Outsourced Work - TULSA

[TWU informer]

Scope will always be in management's favor. Believe it or not....there are things that management will never relinquish and scope is one of them. Look at the pilots....the pilots have leverage on scope and isn't scope the one item AA wants to change in order to be competitive???? Give up scope and jobs are gone!!!! It doesn't take a genious to figure that out. WE gave up scope many moons ago. The TWU system-wide arbitration case record has been horrible, and why is that????

So, next time WE get a T/A....never mind the geo pay, line pay, MRT pay, vacations, holidays......better read SCOPE because that is one article that means JOBS!!!!

You seem pretty good at waving the white flag and surrender.
Firt you say Scope will never change, then you say we better read SCOPE on next T/A.
Which is it? Will never change or could change?

 

[TWU informer]

You want "union leadership" to do what, Dave?? To whose dog? One cannot get "leadership" to do a damned thing unless one has available some "leadership" to begin with. Since said "leadership" does not exist, you're barking up an non-occupied tree.

Little Jimmy put in an appearance at the Wall Street pig-in - maybe they're paying him too ...

What do you suggest Frank?

 

[Frank Szabo]

What do you suggest Frank?

I have no suggestions - none that would be considered, anyway.

I'm of the opinion the company couldn't manage itself, union or not, one or one thousand aircraft, maintenance or not. To many side deals between management and the twu and a nasty interdependence nobody cares to speak about sinking a huge corporation, the "management" of which hasn't two 'nads to rub together in a pair of boxers.

A bankruptcy filing may well be the only way out - the workers still get hosed but the so-called "management" gets a taste, also.

 

[strikeforce]

OK, let's just stay divided, and complain.

I enough seniority to make it to retirement age. Do you?

I'VE GOT MINE BROTHER

I don't believe you will ever be an aid to my plight regardless of cards signed or not, or any other manipulation tool you can find to use.
Every issue doesn't need to be a tool for you to bang the AMP drum or complain about the weak union.

I see very little in your opinions or postings that reflect a specific idea on what needs to be done.
Here we have the single issue that both line and overhaul could champion together, and all you can do is drive the division wedge a little farther.
Good Luck with that strategy, I have been there and done that.

No. I'm sick of being divided.

WE have 11,000 members within M&E and most are pretty intelligent, but the ME factor and side deals has overtaken common sense thinking and keeping the labor organization accountable for their actions. Why the union leadership feels 17 local presidents and a handful of goofs at the INTL know better than 11,000 people is absolutely astonishing to the point where it's been detrimental to the membership best interests, and the membership just sits there and takes this non-sense.

You want solutions....no problem brother.

1. Demand that the INTL change the constitution where the membership has the ability to recall INTL officers at a whims notice.
2. Membership needs to approve all INTL officer salaries.
3. Election of all INTL officers.....no appointments! period.
4. Membership participation as observers at all Presidents council meetings and negotiations! period!
5. TWU forum for membership with password protection. No alias's and solution based. Membership participation and engagement.
6. E-mail tree to forward all information.
7. Membership approves union Arbitration panel member.
8. Tie INTL salaries to membership compensation.
9. Tie dues collection to length of negotiations. Gives union incentive to get a T/A.
10. Negotiating committee required to present full text T/A at local membership meetings prior to Presidents Council voting on whether T/A moves forward for system-wide vote. The membership approves or rejects T/A prior to presidents vote. President doesn't vote on their beliefs.


Membership engagement and participation is key. We have smart people out there...why not use them. They don't have to be elected officers to participate in negotiations.....It's in everyone's best interest that ALL participate!!

 

[TWU informer]

No. I'm sick of being divided.

WE have 11,000 members within M&E and most are pretty intelligent, but the ME factor and side deals has overtaken common sense thinking and keeping the labor organization accountable for their actions. Why the union leadership feels 17 local presidents and a handful of goofs at the INTL know better than 11,000 people is absolutely astonishing to the point where it's been detrimental to the membership best interests, and the membership just sits there and takes this non-sense.

You want solutions....no problem brother.

1. Demand that the INTL change the constitution where the membership has the ability to recall INTL officers at a whims notice.
2. Membership needs to approve all INTL officer salaries.
3. Election of all INTL officers.....no appointments! period.
4. Membership participation as observers at all Presidents council meetings and negotiations! period!
5. TWU forum for membership with password protection. No alias's and solution based. Membership participation and engagement.
6. E-mail tree to forward all information.
7. Membership approves union Arbitration panel member.
8. Tie INTL salaries to membership compensation.
9. Tie dues collection to length of negotiations. Gives union incentive to get a T/A.
10. Negotiating committee required to present full text T/A at local membership meetings prior to Presidents Council voting on whether T/A moves forward for system-wide vote. The membership approves or rejects T/A prior to presidents vote. President doesn't vote on their beliefs.


