Outsourced Work - TULSA

[Overspeed]

"It is understood that nothing in this Article requires the maintenance of the present volume of work."

And that is a valid statement and does not mean that AA can outsource anything they want. That means as AA transitions to lower maintenance aircraft like the 787 it will drive a lower "volume" of work if it replaces existing aircraft one for one. If the 787 uses 50% less MHs per aircraft to maintain compared to a 767 that means a lower volume of work. Therefore nothing requires AA to provided more work to backfill the volume of work that went away just because they bought a more reliable and lower maintenance aircraft.

 

[TWU informer]

And that is a valid statement and does not mean that AA can outsource anything they want. That means as AA transitions to lower maintenance aircraft like the 787 it will drive a lower "volume" of work if it replaces existing aircraft one for one. If the 787 uses 50% less MHs per aircraft to maintain compared to a 767 that means a lower volume of work. Therefore nothing requires AA to provided more work to backfill the volume of work that went away just because they bought a more reliable and lower maintenance aircraft.

This is another one of your false statements.

"Volume of Work" has not been defined. There is still ongoing TWU/AA debate over if this is based on manhours or maintenance budget.
To date not defined.

In fact I believe Steve Luis had a proposal on the negotiations table to clarify.

You sure have a strange belief system that is not based on fact, but more like on dreams and hope. Much like Rick Mullings always has, and who using those dreams received an unearned appointment to the TWU International.

 

[Bob Owens]

1) While the PEB makes recommendations that are not legally binding they are however made by people that are very well educated in the legal process as neither of us our not. I will go with their assessment as the APA lawyers did not press the issue and backed off the argument. Especially after the panel posed the response that the APA position could be applied to the APA as well.

Sure you will go with it, I would too, but that doesnt mean an arbitrator would. Are you insinuating that the lawyers for the APA were not very well educated in the legal process?

3) At UAL the AMFA added new "stronger" language that was going to stop further outsourcing. That did not stop UAL did it?

No , Bankruptcy did away with that, are you saying our language is BK proof? We gave up System Protection for hundreds of our members simply with the threat of BK.

4) Never said Southwest wasn't outsourcing. It just was expanded to include going down to El Salvador where all of us can agree does not pay AMFA Southwest wages. That is a labor cost offset that allows the four lines staffed by AMFA AMTs making $40 plus to have the remaining work done by sub $20 people most without licenses.

We can agree that we dont make SWA wages either, do you also agree that nothing prohibits AA from sending those 757s to El Salvador instead of TIMCO? Maybe they wanted to pay more to fluff up their Maintenance costs?

5) So TWU has the lead in concessions? What about the biggest concession of all? Increased and in some case unlimited outsourcing? TWU is definitely the worst union when it comes to allowing outsourcing.

The llist has been posted many times before. Airlines that went BK had to go for a second round to catch up to us. Some carriers that went BK get more vacation, more Holidays, more sick time and even higher hourly rates.

6) Never said AA couldn't do it cheaper when looking at the entire value that the in-house work labor work force can provide. You can get a higher wage for your members provided they produce higher quality (rated by a something other than you say so), fewer out of service than the other guy, much faster turn times, change only the parts that are required (no shotgun maintenance), fewer placards (more fuel saving items repaired faster), and reapir more instead of replace just to name a few.

We went that route, it didnt pay off.

8) Read the UPS/IBT clauses regarding line work overseas. The work that can be outsourced overseas on the line is based on the amount of flying time the aircraft spends flying overseas. If that were applied at AA think of the 767 and 777 fleet flying in South America, Asia, and Europe. 767 B Check in SCL? 777 B Check in PEK? Hmmm...don't think I want that deal.

The question is does the language mean an expansion of outsourcing or a reduction? Are they bringing more work in house or not? I've been told, and the company sold the deal as they were. Isnt it true that the language does limit what they can do overseas?

UPS has partner operators who fly UPS work in foreign countries, kind of like how AA has partner carriers who fly people who book on AA. We have no rights to work on those aircraft just as they have no rights to work on the aircraft of other operators even though UPS lists them as part of the Fleet serving UPS but if you take the UPS core fleet and divide it by the number of line mechanics they have and do the same with AA line and fleet numbers they are fairly close.

 

[Bob Owens]

Duplicate-delete

 

[TWU informer]

I do not buy into the idea that moving the job security date is anything close to adequate scope language.

All AA would have to do is more of what has been taking place.

As attrition removes headcount, claim there isn't enough manpower to get the job done so successful outsource more work.
AA has clamied they would have grounded aircraft if they had not outsourced four 757's, 11 CFM-56 Engines, and some landing gear work.
This plays well as a sympathy card to arbitrators.

