys have shown your true colors, no thanks."
USA320Pilot comments: That is fine because it is clear you want a "windfall", you want the East flying, and you're not happy keeping your pre-merger career expectation. Meanwhile, the East will have 208 vacant pilot positions for November and December alone after the bid results are announced later today. These will be for returning furloughees and new hires. What will the West get? Stagnation because of their hardline position.
However, what you need to understand is the position above will likely result in USAPA "imposition" with a new DOH list that has conditions and restrictions.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
lynyrdskynyrd
Veteran
- Apr 22, 2005
- 1,182
- 558
Its not about a windfall, its about playing by the rules. Its apparant the chivalry so many easties showed us during the process was contingent upon getting doh and moving on, which coincidently I was prepared to do. I understand now that that was intended as a one way street however.
We were all fine with the rules before this started. The difference is I was prepared to move on if things had'nt gone the way I believed they should, many east folks are apparantly not. I have a hard time respecting that, in the abstract. There are no doubt many fine gentleman back east, and I don't mean to disrespect them, but thats the way I see it.
WOW!!!, someone that can actually see the FACTS.
Read those MC transcripts, see what your MEC instructed you MC to do, DOH and NO LESS! From day one for a period of 18 months.
EAST pilots, please get educated on the reasons why WE are all here. On why the Nic award came out the way it did, while you were being told that you could expect DOH.
Your MEC plans and tactics are a JOKE. Even my 9 year old knows what "binding" means, specially after he makes a deal or signs an agreement.
Take your anger to were it should be directed. To your leaders that have taken you thru this DARK path of self-destruction, before is too late. Before DP carves your PHL, CLT and other hubs and sells them to UAL or whomever.
Before the West MEC sues the East for non-compliance with the TA. It's CLEAR that your JNC is in violation of it. Even Management could sue the East for the same reason. In addition to DFR lawsuits, etc.
It's YOUR call, YOU need to tell YOUR leaders enough is enough!
GL
prechilill
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- Nov 28, 2002
- 2,544
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Yes, Mustang I have a solution. It is called abiding by the law and following the rules you yourself agreed to. These are the principles of a civil society, fyi.
autofixer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,804
- 241
This revisionist history is driving me nutty. The East's position is still posted on the ALPA board in DCA behind the glass:
1. DOH
2. Protect Widebody flying
3. Protect our Attrition
4. Avoid Windfalls *
I am not sure I have the order correct, but it was something like that. It was not just DOH as the Westies on these boards would have you believe.
* This is were fences would come into play as windfalls cuts both ways . The East never wanted the West seats, however, it is very, very clear the West wants and now is demanding our seats.
1. DOH
2. Protect Widebody flying
3. Protect our Attrition
4. Avoid Windfalls *
I am not sure I have the order correct, but it was something like that. It was not just DOH as the Westies on these boards would have you believe.
* This is were fences would come into play as windfalls cuts both ways . The East never wanted the West seats, however, it is very, very clear the West wants and now is demanding our seats.
exB717Flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,106
- 599
Oh, we understand 100%. We're just hoping you'll come to your senses and realize your extortion and delay tactics will not succeed. The only one thing I can guarantee unifies the Westies is our outrage at the East trying to end-run around the rules. (And your assertion that Nicolau didn't follow the rules is specious; he's the one both sides empowered to interpret ALPA Policy.)
OP
AAA73Pilot
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- Jul 18, 2007
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We are educated and growing larger daily. Our solution is USAPA. Why bother beating our heads with such bureaucratic nonsense. ALPA was, is and always will be the problem. We are telling our leaders enough is enough. Both national and local.
It is our call, and ALPA needs to know that for all of its bungling of past issues, It's now coming back to haunt its very existence on this property.
Now, back to the thread.
autofixer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,804
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What is with all of this talk about the "rules"? As if not voting for a combined contract is not following the "rules". As far a extortion and delay...I am not sure what you are getting at. I did just move up 30% in base on the last bid though. Oh, I see, you want us to accept Ole St. Nic's gift to you, so that we can never capture our attrition that we have patiently waited for for more years than most at pilots AWA have been employed. The "rules" you talk of is to accept injustice. It was policy (the law and the "rules") in the Third Reich to kill certain ethnic groups. Most Germans followed the rules, but was it right? NEVER! Dissent is an American right, especially in the face of injustice.
hp_fa
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- Feb 19, 2004
- 3,290
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Based on what I have read and learned it seems to me that ALPA itself hasn't been the problem, but rather the leaders that East folks have been electing to their Locals and MEC for awhile. IMO, ALPA National is just being used as a scapegoat.
Here is a general and open question and not directed at AAA73Pilot. If, as claimed, so many of you percieved ALPA as problem, why didn't you folks attempt to do something about that before the merger, the negotiations with the AWA pilots and/or the Arbitration?
aquagreen73s
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- Aug 22, 2005
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That is absolutely not true. What the above statement implies is that ALPA has the ability to vacate the award and nothing could be further from the truth. The issue of seniority integration was submitted to an arbitrator, subject to the Federal Arbitration Act. Nothing in the entire FAA gives a party the power to vacate. Rather, 9USC Sec. 10 limits the grounds of vacature and reserves the power to vacate to federal courts: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/usc...section_10.html
A valid agreement to arbitrate is irrevocable. 9USC Sec. 2. Hence, once submitting to the process of arbitration, all parties are bound to the arbitration process which includes the decision. ALPA is nothing more than a party to the agreement to arbitrate and therefore has no magical powers to accomplish what the East MEC loves to infer. ALPA has about as much power to vacate an arbitration award as does the East MEC - which is zero. What's dispicable is the fact that Prater stood there and hemmed and hawed without answering the question with a direct answer. The problem is that National and the East MEC are all too comfortable to lead on and lie to the East pilots.
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