Pilot Furloughs

[linevans60]

I understand there will be more pilot furloughs March 2. Is this true? With all the adding on fights that I read about, I am surprised they are letting pilots go. I wonder when AA will start bringing back their pilots. I thought that it costs a lot to retrain them.

 

[Winglet]

They're furloughing even more than predicted in March. 240, I think. Adding flights? Yea, they're replacing mainline flights with American Eagle RJs. AE has recalled all it's pilots (that wanted to come back, which was 9 out of 98), and is hiring again.

Bring back furloughees to AA? I don't think for a long time. AA has begun the transfer of as much AA flying to AE as possible, probably almost all of the F100 flying once those are gone.

 

[TWAnr]

Pilots furloughs have lagged behind lay offs of other employee work groups due to capacity limitations of equipment training and simulators. As pilots are let go, other pilots are bumped from equipment and seats and need to be trained to take over the duties of their former colleagues. These numbers have been projected for months.

 

[AA80Driver]

Pilots furloughs have lagged behind lay offs of other employee work groups due to capacity limitations of equipment training and simulators. As pilots are let go, other pilots are bumped from equipment and seats and need to be trained to take over the duties of their former colleagues. These numbers have been projected for months.

The reverse is also true. They will not be able to recall at the same rate as other employee groups.

Makes you wonder why management ever thought it was a good idea to have all those different fleet/sub-fleet types.

 

[iflyjetz]

The reverse is also true. They will not be able to recall at the same rate as other employee groups.

Makes you wonder why management ever thought it was a good idea to have all those different fleet/sub-fleet types.

AMR's got to have short courses for those pilots who have been out of an aircraft type for less than a stated time period. I don't know what UAL's training programs are like, but I think that the short course breakdown is 6, 12, and 24 months out of equipment. For each longer time period, the short course is a bit longer. After 24 mos, it's back to the full course.

 

[jetdryvr]

Winglet,

AE is not taking all your flying. Typical response from an out of touch pilot. APA has cost you your jobs, American Connection is costing you jobs (APA in their haste to make sure they stuck it to AE allowed the American Connection carriers to go with out any limitations including aircraft size), past inefficiencies the list goes on.

The previous poster is correct these furloughs have been planned for awhile and are not new ones. AA has furloughed fewer pilots than expected overall.

AE has recalled all pilots and your 9 out of 98 is correct for the last 98, we actually furloughd about 3 to 4 times that many. AE is not always a great place to work and I do not blame others for choosing not to come back. AA will also have guys not return and some are leaving on there own. We all look forward to brighter times and hope everyone that wants to come back gets a chance.

Do not blame AE for your problems. I amoung many are tired of hearing AA pilots whine. Ask some of your fellow pilots who have jobs at AE now what it is like at AE how hard we work, the quality of AE pilots and training, the same AMR treatmenat we all deal with. Talk to the AA F/A's who atleast stood up to the company.

The first finger you need to point is at yourself.

 

[Winglet]

First of all, my reference to AE pertains to the company and management, not to AE ALPA. If I wanted to specify AE pilots I would.

Secondly:

AE is not taking all your flying.

I didn't say that. But it is obvious that AA and indeed all the majors would like to transfer as much flying as possible to lower-compensation airlines like Eagle. And in many cases they are succeeding.

Don't ask me to defend the APA because I'm a critic . . . . but on the other hand, it seems to be popular for a few AE pilots to blame the APA not giving up the store to give AE pilots an instant (relative) bonanza in place of the sweetheart 16 year contract that their own union signed. In addition, AE ALPA has no cards to play. It doesn't have any say on what kind or quantity of aircraft management decides to fly. It was a mistake back in the 80s to allow eagle to exist at all, but now that it's here, don't expect an integration. It's just not in management's interest to combine the companies unless there were HUGE compensation concessions by mainline employees to make up for the very low compensation at AE . . . and all employee groups would have to acquiece and coordinate to make it happen. Not gonna happen. It's a dead issue.