Membership engagement and participation is key. We have smart people out there...why not use them. They don't have to be elected officers to participate in negotiations.....It's in everyone's best interest that ALL participate!!

Very Good Start

 

[Buck]

Curious, what were your positions when change was attempted under the AMFA drive(s)?

 

[TWU informer]

Curious, what were your positions when change was attempted under the AMFA drive(s)?

Curious, what does that have to do with outsourced work, scope clause, and negotiations?
The absence of TeAAM Twu responses here speaks volumes. No need to hijack every thread with an off topic question.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ Informer, If you had to choose, what would it be, if it came down to either farming out the 757 overhaul , and, or, further work to Temco, or reopen MCIE? ------- And yes, I know this is vary unlikely!----- Just curious! And, what the TWU isn't telling you is, I heard that there is talk of farming out 737 work to Temco also!

 

[TWU informer]

<_< ------ Informer, If you had to choose, what would it be, if it came down to either farming out the 757 overhaul , and, or, further work to Temco, or reopen MCIE? ------- And yes, I know this is vary unlikely!----- Just curious! And, what the TWU isn't telling you is I heard that there is, talk of farming out 737 work to Temco also!

Well that's a no brainer for me. Reopen MCIE
It is interesting that AA went from over capacity to outsourcing work.

I think the scope language has always been weak and that is why we have witnessed company unionism for years.

Now, since negotiations are not capitulating to every company desire, the punishment is outsource of work.

I look for more company tools to be used until they get what they desire. hard to play hardball with a gun to your head.

 

[strikeforce]

Curious, what does that have to do with outsourced work, scope clause, and negotiations?
The absence of TeAAM Twu responses here speaks volumes. No need to hijack every thread with an off topic question.

Isn't it absolutely amazing that Team TWU lovers haven't ripped the 10 point plan. Maybe because it makes sense and every point includes the participation of the membership.....something the TWU won't allow because WE will uncover the scams within the INTL leadership. Go figure!!

 

[Buck]

Curious, what does that have to do with outsourced work, scope clause, and negotiations?
The absence of TeAAM Twu responses here speaks volumes. No need to hijack every thread with an off topic question.

I was not hijacking your thread, I was wondering who was defending the positions of the TWU when they were committing similar infractions in the past. I know what you were doing. It appears that you are looking for a solution to issues of today that were happening during the AMFA drives. It has everything to do with the thread as you were trying to solve the same issues then as you are now, as am I, and possibly more.

 

[strikeforce]

I was not hijacking your thread, I was wondering who was defending the positions of the TWU when they wore committing similar infractions in the past. I know what you were doing. It appears that you are looking for a solution to issues of today that were happening during the AMFA drives. It has everything to do with the thread as you were trying to solve the same issues then as you are now, as am I, and possibly more.

It's going to be a monumental task to impliment my 10 point plan.....it's much easier to sign those little green cards and show the TWU the door. It would be in TUL best interest to rid yourself of this cancer. You will continue to lose work because these arbitration cases have shown that all it takes for AA to farm out the work is to make a phone call to the INTL and goodbye jobs! These arbitration cases should serve as notice of the handwriting on the wall that TUL's days are numbered......unless YOU take action against the company and union. The union leadership is sitting in the corner watching as YOU get beat to a pulp by the company. When will TUL say enough is enough, and finally say good riddence???

 

[TWU informer]

I was not hijacking your thread, I was wondering who was defending the positions of the TWU when they were committing similar infractions in the past. I know what you were doing. It appears that you are looking for a solution to issues of today that were happening during the AMFA drives. It has everything to do with the thread as you were trying to solve the same issues then as you are now, as am I, and possibly more.

Ok Buck, my apologies then.
Your 13 word question failed to convey any connection.

 

[Bob Owens]

You want solutions....no problem brother.

1. Demand that the INTL change the constitution where the membership has the ability to recall INTL officers at a whims notice.

1. Local 562 submitted a resolution to add recall of International Officers at the last Convention. It was never even permitted to be discussed on the floor as the International bundled all the Resolutions they did not want into one motion for rejection. We submitted several Resolutions but concentrated on Electronic ballotting, where all votes would be recorded and the membership could see the results and how their representatives voted. I only recall seeing Locals 501, 567, 565, 562 and 564 from the ATD suport this.

2. Membership needs to approve all INTL officer salaries.
3. Election of all INTL officers.....no appointments! period.

3.All officers are elected, the rest are employees. We proposed that the Division Directors (appointed) are elected by representatives from that division.

4. Membership participation as observers at all Presidents council meetings and negotiations! period!
5. TWU forum for membership with password protection. No alias's and solution based. Membership participation and engagement.

