Outsourcing at AA
- Thread starter Duke787
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Now, Bob, look at this only as an AMT, not as a unionist. You would really rather a CC be selected soley on seniority or senority plus a basic test? Maybe straight interview and management selection isn't quite the answer either, see Joe Sagginario, Bob Nygard, Joe Daly, Mike Mckanna, Dave Richards, Virginia Nieves, Andrea Ferrara, Glen Risbrook, Tim Ahern, Brian Troy, Ginny White, and much more of JFK manaement alone, but these are leadership positions which can't just be handed out to the most senior AMT.Bob Owens said:
DB pensions are (and have been) a pyramid scheme that require more workers coming in than going out to collect. No different than Amway, "investment club scams", or Madoff. In a diminishing workforce, which is where we are now, they are not sustainable. Going back over 15 years it has been obvious that the DB plans, and frankly Social Security, won't be there for us so anyone that has not been saving and investing for their own future either is a fool or has accepted that our parents were the last generation that will retire. My belief is that we will be working to the day we die, but I choose to save when I can and invest anyway so maybe I am fool too since I clearly chase the dream. In fact back in 2010 I seem to recall you saying yourself that the company would find a way to dumnp the pension either way as one of your reasons for being against the deal. Since you wisely knew this was coming why is a shock now? Haven't you been preparing for this inevitability?Bob Owens said:
As much I usually don't support unions or strikes, why didn't everyone, or even half of the M&R group, just quit then? OK, your right PFAA has the curent case law that in bankruptcy you can't strike so just quit in mass. As far as I know slavery is still illegal so you can quit. Who knows, maybe it would've turned out differnetly.Bob Owens said:
No Bob, it is not, what bankruptcy law does is put the only priority maximizing the repayment of debt. Nothing else matters, not me, not you, not the shareholders, not the unions, and not the retirees, only the creditors. As a matter of law once a company files chapter 11 everything ele becomes secondary to getting as much back to the creditors as possible. It doesn't matter if everyone of us were let go, if our pensions get frozen, dumped on the PBGC (though then they become a creditor), we take massive pay cuts, nothing, we DO NOT MATTER, only the creditors do. Like it or not this is what happened. I didn't realy want this merger and I still don't think it's a great idea, but guess what? Every last penny will be returned to the creditors and even the shareholders will likely get their value returned so whether I like it or not this was the right way for it to play out. The process worked as intended, did I get screwed? Maybe. Did you get screwed? Maybe. Did the creditors get everything back? Yes, and that is the ONLY thing that matters.Bob Owens said:
The sad reality, and you have said the same thing many times yourself, is that we could all leave tomorrow and do much better. As you have agreed with me, we saw this at NW in 2005. As we have both seen recently, people are packing it in every day for greener pastures. So why are we still here? Frankly many of us still suffer from Shiny Jet Syndrome, I know I do. I have said it many times, we didn't get into this business for the money, let's face it the money hasn't been here in decades if it ever was. We got into this crazy game becasue we liked aviation, becasue we suffer from Shiny Jet Syndrome. Again, I say it every day, I'm not here for the money, never have been, I could walk tomorrow and double my income just as I am sure you could. Why are you still here? I don't know, but I suspect you also suffer from Shiny Jet Syndrome, you just don't accept that you do.
CC were "never handed out to the most senior AMT", they always had a 6 month probationary period, seniority only gave them first shot at the job. Management never bothered to do what they had said they wanted to do which was incorporated into the contract. You will find that CCs are not primarily the most senior workers. There was no problem with the old process, the only problem we had with CC is that pay which has been a fixed number instead of a fixed percentage reduced the real pay to the point where it came out to less than a Paid Lunch for the day, so many qualified EXPERIENCED mechanics simply would not bother to bid for a position with limited selections and minimal financial gain. Many CC spots went to very junior employees, this change will not fix anything, it will simply cost them at least $1000 more to fill each crew chief position than it did before, and that's if only one person bids for it, add $300 to that figure for each additional bidder. Ironically the company put in language where if they have no volunteers to take the job guess who they force to take it? The most senior qualified guy. So on the one hand you say they cant just hand it to the most senior guy but they can force him to take it. How well does forcing someone to take a leadership position work?JAFA said:
Well I think I finally figured out what your alias means "Just Another F%$&!ng Ass#$!e". Why does management run to court and get injunctions when workers engage in a job action, why don't they simply fire everyone?
