planemech669
Member
Nothing you can do LD. You work FOR the company, you don't RUN it.
Pilot Furloughs
- Thread starter linevans60
- Start date
What can we do? Not much. As long as the AE pilots are willing to work for the compensation they agreed to in the '97 contract, AMR will naturally try and migrate as much of the flying to them as possible.
The problem is a lot of young guys are willing to work for poverty wages to get a start in this vocation. There's also a lot of guys that are willing to work for the LCC carriers for a lot lower compensation than traditional among the majors.
If I were a young guy in this vocation, I'd work on changing careers. There's no future in either being well-paid nor in job satisfaction as an airline pilot. The venier of this being "white collar" is being stripped away. Even AMR management wants to create this self-image for pilots by authorizing leather jackets as uniforms. Now we can look like office machine repairmen. It's called expectation management. Been going on for years at AE.
The problem is a lot of young guys are willing to work for poverty wages to get a start in this vocation. There's also a lot of guys that are willing to work for the LCC carriers for a lot lower compensation than traditional among the majors.
If I were a young guy in this vocation, I'd work on changing careers. There's no future in either being well-paid nor in job satisfaction as an airline pilot. The venier of this being "white collar" is being stripped away. Even AMR management wants to create this self-image for pilots by authorizing leather jackets as uniforms. Now we can look like office machine repairmen. It's called expectation management. Been going on for years at AE.
Winglet,Winglet said:
What makes you think that AE pilots want to work for our current wages. In '97 AE wages where above average for regionals. The IAI method was suppose to keep us above indusrty average and failed. The formula is neither being used correctly or been effective in doing what it was designed to do. In our upcoming amendment round compensation is the number one crewmember concern. We would all like to make mainline wages unfortunately economices dictates that that is not possible.
You are correct this is no longer a white collar job in america as it once was and still is in many places. City bus drivers make more than us it is very sad. So what do we do to fix the situation. Raise fares? Dissolve all regional flying? Fail to address change? Place our heads in the sand? Keep crying about it instead of fixing it?
The future will tell lets hope it benefits us all and reverses the downward spiral the career of being an Airline Pilot has entered.
I don't get it. If you don't want to work for the AE compensation, why are you there? Maybe out of desperation or simple necessity, like a lot of pilots? Well, in that case you're not going to be able to call the shots. If you can't walk away from an employer, then you're little more than an indentured servant, and the executive know it and are going to milk it for all it's worth.
What can you do? Well, you can refuse to work for 3rd rate compensation. As long as you show up to work with what you're making now, that's what they're going to pay you . . . . and maybe less if they can get away with it. The secret is that there is a whole host of pilots that will be happy (at least initially) to work for less than you make now, and the companies know that. I keep hearing regional pilots carping about they're compensation, but they don't do anything about it . . . . . like resign. To some well-publicized regional pilot groups, it's a lot easier to transfer the blame to other pilot groups "keeping them down." Well, that just doesn't flush. Mainline pilots didn't vote on regional contract acceptance. If you show up to work for $35 a flight hour and no retirement, then that's what you're worth. You "signed" your contract in 97 either by vote or by accepting a job at AE and the company has you by the short hairs until, I think 2013. It's got nothing to do with what's "right." It's got to do with what a some judge will say is the letter of contract law.
I know that harsh, but them's the facts. The hand-wringing and canabalism going at the U, UAL, and AA mainline unions is even worse.
Take heart, though, you can count on the senior pilots at the mainlines to sell out the bottom end flying in hopes of keeping their palaces for another year, so you can expect to be flying aircraft twice as large as you have now for a couple bucks an hour more . . . . but still no retirement.
What can you do? Well, you can refuse to work for 3rd rate compensation. As long as you show up to work with what you're making now, that's what they're going to pay you . . . . and maybe less if they can get away with it. The secret is that there is a whole host of pilots that will be happy (at least initially) to work for less than you make now, and the companies know that. I keep hearing regional pilots carping about they're compensation, but they don't do anything about it . . . . . like resign. To some well-publicized regional pilot groups, it's a lot easier to transfer the blame to other pilot groups "keeping them down." Well, that just doesn't flush. Mainline pilots didn't vote on regional contract acceptance. If you show up to work for $35 a flight hour and no retirement, then that's what you're worth. You "signed" your contract in 97 either by vote or by accepting a job at AE and the company has you by the short hairs until, I think 2013. It's got nothing to do with what's "right." It's got to do with what a some judge will say is the letter of contract law.
I know that harsh, but them's the facts. The hand-wringing and canabalism going at the U, UAL, and AA mainline unions is even worse.
Take heart, though, you can count on the senior pilots at the mainlines to sell out the bottom end flying in hopes of keeping their palaces for another year, so you can expect to be flying aircraft twice as large as you have now for a couple bucks an hour more . . . . but still no retirement.