The present fight at hand is to keep mainline from continuing to bleed jobs to low compensation Eagle with both outsourcing to CHQ and TSA, as well as 70-100 seat aircraft at AE. AE ALPA can't even stop outsourcing of it's own flying to CHQ and TSA. But, Eagle is growing. AA is shrinking. And the APA is losing the battle. That should make management and you happy jetdryvr.

 

[jetdryvr]

Winglet,


First I do not see anywhere in my post where it states anything about intergration, a better deal for AE pilots, or anything else. I understand scope my friend and fully support it. I seem to remember a pilot group saying they did not want to fly those little regional jets and that they where to good and much better than us lowley regional pilots. Now you want our renamed small jets, you want our flying ect.

Maybe not you, but until Main line pilots learn that we are equals in skill, abilities, and professionalism and work to find a co-exisistance that benifits all, the company will continue to play off the two and therefore benifit from our inability to work as a group.

There are routes that work best for RJ's and routes that work best for mainline equipment. If the overall goal is to make AA profitable again (AE already is and has been) then step up and make some constructive comments and suggestions.

In the long run I hope it all shakes out for what is best. AMR has many areas of management that need to change and philosophies that are outdated. If we worked together instead of against each other I bet we would accomplish more. We tried it once only to find out it was a rouse by APA to take all flying from AE.

So do a better job this next time. Never know you might find your self in Swiss Air's shoes.

 

[Winglet]

Maybe not you, but until Main line pilots learn that we are equals in skill, abilities, and professionalism and work to find a co-exisistance that benifits all, the company will continue to play off the two and therefore benifit from our inability to work as a group

I have NEVER heard ANY of my fellow pilots in any of the companies I've worked for utter a disparaging word, in public or private, about the skill, abilities, and/or professionalism of AE pilots. To my personal experience, that is urban myth and a product of a few persons unfounded inferiority complexes.

Wasn't around when the APA acquiesed on the creation of AE, so can't speak to that other than to say it was a mistake by those at the time.

We tried it once only to find out it was a rouse by APA to take all flying from AE.

So do a better job this next time.

QUOTE]First I do not see anywhere in my post where it states anything about intergration, a better deal for AE pilots, or anything else.[/QUOTE]

If you don't want seniority integration or better compensation for AE pilots, why talk with APA at all? What is it specifically that you want?

 

[jetdryvr]

I do not expect to be placed on your senority list. I do think their highering practices are slanted and bias but that has nothing to do with you as a line pilot.

I want to hear the whiners quit whining really both AA and AE ones. Most likely we all want the same thing out our job and company unfortunately we work somewhere that makes it very difficult but not impossible. The first step in finding a solution is going to be get the employee groups working together instead of looking out for themselves and playing into the ocmpanyies hands.

If you have not made any comments I thank you. There are many that seem to think we are two very different groups of individuals. History and tyhe future will show otherwise.

 

[Winglet]

The first step in finding a solution is going to be get the employee groups working together instead of looking out for themselves and playing into the ocmpanyies hands.

Given human nature what it is, a seemless unity of employee groups putting their own self interest on the back burner is probably not obtainable to the degree that I think you're envisioning. I'm not convinced it's necessarily playing into the company's hands.

I would still be interested to know exactly how you think ALPA and the APA could work together and to what specific outcome? There's really no point in working together unless there are specific objectives. Otherwise it's just an irrelevant group hug. Given the contracts that they are currently locked into and the large number of AA pilots on furlough, what specifically could the AE ALPA and the APA do to compel management to effect change. Also, to complicate the situation is the varying dates of contract expiration. If you could wave a magic wand and have the APA grant you three wishes, what would they be?

As far as hiring practices go, as you infer, AMR selects the candidates for interview and makes final selection, not the union. I asked once why there was a lower percentage of regional pilots than one would expect. The answer given was that the company experienced a higher percentage of training failures with pure-civ regional pilots. However, that said, given very low overall failure rate, that is a thing measured with a micrometer and not a yardstick . . . . and statistically, mostly irrelevant, IMHO. I think with the traditional mix, the failure rate was about 2%, which speaks pretty well to the selection process. I think the real reason is there isn't a problem with training with the traditional new-hire mix, and they see no reason to change it. The other part of that is money-wise, if they hire a AE captain, they drive three training cycles vice one.