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
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Bob Owens said:
I didn't duck the issue. We have beat the issue you to death and we do not need to go over that I see it totally different then you. So I asked you what was your plan on how we will get a better deal going forward. I saw the letter of all the staff changes and those people you said were the problem aren't there. So lead us. Get us ready, are we marching on DC?
No more finger pointing going forward. What's the plan for labor's success?
Sure you did, and as usual I answered all your questions, maybe not to your liking but I asked you several questions and you completely avoided them.Overspeed said:
Specifically what demand from the company would you feel would be a strike issue? Yes or no will do.
1-outsource all overhaul
2-eliminate dues check off from payroll
3-eliminate A-5 passes for ATD
4-eliminate pension for ATD on Union leave of Absence based on salary reported by union instead of salary they would have earned in their position at AA like other forms of pensionable Leave
They already cut our pay way below industry standard and gave us the worst pension in the industry with the most expensive Medical, fewest Holidays, least amount of Vacation, worst OT rules, CC picked by the company etc etc so we already know those are not strike issues for you because you voted for all that, sure but all those issues are "cherry picking", somewhere in that contract you claim that there is real value that makes our deal industry leading in "total value", the 4 items above are pretty much the only things that we have that are left and in some cases unique to AA. feel free to add your own.
Were the pilots better off spending $45.5 million to show the company that they would not allow the company to violate their contract or would that money have been better spent the way Jim Little spent it, on salaries and cars for appointed Loyalists?
After you answer mine. This cant be all your way. Those days are over.Overspeed said:
Specifically what demand from the company would you feel would be a strike issue? Yes or no will do.
1-outsource all overhaul
2-eliminate dues check off from payroll
3-eliminate A-5 passes for ATD
4-eliminate pension for ATD on Union leave of Absence based on salary reported by union
They already cut our pay way below industry standard and gave us the worst pension in the industry with the most expensive Medical, fewest Holidays, least amount of Vacation, worst OT rules, CC picked by the company etc etc so we already know those are not strike issues for you because you voted for all that, sure but all those issues are "cherry picking", somewhere in that contract you claim that there is real value that makes our deal industry leading in "total value", the 4 items above are pretty much the only things that we have that are left and in some cases unique to AA. feel free to add your own.
Were the pilots better off spending $45.5 million to show the company that they would not allow the company to violate their contract or would that money have been better spent the way Jim Little spent it, on salaries and cars for appointed Loyalists?
Thomas Paine
Veteran
- Sep 4, 2003
- 583
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Now now, you know he wont answer that. He wont admit that there is no way he would ever vote for a strike against his beloved American Airlines regardless of what concessions were included.
1-well if he says yes then he has to answer for what he has said about AMFA at NWA who did strike over that, he said they screwed up by striking rather than agreeing to outsource all overhaul and lay off over half the workforce
2-he wont admit to that
3-he wont admit to that
4-he wont admit to that and finally he wont admit that he feels that $40 million is better spent on salaries and cars than paying fines for fighting for the members.
Why bother??
1-well if he says yes then he has to answer for what he has said about AMFA at NWA who did strike over that, he said they screwed up by striking rather than agreeing to outsource all overhaul and lay off over half the workforce
2-he wont admit to that
3-he wont admit to that
4-he wont admit to that and finally he wont admit that he feels that $40 million is better spent on salaries and cars than paying fines for fighting for the members.
Why bother??
