Nwa On Strike

[Vortilon]

Garfield,

Wheather or not you believe it, your wages and benefits are at the very least - loosly tied to what the union members make at AA. I didn't become an AMT to join a union, nor does being a union member make me a mindless lemming. It just so happens to come along with the job, and it's in our best interest to attempt to use it to work for our benefit. That is just common sense - use the tools you have. There is no I in team! Scabs are shooting themselves in the foot for their own shorsightedness.
Their chickens will come home to roost, as what comes around goes around.

 

[Ifly2]

The word "corporation" comes from the term "incorporate". Incorporate means to become a legal entity (artificial person) with the accompaniing rights and responsibilities. Trans World Airlines Inc. (incorporated) filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection (for the third time) and then converted to a Chapter 7 liquidation in which most (not all) of the assets were sold to a totally new company called "TWA Airlines llc" (limited liability corporation), a subsidiary of American Airlines Inc. After this happened, Trans World Airlines Inc. became a shell corporation that was no longer engaged in operating scheduled airline service. Hence, IT WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. You are the one who needs to get your facts straight.

[post="292009"][/post]​

aafsc,

Technically correct, almost.

And not quite the picture you present when you repeat your claim that TWA went out of business. TWA no more went out of business than did Western, Ozark, (every single one of who's contract employees was integrated according to thier DOH, btw), Air Cal, Northeast, Capitol, PSA, Piedmont, etc. They are not here anymore, sadly perhaps, but they did not "go out of business". They were absorbed in mergers after being acquired by larger carriers. Just like TWA.

"My company" was TWA the airline, and the airline was operating, or, "in business", when AA made an offer to buy it. It was not bankrupt. The bankruptcy filing was a condition of AA's offer, which enabled AA to take only the parts they wanted, and leave the rest. TWA accepted that offer and subsequently filed Ch. 11, in accordance with the agreement. AA took what they wanted, and left the shell, (TWA Inc., it's debts and unwanted obligations, and 20 something subsidiaries) to be liquidated.

Pretty smart, huh?

The airline continued to operate thru the actual closing date, and was eventually merged into AA. The airline never went out of business. It was, like many many others, absorbed by a larger airline through an acquisition and subsequent merger.

The "your company was out of business" line is nothing more than a weak, but convenient, rationalization for treating the TWA employees as less than equals. You know it, we know it, and we all know that you know it.

'nite

 

[aafsc]

aafsc,

Technically correct, almost.

And not quite the picture you present when you repeat your claim that TWA went out of business. TWA no more went out of business than did Western, Ozark, (every single one of who's contract employees was integrated according to thier DOH, btw), Air Cal, Northeast, Capitol, PSA, Piedmont, etc. They are not here anymore, sadly perhaps, but they did not "go out of business". They were absorbed in mergers after being acquired by larger carriers. Just like TWA.

"My company" was TWA the airline, and the airline was operating, or, "in business", when AA made an offer to buy it. It was not bankrupt. The bankruptcy filing was a condition of AA's offer, which enabled AA to take only the parts they wanted, and leave the rest. TWA accepted that offer and subsequently filed Ch. 11, in accordance with the agreement. AA took what they wanted, and left the shell, (TWA Inc., it's debts and unwanted obligations, and 20 something subsidiaries) to be liquidated.

Pretty smart, huh?

The airline continued to operate thru the actual closing date, and was eventually merged into AA. The airline never went out of business. It was, like many many others, absorbed by a larger airline through an acquisition and subsequent merger.

The "your company was out of business" line is nothing more than a weak, but convenient, rationalization for treating the TWA employees as less than equals. You know it, we know it, and we all know that you know it.