History shows that you are correct most likely the top few will sell out the rest. So your answer to regional pay is quit. I enjoy flying and quiting while it sounds simple is not truly a solution. You are unhappy with your pay and and situation at AA so quit. Didn't think so. To expect mainline rates at the regionals is a bit unrealistic. Can things be improved? Yes.
Our 16 year contract is a disgrace, no arguments there but that is what we currently have to live with and it is not going to change overnight. We are doing what we can with in the constraints we have to work with to improve our contract. In '97 ALPA and the company used a few individuals and lots of lies to get a 16 year piece of junk ALPA national called the wave of the future contract passed. Unfortunatly it has proven to be much harder to do the damage than it was to cause it.
Our 16 year contract is a disgrace, no arguments there but that is what we currently have to live with and it is not going to change overnight. We are doing what we can with in the constraints we have to work with to improve our contract. In '97 ALPA and the company used a few individuals and lots of lies to get a 16 year piece of junk ALPA national called the wave of the future contract passed. Unfortunatly it has proven to be much harder to do the damage than it was to cause it.
twasilverbullet
Advanced
- Jan 25, 2004
- 206
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Who in their right mind would vote for a 16 year contract?
Just want to comment on the AA/FA's voting "NO". If it wasn't for the former TWA F/A's this wouldn't have happened. I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.
We may disagree on seniority (I'm a compAAny transfer) but I like your set of b*lls.
I did not wish to see you on the street during this seniority mess...unfortunately, I am one of your "replacements" at STL-LLC.
Please understand a "NO" vote would not have happened without TWA...it would've passed whole-heartedly and never been "sweetened".
I've talked with too many f/a's that had pilots "pressuring" them. Wonder why? I have to work under this crap, not you. Oh, you kept your "B" fund, fabulous.
So, SCOPE was waived...do you care that AA gate agents in LIT had to go to DFW P/T or give it all up...you probably didn't. You probably don't even know what the SCOPE waiver really means...overall...nor do you care...as long as it protects your A**.
Even more hilarious, I flew an American Connection RJ to RDU with the 1st TWA furlough as a F/A. She told us a story of walking through RDU and being told "make way for the REAL DEAL, little girl"...it was an EAGLE pilot fer cryin' out loud...couldn't an AA pilot /f/a make the same claim?
C'mon, this compAAny is going to do what it is going to do. WAKE UP!
Coop
We may disagree on seniority (I'm a compAAny transfer) but I like your set of b*lls.
I did not wish to see you on the street during this seniority mess...unfortunately, I am one of your "replacements" at STL-LLC.
Please understand a "NO" vote would not have happened without TWA...it would've passed whole-heartedly and never been "sweetened".
I've talked with too many f/a's that had pilots "pressuring" them. Wonder why? I have to work under this crap, not you. Oh, you kept your "B" fund, fabulous.
So, SCOPE was waived...do you care that AA gate agents in LIT had to go to DFW P/T or give it all up...you probably didn't. You probably don't even know what the SCOPE waiver really means...overall...nor do you care...as long as it protects your A**.
Even more hilarious, I flew an American Connection RJ to RDU with the 1st TWA furlough as a F/A. She told us a story of walking through RDU and being told "make way for the REAL DEAL, little girl"...it was an EAGLE pilot fer cryin' out loud...couldn't an AA pilot /f/a make the same claim?
C'mon, this compAAny is going to do what it is going to do. WAKE UP!
Coop
Before being furloughed, yes, you can say I was not happy with the pay cut. I voted against the "bum's rush" contract amendment as written as did 31% of the members. But, I was willing to work for the new scale . . . . which means that was what I was "worth" economically. However, I would not even consider a bid to a flowback slot to Eagle because I will not work for AE compensation (even as a captain), lousy work rules, and "insert your own adjetive" corporate culture. Flying isn't my life, it's only a job. When you stop looking at it like that, then your someone else's puppet.
So you don't expect mainline rates for working at Eagle? Then you will surely never get them. Why do I often hear regional pilots on the board claiming that they're just as skilled as mainline pilots and the only difference is the size of the aircraft? Well, I for one happen to agree with them. Airline flying is, for the most part, 2 hours of experience 1000 times over. There isn't much practical difference except in perhaps the experience and skill level of the young FOs. Do regional pilots sell themselves short. Absolutely. Again, and again, and again.
The companies (and especially the regionals) practice expectation management very skillfully. The new leather flight jackets at AA are an example of that, IMHO. It's meant to reinforce the image that pilots aren't really white collar caliber, but really just blue collar drivers. And there's plenty of pilots that will rush out and buy their new jacket thinking it's cool.