The job security clause protects individuals jobs but not our work. And there is a difference.
Nobody has been laid-off due to the outsourced work so even though these cases have arisen, job security clause plays no part of the arguement to date.
But yet the rulings so far have not been favorable to the union. This is because of a huge hole is our scope clause that AA has begun to hammer on.

Of course union members refusing to accept 7 day coverage in Tulsa, and a host of other similar issues are not helping our cause any either.

 

[Overspeed]

Sure you will go with it, I would too, but that doesnt mean an arbitrator would. Are you insinuating that the lawyers for the APA were not very well educated in the legal process?



No , Bankruptcy did away with that, are you saying our language is BK proof? We gave up System Protection for hundreds of our members simply with the threat of BK.



We can agree that we dont make SWA wages either, do you also agree that nothing prohibits AA from sending those 757s to El Salvador instead of TIMCO? Maybe they wanted to pay more to fluff up their Maintenance costs?



The llist has been posted many times before. Airlines that went BK had to go for a second round to catch up to us. Some carriers that went BK get more vacation, more Holidays, more sick time and even higher hourly rates.



We went that route, it didnt pay off.




The question is does the language mean an expansion of outsourcing or a reduction? Are they bringing more work in house or not? I've been told, and the company sold the deal as they were. Isnt it true that the language does limit what they can do overseas?

UPS has partner operators who fly UPS work in foreign countries, kind of like how AA has partner carriers who fly people who book on AA. We have no rights to work on those aircraft just as they have no rights to work on the aircraft of other operators even though UPS lists them as part of the Fleet serving UPS but if you take the UPS core fleet and divide it by the number of line mechanics they have and do the same with AA line and fleet numbers they are fairly close.

1) Nope just that the APA got out-lawyered by the old school lawyers on the Committee. Having a "professional" doesn't ensure you get it your way or win your argument.

2) Not true. UAL started the ball rolling before BK, AMFA said they would see UAL management in BK court and got spanked. Maybe they should have tried a restructuring agreement outside of BK with the agreement that tossing the labor agreement in with the BK would not happen? Instead the judge did the restructuring so no pension, no retiree medical, and damn near unlimited outsourcing. Where did the benevolent BK judge go? As far as us giving up members, yeah we did but how much of that is due to parking all those ex-TWA fleet and reduced flying? Did you expect AA to keep the same headcount as they did in 2003 with 800 planes in 2011 with 600?

3) AA has not tried to send them to El Salvador but you could probably thank Arpey for not doing testing the waters. A 29(d) has been filed so AA may not have been right to outsource at all. Why argue over something that is in arbitration? "Fluff up their maintenance costs?" AA I heard is paying less for the TIMCO C Checks.

4) Airlines did not go back to catch up with us. They went back because fuel prices did not abate as they had planned. I remember UAL's original plan showed oil at $35/bbl in their projections. In fact UAL maintenance costs are higher than AA even with lower pay and unlimited outsourcing. They just have bad management (worse than ours) and they had to cut more pay to give them a cushion. None of the BK airlines have a pension and pay more for their benefits. They all have way more outsourcing. Using your logic of the wage rate means everything I could layoff all but everyone in DFW and ORD and outsource everything to Mexico and El Salvador at a much lower cost but as long as I paid the DFW and ORD guys $75 and hour with a full pension and 10 weeks of vacation the TWU would be industry leading. Sounds like you want to be a 1%'er.

5) You didn't go that route so how's that working for you? Find those secret AMR ledger books?

6) UPS ships boxes and without all those FAs and other passenger service people their overhead is different as well as the revenue they generate. Only thing the same between UPS and AA is that they fly planes. It will cost you $100 to ship 10lbs to across the country on UPS the same day. To fly a 200lb person on AA it would cost $360. If AA could make the standard price for same shipping of a person the same as a box you could probably get $50/hour.

 

[Birdman]

Using your rationale the TWU can get you that deal. Four lines for 600 aircraft and outsource the rest of airframe, almost all components, and all engines to get $10 an hour more for the remaining 600 to 700 Base AMTs. Arpey is waiting for that deal right now.

My rationale is just pointing out facts in regard to WN's operation, as their plan is to bring in more heavy maintenance and pay a premium in the process. If your claim that "our organized labor" provides "higher quality, lower cost, and faster turn times", why would Arpey be waiting for "that deal"?