'nite

[post="292249"][/post]​

The very fact in and of itself that you lost your seniority in court is proof that this transaction was different from Piedmont, Ozark, etc. In Carty's testimony before congress, he said that they considered buying TWA as a whole (it's stock) but that the Icahn deal made TWA very unattractive. Yes, Icahn was one big reason for BK along with higher fuel (then), high leases, $100 million debt coming due, and a slow winter season. TWA was pretty much finished, look how quick they burned through the DIP. And even if by some miracle they had lived, $50-$68 a barrel would have definately killed them; it very well could kill DL, NW, or anyone else still here. Icahn basically strangled TWA. Why should AAers have been made to pay the ultimate price for what Icahn did to TWA? It would have been unfair and immoral for TWAers to have been able to replace AAers in their own airline. We are obviously never going to agree on this. Good nite.

 

[Hopeful]

Prior to 9/11 AMR was the best in terms of financial condition and cash on hand. Money was no object. Financially, TWA was no where near the financial shape AA was. Look what happened to the industry! DAL, also in great financial health. Most legacies were doing ok. I doubt very much TWA would have survived on its own.

So if TWA was in such great shape, there was no way in hell they needed to file bankruptcy even as a condition of purchase. If they were in such good financial health, it would have been quite difficult to file for CH 11.

 

[Ifly2]

Prior to 9/11 AMR was the best in terms of financial condition and cash on hand. Money was no object. Financially, TWA was no where near the financial shape AA was. Look what happened to the industry! DAL, also in great financial health. Most legacies were doing ok. I doubt very much TWA would have survived on its own.

So if TWA was in such great shape, there was no way in hell they needed to file bankruptcy even as a condition of purchase. If they were in such good financial health, it would have been quite difficult to file for CH 11.

[post="292294"][/post]​

Hopeful,

I never said TWA was in "such good financial shape". Obviously it wasn't. It also was not "out of business", as the popular rationalization presented above by aafsc claims.

The rest is nothing more than speculation, and will always be. There were others that were also not in great shape at the time that are now doing fairly well. (AirTran) Some that are just sort of getting along, (AWA) as well as some that didn't make it. I wouldn't even try to predict which way TW would have gone, but I can see plausible scenarios leading to any of those three outcomes.

FWIW, I am truly not bitter about the seniority. I accepted very early on that it would turn out much as it did. Given the chance, the unionized workers at AA will staple their new co-workers, or as near to it as they can convince the arbitrator to award, putting peers with decades of service behind new hires who haven't even received their ID cards yet. So come right out and say it, and quit hiding behind all the lame rationalizations.

The attitude of SOME of the AA employees is another story. Some still have delusions of somehow being "better" than the TWA people, and that we should be grateful to them, personally, and it is time to get over that.

To bring this back to the topic, given the obviously rightful attitude of support for the NWA folks, what happened to the idea that "charity begins at home". Really?

 

[j7915]

Prior to 9/11 AMR was the best in terms of financial condition and cash on hand. Money was no object. Financially, TWA was no where near the financial shape AA was. Look what happened to the industry! DAL, also in great financial health. Most legacies were doing ok. I doubt very much TWA would have survived on its own.

So if TWA was in such great shape, there was no way in hell they needed to file bankruptcy even as a condition of purchase. If they were in such good financial health, it would have been quite difficult to file for CH 11.

[post="292294"][/post]​

The TWA chapter ii, was a way to get rid of Carl Icahn and his Karabu contract with TWA. I don't see How Carty, a protege of Crandall, would have let Icahn nose into AMR's tent.

 

[MCI transplant]

The TWA chapter ii, was a way to get rid of Carl Icahn and his Karabu contract with TWA. I don't see How Carty, a protege of Crandall, would have let Icahn nose into AMR's tent.