Local 100, faced the same threat we did, give concessions or they will lay off workers. local 100 said no, the MTA laid off hundreds of workers, they all came back, No concessions. To this day Local 100 is the only Union that has not agreed to give up their Medical benefits. Local 100 is feared and respected because they proved that they will fight. the APA is respected as they have proven that they will fight. We are at the bottom of the industry with the lowest compensation in the industry, and even with the mid term wage adjustment we will remain the lowest once all compensation is factored in. Our diminished vacation accrual alone is the equivalent of an over 60 cent an hour pay cut, our Holidays come out to around around a paycut of $2.35 an hour. So once just those two concessions are factored in (nearly $3/hr) and subtracted from the mid term wage adjustment we will still be at the very bottom of the industry. The pilots were fined $45.5 million, which was fluffed away and never paid, but Jim Little spent millions on salaries and cars for Bobby "lower your expectations " Gless and Don "the price of fuel went up 2cents this week, that's another $300 billion out of their bottom line" Videtich.
You seem to forget that the Unions are creditors, in fact we are the only creditors who lost anything and the only creditors who are told that the court can abrogate (annul) our contracts, impose new terms and we are not free to act in our own best interests. Even the shareholders were spared. To say "Oh you are not a slave you can quit" is BS. That would be the same thing as saying that Exxon had to agree to whatever terms AA wanted and if the owners of Exxon didn't like it they could sell their shares and walk away. The fact is we are both creditors, both organizations that represent the collective interests of many people but only the creditors representing Labor can be forced to accept terms going forward that they did not agree to. If I quit that doesn't change the fact that the courts forced a deal on the Union just as if they did the same thing to Exxon the facts would not be changed if the shareholder sold his stock, in both cases the future property of the collective body, the rightful owners,was stolen for the benefit and use of the distressed company.JAFA said:
And you are wrong about the priorities of Bankruptcy C-11 is, it dumps debt, dumps past obligations, and allows the company to negotiate new terms based upon current market conditions going forward or allow the old creditors to discontinue doing business with the distressed company, it was not supposed to be a means of forcing unions to accept below market rates and stop strikes.
That has to do with the topic of this thread, what does your question have to do with the topic, oh I forgot, its all about you.Overspeed said:
Really? 1 and 2 yes, I would too, that's why I voted NO. You already voted to allow 1 so what gives? There is no cap on OH other than the 35% of Total maint spend, which get "adjusted accordingly" if the RR deal goes away. That would bring the spend up to 45% with no limits on where they send the work- at least United and some other Union carriers limited what could be outsourced overseas. with the MD80s gone and a mostly new fleet and the mid term wage adjustment they could probably outsource all the OH work we are equipped to do and stay within 45%.
It was brought up but I cant resist, didn't you blast NWA workers for going on strike instead of agreeing to outsource all overhaul and lay off more than half the workforce? What gives? Why is it a strike issue at AA but the NWA guys were fools to strike over the same thing? By 2018 Overhaul will be greatly diminished, total AMT headcount down to less than 6000 or around the same point or less as far as mechanics per airplane it was at NWA when the struck so why the different standards? Some of that reduction between now and 2018 will likely be through layoffs, hopefully most through attrition but our headcount will be much less than half of what it was in 2003, around half of what it was when they filed BK (not counting US) and we will still have less vacation-allowing AA to eliminate 1 more mechanic for every 50 than their peers, less holidays, Less sick time , no double-time, ah well you know the drill.
That leaves 2. So the collection of dues by the company is more important to you than a decent wage, a good pension, sick time , Holidays, vacation, health Benefits, work rules and job security. You would give up everything else but go on strike rather than stop paying dues through payroll deduction, that does not surprise me. As treasurer I know that would really suck as far as my job, but I'm sure we could easily work out automatic ACH transfers from our members checking accounts over time. In fact that would eliminate chasing down people who didn't pay due to CS's or NRSA charges.
Well you didn't answer the question how best to spend $40million but from your answer here pretty much tells us where your priorities are, "Give up anything as long as there is money to pay six figure salaries and provide cars for Jim Little's appointees."
My plan is simple, consolidate , educate and use modern technology to enhance basic proven methods to secure fairness at the bargaining table and the courtroom. Its not rocket science, simply update the things that worked in the past, inform and educate the members as to how things were won in the first place and they will realize its the same way to get them back. Not easy, not magic, not guaranteed but the other option is to keep giving back and allow the company to set wages and working conditions as they do in non-union places.
well that's it for me, had my fun, time to turn in, busy week ahead so don't feel like I abandoned you, probably wont be back till next weekend, if the weather is bad.
