Possible Restoration of Lost Wages for Flight Attendants

[Bob Owens]

Does Delta give their employees a 9.9% bonus(if your over 50) EVERY month for the next 5 years? I don't believe so. I'll take my 9.9% bonus over PS any day! Just a little something the APFA got for us!

Thats not a bonus, its your pension.
 
I lost half of what I would have received eight years from now. In the next eight years I would have accrued nearly as much as I accrued the first 28 years. 
 
Granted you guys did a lot better job than the TWU where we only got a 5.5% match (meaning I have to give up access to 5.5% of my pay now to get it) but you have to factor in that you lost your Defined Benefit pension. The senior workers over 50 lost the most because they were finally on the pension escallator where benefits accrue much more rapidly than they do for younger less senior workers. Laura did a good job recognizing the loss and having the agreement make up for some of it. NYer and his buddies didn't even come close with the TWU .
 
AA timed dumping the pension perfectly, they saved money by not having to actively fund a 401K from 2003 to 2012, got the Unions to support deferring payment to the DB plan back in 2006 (saving them even more money-a big chunk of NYers debt figure is from the pension obligations) then just as the average age (of mechanics) hit mid 50s and 20 years of seniority, they dumped it and went with a 401K match with zero company contribution, just a paltry 5.5% match. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Also. The ua/co language STAYS!!!!!!

Where is it? What page? 

 

[Bob Owens]

I guess diamondcutter didn't get that memo, claiming Nothing was taken out.

Maybe someone in the know can post what was given up to get the money back in.

Contract is on the APFA website. Doing a quick scan I don't see anything about adjusting the pay should the aggregate change. 

 

[WeAAsles]

So what exactly does that mean? Is the aggregate adjustment still in or not? If so good for them if not the happiness will be short lived. 
 
I agree with Black Magic, lets revisit this a couple of years down the road if the aggregate adjustment is not still in place. I did a quick scan of the contract and I didn't see it.

I don't think you'll need a couple of years to revisit this. They only just got their contract so it hasn't been fully written out yet for the members to dissect. I'm sure once that is done there will be a LOA explaining the details.

BTW Bob I'm curious if you or any of your members have done the "Industry Averaging" math yet for your group and what the figure is come next September? Just in case you get a JCBA that is not to your liking? 

 

[WeAAsles]

So what exactly does that mean? Is the aggregate adjustment still in or not? If so good for them if not the happiness will be short lived. 
 
I agree with Black Magic, lets revisit this a couple of years down the road if the aggregate adjustment is not still in place. I did a quick scan of the contract and I didn't see it.

Ok my mistake. Just woke up and am having my first coffee of the day. There it is under Section 5, A and B of the Negotiation Protocol Agreement. The adjustment is still in unless they disagree and then they take it back to the Arbitrator. No need though since the math is not that hard to figure out.

https://www.apfa.org/images/arbitration/AA-APFA-JCBA-Award-and-appdx.pdf

 

 

[CMH_GSE]

I don't think you'll need a couple of years to revisit this. They only just got their contract so it hasn't been fully written out yet for the members to dissect. I'm sure once that is done there will be a LOA explaining the details.

BTW Bob I'm curious if you or any of your members have done the "Industry Averaging" math yet for your group and what the figure is come next September? Just in case you get a JCBA that is not to your liking? 

 
 
I have to believe we will see a TA way before that comes into play, at this point, it would be difficult not to get something significantly better than that.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't think you'll need a couple of years to revisit this. They only just got their contract so it hasn't been fully written out yet for the members to dissect. I'm sure once that is done there will be a LOA explaining the details.

BTW Bob I'm curious if you or any of your members have done the "Industry Averaging" math yet for your group and what the figure is come next September? Just in case you get a JCBA that is not to your liking? 

The contract, dated December 13 , 2014,  is on their website.
 
The APFA did a much much better job than the TWU, no argument there. We tried to get the TWU to dump Donnelly, who is now management at SWA, and hire Akins, but of course they wouldn't. Said it was a conflict of interest even though that didnt stop them from hiring Donnelly.
 