 

[xUT]

2) Not true. UAL started the ball rolling before BK, AMFA said they would see UAL management in BK court and got spanked. Maybe they should have tried a restructuring agreement outside of BK with the agreement that tossing the labor agreement in with the BK would not happen? Instead the judge did the restructuring so no pension, no retiree medical, and damn near unlimited outsourcing. Where did the benevolent BK judge go? As far as us giving up members, yeah we did but how much of that is due to parking all those ex-TWA fleet and reduced flying? Did you expect AA to keep the same headcount as they did in 2003 with 800 planes in 2011 with 600?

Strange, last I looked, I am getting a retirement check and medical.

B) xUT

 

[700UW]

4) Airlines did not go back to catch up with us. They went back because fuel prices did not abate as they had planned. I remember UAL's original plan showed oil at $35/bbl in their projections. In fact UAL maintenance costs are higher than AA even with lower pay and unlimited outsourcing. They just have bad management (worse than ours) and they had to cut more pay to give them a cushion. None of the BK airlines have a pension and pay more for their benefits. They all have way more outsourcing. Using your logic of the wage rate means everything I could layoff all but everyone in DFW and ORD and outsource everything to Mexico and El Salvador at a much lower cost but as long as I paid the DFW and ORD guys $75 and hour with a full pension and 10 weeks of vacation the TWU would be industry leading. Sounds like you want to be a 1%'er.

US M&R have the IAM National Pension Plan.

 

[Kev3188]

... As do pre-merger Northwest employees...

 

[Birdman]

Strange, last I looked, I am getting a retirement check and medical.

B) xUT

It's ok, certain internAAtional representatives are only passing along the factless based information they're fed.

 

[Buck]

It's ok, certain internAAtional representatives are only passing along the factless based information they're fed.

It could be that International representitives have privilages than you do not.

 

[Overspeed]

Strange, last I looked, I am getting a retirement check and medical.

B) xUT

I stand corrected. The retiree medical coverage was altered and modified in BK. You have it but you pay alot more for retiree medical in contributions and copays. I guess that's a good deal.

IV. UNITED PROPOSES A QUINTESSENTIAL EQUITY – LINING UP THE MEDICAL BENEFITS OF CURRENT RETIREES WITH THOSE TO BE PROVIDED TO FUTURE RETIREES.

United proposes a uniform medical benefits plan under which current retirees will receive the same benefits package as future retirees, but with a sliding discount on premium contributions such that longer-retired plan participants will pay less than recently-retired participants.(4) (Grady Decl. (Ex. 4) ¶¶ 4, 27 - 29) AMFA, which represents 7,385 retired mechanics and related former employees (the largest retiree group with over 21 percent of United’s total current retirees), has already faced up to the realities of restructuring an airline in today’s industry environment, consenting to benefit modifications and the Company’s proposed common retiree medical plan. (Declaration of Marilyn Pearson (“Pearson Decl.”) (Ex. 6) ¶¶ 12 - 15; AMFA 1114 Agreement (Ex. 21)) United projects that its current proposal and the changes




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(4) In United’s proposal and in this Memorandum, “current retirees” refers to all retirees who retired before July 1, 2003, while “future retirees” refers to those who retire on or after July 1, 2003 and are covered by the reduced retiree medical benefits negotiated during the Section 1113 process.

Court approves termination of United Airlines pension plans http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/may2005/unit-m13.shtml

Because the PBGC took it over for the plans. Everything else is frozen.

 

[Overspeed]

My rationale is just pointing out facts in regard to WN's operation, as their plan is to bring in more heavy maintenance and pay a premium in the process. If your claim that "our organized labor" provides "higher quality, lower cost, and faster turn times", why would Arpey be waiting for "that deal"?

What organized labor can provide not does provide currently.

Arpey would want the Southwest deal if the in-house system can't produce. I am surprised our M&E management team doesn't realize that. If overhaul gets outsourced it isn't just the labor. It's the management and support as well. Don't need supervisors, clerks, GFs, MDs for shops that have been outsourced.

 

[strikeforce]

I have a hypothetical situation regarding Tulsa farm outs and system protection....

There's an attachment in Article 42.....Attachment 42.2 dated January 19, 1996 between Mark Burdette and John Orlando...where it states

1. A system protected employee can displace a non-protected employee at another station. A system protected employee CANNOT displace another system protected employee at another location.

If Tulsa begins to experience mass layoffs as a result of farm outs and all non-protected employees have been displaced, and applying No.1.....what choices will system protected employees in Tulsa have if they can't displace other system protected employees at other stations?????

Read it yesterday and with all this discussion regarding farm outs wanted to throw it out there.