 

[LD max]

The other part of that is money-wise, if they hire a AE captain, they drive three training cycles vice one.

I have heard this reason several times as well. The reality of it is...Eagle pilots lose hope of ever going to AA. They lose any loyalty to the company that might be instilled through hope and progression. The increasing trend at AE is once a newhire comes here and is here for a year or two, they see how difficult it is to succeed up through the ranks at AMR. Then they leave to go to other regionals, other nationals or majors. Just because AA will not hire AE does not mean most AE pilots will just surrender and stay at Eagle forever. Ask just about any line pilot at AE, who still has ambitions to move on, what major they want to work for and they will tell you SWA, DAL, UAL, CAL..not AA. Why concentrate your efforts to the least likely option?

In most any other career, a company rewards an emplyees hard work and loyalty with advancement. AMR would rather hire "outside" and keep AE at AE. This is severely demoralizing and frustrating.

The training costs 'could' actually decrease if the company would embrace AE pilots and give them a chance, when things are good to come to AA (flowthough/joke aside). For instance, in 2000 Eagle hired something like 725 pilots ...and had 710 leave that same year...with only a mere handful going to AA.

As far as fear of Eagle (regional) pilots flunking training at AA, this would be unfounded. Any FO or Captain who has been at Eagle for any length of time could hack it. Training at Eagle is demanding and there are 3 strikes. Either you hack it..or you're fired. The standards on the line are just as rigorous and we do the exact same job as AA. Why not hire a known quantity from inside the same company umbrella instead of an unknown, from outside. You have their training records and HI10's, etc. Hiring outside does not allow you to get as much of an insight to the psyche of an individual.

It's all a mute point anyway..It will obviously be an extremely long period of time before AA hires again.

 

[Mach85ER]

Amen LD,

Just another area where this company truly sux. I'll be watching for the good, but I don't see it coming.

Crew skeds have been nice and polite though lately.

 

[Winglet]

I don't disagree at all with what you're saying, just trying to provide some, albeit weak, rationale for what AMR thinking may be. Flow-thru was a joke, and I think "flow-back" was never considered to have any chance of actually happening, yet here we are today with AE growing, AA shrinking, mainline compensation the laughing stock of the majors, and flow-backs garnering the disdain of AE pilots.

With over 2000 mainline furloughs, even if a healthy percentage never come back to AA, it's going to be a very very long time before mainline hires again. By that time, AE will probably be domestic narrowbody mainline. The good news will be that congrats AE'ers, you made it to the big jets. The bad new is . . . . . it doesn't pay any more than you're getting now. I hope that comment is way over the top, but somehow I'm not sure.

 

[LD max]

Winglet.

I understand what you mean, exactly. The problem is..what to do about it?
I came to Eagle with strong ambitions to go to AA. That plan was totally obliterated around 2000 once I realized it was virtually impossible (and I am anything 'but' a quitter).
So now, we have growing regionals and I work for one that is expected to grow ever more. I am not happy about the prospect of Eagle flying more routes while AA shrinks since, long term, it means no retirement, poor benefits, working for "used car salesmen", poor pay and poor schedules. It is too bad that Eagle is on the other side of the fence instead of us all being together. However, Eagle folks will continue to try to better themselves by whatever means available. What else can we do?
There were many solutions over the years that were offered to APA to help solve it. Management had more patience. I am sure their long term plan even from the Crandall days, was to do what is happening now. ALPA begged APA to work with us. We were treated second rate and blown off. Then, once the unity thing 'was' tried, we go stabbed last year and a hostiel takeover of Eagle Captain jobs was attempted.
In the end management will never allow us to work together. Not so long as they work with current attitudes. It would take a "Herb Kelleher" mindset to affect true change and sense of teamwork. This company is run like an 1890 steel mill and will continue to be so run.
There was, in my opinion, slighty more of a chance of unifying things when times were good. Not now. It's a tough situation. Again...What to do??