Our Wage adjustment not only leaves out other major carriers that in the past were included for comparasions, and carriers that include us when they do comparisions but our formula is not an aggregate based formula, it only cherry picks what the company wanted to put in there. Even with pay ours omits GEO pay that UAL has(in Hawaii) and does not factor in that we have less sick time, less vacation, less Holidays, no double time, and at least a dozen other inferior terms even when compared to non-union Delta. That said the 4% increase that Little got in exchange for 6 years of profit sharing will lessen the gain we see with the mid term wage adjustment if UA/CO don't have a deal by then. It just goes to show how bad Littles deal was, we lost six years of Profit sharing for an 15 month advance on part of a raise we would have seen anyway. If UAL doesn't get a deal the increase wont be that much, even though our total compensation lags by at least $10K. Its sad, we have to hope that the Teamsters negotiate a good raise for us. UAL is no doubt crying about how AA was able to get their mechanics to such a substandard deal that there is no way they can maintain the difference. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Ok my mistake. Just woke up and am having my first coffee of the day. There it is under Section 5, A and B of the Negotiation Protocol Agreement. The adjustment is still in unless they disagree and then they take it back to the Arbitrator. No need though since the math is not that hard to figure out.

https://www.apfa.org/images/arbitration/AA-APFA-JCBA-Award-and-appdx.pdf

 

Negotiations are over, the contract is what rules now. Show me in the contract they agreed to to keep the aggregate based adjustment. . 

 

[WeAAsles]

Negotiations are over, the contract is what rules now. Show me in the contract they agreed to to keep the aggregate based adjustment. . 

Bob the Arbitrators award rules also or else we could just give all those TWA folks their seniority back right?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob the Arbitrators award rules also or else we could just give all those TWA folks their seniority back right?

Yes we could if we put it in the contract. 
 
Does Wallen still rule in NYC (maint)? No it does not, that too was an arbitrated award changed in negotiations. 
 
(I bet the expression on your face now is exactly like your avitar)

 

[WeAAsles]

The contract, dated December 13 , 2014,  is on their website.
 
The APFA did a much much better job than the TWU, no argument there. We tried to get the TWU to dump Donnelly, who is now management at SWA, and hire Akins, but of course they wouldn't. Said it was a conflict of interest even though that didnt stop them from hiring Donnelly.
 
Our Wage adjustment not only leaves out other major carriers that in the past were included for comparasions, and carriers that include us when they do comparisions but our formula is not an aggregate based formula, it only cherry picks what the company wanted to put in there. Even with pay ours omits GEO pay that UAL has(in Hawaii) and does not factor in that we have less sick time, less vacation, less Holidays, no double time, and at least a dozen other inferior terms even when compared to non-union Delta. That said the 4% increase that Little got in exchange for 6 years of profit sharing will lessen the gain we see with the mid term wage adjustment if UA/CO don't have a deal by then. It just goes to show how bad Littles deal was, we lost six years of Profit sharing for an 15 month advance on part of a raise we would have seen anyway. If UAL doesn't get a deal the increase wont be that much, even though our total compensation lags by at least $10K. Its sad, we have to hope that the Teamsters negotiate a good raise for us. UAL is no doubt crying about how AA was able to get their mechanics to such a substandard deal that there is no way they can maintain the difference. 

So do you have any "HOPE" that the people who will be negotiating for you now outside of that crappy BK venue will do a better job then those who had to negotiate with a gun to the head?

Peterson should be in there right? Do you think he may be the next one to sell you down the river?

 

[WeAAsles]

Yes we could if we put it in the contract. 
 
Does Wallen still rule in NYC (maint)? No it does not, that too was an arbitrated award changed in negotiations. 
 
(I bet the expression on your face now is exactly like your avitar)

Did the APFA or did they not just ask for clarification on that particular item and come back and say that it had to be upwards?

Is there any union that you still have any faith in to do a good job?

 

[Bob Owens]

So do you have any "HOPE" that the people who will be negotiating for you now outside of that crappy BK venue will do a better job then those who had to negotiate with a gun to the head?

Peterson should be in there right? Do you think he may be the next one to sell you down the river?

Wow, talk about changing the subject!  

 

[WeAAsles]

Wow, talk about changing the subject!  

No I'm compltely on subject. It just seems like your glass is always half empty? I'm asking you if you have any renewed faith that the people who will be negotiating for you in the JCBA talks will be able to get you back some of the things you want? Why is that a difficult question?

 

[Bob Owens]

Did the APFA or did they not just ask for clarification on that particular item and come back and say that it had to be upwards?

Is there any union that you still have any faith in to do a good job?

More dodging. So do you agree that language won in arbitration can be changed in negotiations? We had negotiated, ratified language changed with the stroke of Jim Littles pen-we lost profit sharing. 
 
Show me in the contract where there is an aggregate based wage adjustment. The NPA said if they don't reach an agreement there would be, but they did. Was the aggregate wage adjustment in the TA or Not? If so I don't see it in the contract agreement posted on their website. If such a letter came out afterwards then I would say they have it but I see nothing that leads me to believe its in the current agreement. I'll admit I can be wrong, but I'd like to see something.