Bored with stating the obvious. I'm enjoying myself on furlough. Enjoy AE. Bye bye
So you don't expect mainline rates for working at Eagle? Then you will surely never get them. Why do I often hear regional pilots on the board claiming that they're just as skilled as mainline pilots and the only difference is the size of the aircraft? Well, I for one happen to agree with them. Airline flying is, for the most part, 2 hours of experience 1000 times over. There isn't much practical difference except in perhaps the experience and skill level of the young FOs. Do regional pilots sell themselves short. Absolutely. Again, and again, and again.
The companies (and especially the regionals) practice expectation management very skillfully. The new leather flight jackets at AA are an example of that, IMHO. It's meant to reinforce the image that pilots aren't really white collar caliber, but really just blue collar drivers. And there's plenty of pilots that will rush out and buy their new jacket thinking it's cool.
Bored with stating the obvious. I'm enjoying myself on furlough. Enjoy AE. Bye bye
jetdryvr,
The point was not her being ex-TWA but CHQ. They are pretty easy to spot given their ID's (American Connection) and crew tags (TSA/CHQ).
On a "merged" AA list, I can tell you who was Reno, TWA, or a company transfer based on employee numbers. They make it easy that way.
I don't begrudge AE their additional flying, the economy is what it is. Just realize what that means in the bigger picture and for your career aspirations.
LIT is a perfect example. STL-LIT was paying oversales on MD-80s from STL, now LIT is all RJ. AA agents/ramp trained replacement AE agents and had the option to go to DFW P/T or quit.
My belief is that AA is focusing on international flying to make money. As much domestic as possible will be turned over to AE to compete with LLCs now that much of SCOPE has been waived.
I also believe that the public may revolt because NO HUMAN BEING should spend more than 2 hours flying time in an RJ.
RJs are amazingly efficient but 2 hours MAX. I also have a 4 hour cap in a 757, no matter what cabin.
Coop
The point was not her being ex-TWA but CHQ. They are pretty easy to spot given their ID's (American Connection) and crew tags (TSA/CHQ).
On a "merged" AA list, I can tell you who was Reno, TWA, or a company transfer based on employee numbers. They make it easy that way.
I don't begrudge AE their additional flying, the economy is what it is. Just realize what that means in the bigger picture and for your career aspirations.
LIT is a perfect example. STL-LIT was paying oversales on MD-80s from STL, now LIT is all RJ. AA agents/ramp trained replacement AE agents and had the option to go to DFW P/T or quit.
My belief is that AA is focusing on international flying to make money. As much domestic as possible will be turned over to AE to compete with LLCs now that much of SCOPE has been waived.
I also believe that the public may revolt because NO HUMAN BEING should spend more than 2 hours flying time in an RJ.
RJs are amazingly efficient but 2 hours MAX. I also have a 4 hour cap in a 757, no matter what cabin.
Coop
I understand your comment now. She was American Connection. Well the commnet was probably meant for the whole crew. American Connection should be AA/AE flying not CHQ. Was the comment rude? yes but how many jobs has CHQ and TSA cost AA/AE employees? American Connection is an Alter EGO, a different product, and viewed as taking flying from AA/AE crews. Nothing against the employees for those two airlines as it is a function of managment. We are not the only ones with problems with CHQ. Add Comair, Skywest, USAir, Delta, and I am sure there are more. I noticed in your last TA you obtained a clause to prevent others from doing what you are doing to them kinda a funny. Hopefully we are successful in obtaining the same clause and can say goodbye to American Connection in time.
jetdryvr,
My point was that Eagle is making the comment to CHQ. AA could easily make the same comment to Eagle. It all truly does roll downhill at AMR.
It seems that you defend the comment with "it was probably directed at the entire crew (CHQ)" while bristling if it is AA vs. AE.
Regarding the F/A seniority issue, beliefs are valid on both sides (I'm tired of this dead, sun-blanched, and leathered-out horse) and it is up to the courts. I accept the decision. TWA has a pretty good argument and angle...now I know why my base chair doesn't return phone calls or have voicemail...LOL!
I disagree on seniority but I voted for a TWA F/A in the initial APFA elections because THEY DESERVE A VOICE.
Coop
My point was that Eagle is making the comment to CHQ. AA could easily make the same comment to Eagle. It all truly does roll downhill at AMR.
It seems that you defend the comment with "it was probably directed at the entire crew (CHQ)" while bristling if it is AA vs. AE.
Regarding the F/A seniority issue, beliefs are valid on both sides (I'm tired of this dead, sun-blanched, and leathered-out horse) and it is up to the courts. I accept the decision. TWA has a pretty good argument and angle...now I know why my base chair doesn't return phone calls or have voicemail...LOL!
I disagree on seniority but I voted for a TWA F/A in the initial APFA elections because THEY DESERVE A VOICE.
Coop