[post="292375"][/post]​

<_< That's correct! TWA was delibratly taken into BK to get reed of Ichan!!! aafsc thinks he's got it figured out, but he don't! He's put his own spin on it so often, he now believes it! He didn't live through it like former TWA employees did, and frankly really doesn't know what was going on at the time, and just prior to the time TWA when into Chapt.11 for the last time! I'll bet he didn't know the TWA Unions were talking to Boeing about a major investment into TWA, and senting up an "Factory MRO" here at MCI overheal Base!!! The MRO operation would have been totally seperate from the flying end of business so Ichan couldn't get his hands on that money! But they wanted to dump Compton, and the Board of Directors to do it!!! Compton got wind of it and excelerted negotiations with Carty!!!If TWA could have done this, and flown tell 2003, Ichan would have been out of the picture, and it would have been a whole new ball game!! The rest is history!

 

[aafsc]

<_< That's correct! TWA was delibratly taken into BK to get reed of Ichan!!! aafsc thinks he's got it figured out, but he don't! He's put his own spin on it so often, he now believes it! He didn't live through it like former TWA employees did, and frankly really doesn't know what was going on at the time, and just prior to the time TWA when into Chapt.11 for the last time! I'll bet he didn't know the TWA Unions were talking to Boeing about a major investment into TWA, and senting up an "Factory MRO" here at MCI overheal Base!!! The MRO operation would have been totally seperate from the flying end of business so Ichan couldn't get his hands on that money! But they wanted to dump Compton, and the Board of Directors to do it!!! Compton got wind of it and excelerted negotiations with Carty!!!If TWA could have done this, and flown tell 2003, Ichan would have been out of the picture, and it would have been a whole new ball game!! The rest is history!

[post="292418"][/post]​

Companies talk to each other all the time about different deals, buyouts, and mergers. Most of the time nothing happens. Before AA purchased TWA's assets, they were talking to NW and there were a few reports that they talked to DL.
I have heard about the different possible scenarios regarding TWA; Air Tran, America West, Boeing, etc. If Boeing wanted TWA bad enough, they could have easily bought all of TWA's stock for chump change and put who ever they wanted on the board. Or, they could have outbid AA for TWA's assets in BK without Icahn. Boeing could have just bid on the MCI base. Anyway, TWA was in bad shape as to where AA was in perfect health. No amount of your spin will ever change that fact. NAAtives refused to bear the burden of TWA's financial inferiority by letting you decimate us with your 30+ years of TWA seniority. You TWAers keep spinning this to try and justify your attempted rape of nAAtives.

 

[aafsc]

The TWA chapter ii, was a way to get rid of Carl Icahn and his Karabu contract with TWA. I don't see How Carty, a protege of Crandall, would have let Icahn nose into AMR's tent.

[post="292375"][/post]​

Carty was definately not Crandall's protoge'. Arpey is. Crandall would have never had anything to do with TWA whatsoever.

 

[scot]

Lets wrap this one up please. Discussions regarding anything further on NW can be posted on the Northwest Boards. Please feel free to continue discussions regarding the turn in this thread in a new post if you like. This one will close later tonight.
Thanks.

 

[eolesen]

Please feel free to continue discussions regarding the turn in this thread in a new post if you like. This one will close later tonight.
Thanks.

[post="292507"][/post]​

Please, if you have any shred of mercy, spare us the agony of any further debate on the TWA/AA, even in a new thread.

It's gone on for five years, and that's far too long.

 

[upsilon]

Lets wrap this one up please. Discussions regarding anything further on NW can be posted on the Northwest Boards. Thanks.

[post="292507"][/post]​

And it is clear that the same AA AMT posters here are already the dominent posters on the NW boards!

Thanks to you scot. Now if only Former ModerAAtor's suggestion about the ad nauseum TWA-AA matter could be delt with in the same way.

 

[scot]

And it is clear that the same AA AMT posters here are already the dominent posters on the NW boards!

Thanks to you scot. Now if only Former ModerAAtor's suggestion about the ad nauseum TWA-AA matter could be delt with in the same way.

[post="292582"][/post]​

They were already happily posting away on the NW board long before my suggestion. And if we cut off the AA/TW debates all the time, this place would be empty.