5. Local 562 has had that for around two years, its on the website.

6. E-mail tree to forward all information.

6. Local 562 has had that for nearly three years.

7. Membership approves union Arbitration panel member.
8. Tie INTL salaries to membership compensation.

8. It is, but the formula only takes into account increases, not decreases.

9. Tie dues collection to length of negotiations. Gives union incentive to get a T/A.

9. Sure fire way to get even more concessionary agreements. A COLA or language like we proposed for Article 47 would be more effective at gaining timely agreements.

10. Negotiating committee required to present full text T/A at local membership meetings prior to Presidents Council voting on whether T/A moves forward for system-wide vote. The membership approves or rejects T/A prior to presidents vote. President doesn't vote on their beliefs.

10. So you want to vote on being able to vote on a TA? I agree with getting full text and I think that Full text should mean "Full Text" and no language in there that says that the details will be worked out later.

Getting back on Topic. Back in 2001 we were trying to get a more detailed Scope clause (modeled on the Pilots contracts) put in place. At the time Art Luby spoke about how System Protection was about the best we would likely ever get. As long as they have to keep the workers they have to keep the work. The shortcoming of this strategy is that the protection erodes through attrition. I believe we now have around 2000 Title I without system protection and that number grows daily, thats probably the biggest threat to Tulsa, not a handful of 757s sent to Timco, because its a number that will continue to grow unless we move the date up in Negotiations.

I'm not so sure that the TIMCO move is AA testing the waters, I think its more AA spending as much money as they can. With a lot of optional work such as cabin upgrades still being performed in Tulsa and OT at the max its clear that management is spending like money is not a problem. Later, down the road, they will cite how their maintenance costs(due to doing everything at once) are skyrocketing and try to use that to get concessions. IIRC the company has sent work out before, to Delta. From what I hear Delta is pretty much in the same boat as AA, they have more of their own work than they can handle as well.

 

[strikeforce]

1. Local 562 submitted a resolution to add recall of International Officers at the last Convention. It was never even permitted to be discussed on the floor as the International bundled all the Resolutions they did not want into one motion for rejection. We submitted several Resolutions but concentrated on Electronic ballotting, where all votes would be recorded and the membership could see the results and how their representatives voted. I only recall seeing Locals 501, 567, 565, 562 and 564 from the ATD suport this.


3.All officers are elected, the rest are employees. We proposed that the Division Directors (appointed) are elected by representatives from that division.



5. Local 562 has had that for around two years, its on the website.



6. Local 562 has had that for nearly three years.



8. It is, but the formula only takes into account increases, not decreases.



9. Sure fire way to get even more concessionary agreements. A COLA or language like we proposed for Article 47 would be more effective at gaining timely agreements.



10. So you want to vote on being able to vote on a TA? I agree with getting full text and I think that Full text should mean "Full Text" and no language in there that says that the details will be worked out later.

Getting back on Topic. Back in 2001 we were trying to get a more detailed Scope clause (modeled on the Pilots contracts) put in place. At the time Art Luby spoke about how System Protection was about the best we would likely ever get. As long as they have to keep the workers they have to keep the work. The shortcoming of this strategy is that the protection erodes through attrition. I believe we now have around 2000 Title I without system protection and that number grows daily, thats probably the biggest threat to Tulsa, not a handful of 757s sent to Timco, because its a number that will continue to grow unless we move the date up in Negotiations.

I'm not so sure that the TIMCO move is AA testing the waters, I think its more AA spending as much money as they can. With a lot of optional work such as cabin upgrades still being performed in Tulsa and OT at the max its clear that management is spending like money is not a problem. Later, down the road, they will cite how their maintenance costs(due to doing everything at once) are skyrocketing and try to use that to get concessions. IIRC the company has sent work out before, to Delta. From what I hear Delta is pretty much in the same boat as AA, they have more of their own work than they can handle as well.

Rebuttle on No. 3......the INTL maybe elected but not by membership vote. Let the membership vote on ALL officer positions and salaries. With high tech available there's no reason why the TWU can't hold elections online, password protected. The TWU needs to get up to speed with today's technology.

Rebuttle on No.8.......change the formula to include both.

Rebuttle on No.9......your proposal in Article 47 was based on the company dragging it's feet. How about the union?? With all the other points tied together there is a checks and balances to where the union negotiators or INTL just can't bring something back just to save on dues. check the next rebuttle and you'll see why.

Rebuttle on No.10.....didn't say vote within a vote....I said let the membership decide whether their negotiator did a good enough job at the table. Basically, the local president's vote is based on memberships acceptance or rejection after review of the full text T/A. That's right Bob let your membership provide you the vote. If they like the terms, you vote yes, if they don't, you vote no. what's wrong with that proposition. And, after the President's Coucil votes on the T/A for a system wide vote, the company will get a pretty idea on whether the T/A will pass based on that premise.