Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Res Judicata]

 
The westholes went into this mess with eyes wide open.  The warnings went out at Wye River, but they were of the mindset so well summarized on this forum: "You won't get 200 cards."  They bet that the east pilots could not muster the orgnization and the abillity to get a new union certified.  I don't blame them.  Ousting ALPA was not something that was ever done easily, and this was a pilot group attached to ALPA for over 50 years.  I would have taken the same gamble, I think.  I just would have stopped whining long ago once I had lost the bet.

Oh yes!! You tough guys showed the West!! You've cut your nose off to spite your face and you fking idiots are incapable of accepting reality. OOOHhh scary "warnings" went out at Wye? What were those? Did the Eastholes pull out guns, point them at their own heads and say, "stop!! or I'll shoot"!!! Yep, real men of genius. You are as far away today from your dream DOH list as you've ever been. You haven't advanced closer to that goal in any possible measurement. All you did was drastically devalue your own career and enjoyed your little temper tantrum. That's it. You have accomplished NOTHING with USAPA. Nothing. I think Silver is going to enforce the Nic. She gave you idiots plenty of warnings and opened doors for you to escape. You refused. Just like in front of Nic. You're too blinded by the stunning failures of your career to entertain a rational thought. Start wrapping your mind around what a massive failure your little scab experiment has been. When the Nic...once again...is ordered by a Judge, perhaps you'll understand what a true waste of your life this whole path YOU CHOSE has been.

 

[traderjake]

 
 I just would have stopped whining long ago once I had lost the bet.

 
Lost?
 
Where's USAPA's DOH seniority list?
 
I bet the final outcome is a lot closer to the Nicolau Award than it is LOS.

 

[Phoenix]

Oh yes!! You tough guys showed the West!! You've cut your nose off to spite your face and you fking idiots are incapable of accepting reality. OOOHhh scary "warnings" went out at Wye? What were those? Did the Eastholes pull out guns, point them at their own heads and say, "stop!! or I'll shoot"!!! Yep, real men of genius. You are as far away today from your dream DOH list as you've ever been. You haven't advanced closer to that goal in any possible measurement. All you did was drastically devalue your own career and enjoyed your little temper tantrum. That's it. You have accomplished NOTHING with USAPA. Nothing. I think Silver is going to enforce the Nic. She gave you idiots plenty of warnings and opened doors for you to escape. You refused. Just like in front of Nic. You're too blinded by the stunning failures of your career to entertain a rational thought. Start wrapping your mind around what a massive failure your little scab experiment has been. When the Nic...once again...is ordered by a Judge, perhaps you'll understand what a true waste of your life this whole path YOU CHOSE has been.

Please clarify.  Are you here to present evidence to help the plaintiff or the defense?  

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
Lost?
 
Where's USAPA's DOH seniority list?
 
I bet the final outcome is a lot closer to the Nicolau Award than it is LOS.

 
It will be slotted, but it won't be even cose to the Nicolau fiasco.  There will be no westhole pilot 1400 numbers senior to himself.  Bet on it.

 

[Res Judicata]

It will be slotted, but it won't be even cose to the Nicolau fiasco.  There will be no westhole pilot 1400 numbers senior to himself.  Bet on it.

Ok. How much?

 

[Phoenix]

 
It will be slotted, but it won't be even cose to the Nicolau fiasco.  There will be no westhole pilot 1400 numbers senior to himself.  Bet on it.

Perhaps this explains Res Judicata's mouth frothing outbursts of late.  

 

[Phoenix]

Ok. How much?

We'll give you the first 200 cards that were sent in to USAPA organizers.

 

[end_of_alpa]

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West_Pilot_DFR_DJ/Doc_267_Plts_Response_to_USAPA_Motion_for_Summary_Judgment.pdf
 
Talk about "cherry picking", how the Westicle Lawyers really EVADE the truth buy partial quoting court cases that SUPPORT USAPA POSITIONS!
 
What they REALLY SAID!
 
Emporium Capwell Co. v. Western Addition - 420 U.S. 50 (1975)
"In vesting the representatives of the majority with this broad power, Congress did not, of course, authorize a tyranny of the majority over minority interests. First, it confined the exercise of these powers to the context of a "unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining," i.e., a group of employees with a sufficient commonality of circumstances to ensure against the submergence of a minority with distinctively different interests in the terms and conditions of their employment. See Chemical Workers v. Pittsburgh Glass, 404 U. S. 157, 404 U. S. 171 (1971). Second, it undertook in the 1959 Landrum-Griffin amendments, 73 Stat. 519, to assure that minority voices are heard as they are in the functioning of a democratic institution. Third, we have held, by the very nature of the exclusive bargaining representative's status as representative of all unit employees, Congress implicitly imposed upon it a duty fairly and in good faith to represent the interests of minorities within the unit.Vaca v. Sipes, supra; Wallace Corp. v. NLRB, 323 U. S. 248 (1944); cf. Steele v. Louisville & N. R. Co., 323 U. S. 192 (1944). And the Board has taken the position that a union's refusal to process grievances against racial discrimination, in violation of that duty, is an unfair labor practice. Hughes Tool Co., 147 N.L.R.B. 1573 (1964); see Miranda Fuel Co., 140 N.L.R.B. 181 (1962), enforcement denied, 326 F.2d 172 (CA2 1963). Indeed, the Board has ordered a union implicated by a collective bargaining agreement in discrimination with an employer to propose specific contractual provisions to prohibit racial discrimination. See Local Union No. 12, United Rubber Workers of America v. NLRB, 368 F.2d 12 (CA5 1966) (enforcement granted).
B
Against this background of long and consistent adherence to the principle of exclusive representation tempered by safeguards for the protection of minority interests, respondent urges this Court to fashion a limited exception to that principle: employees who seek to bargain separately with their employer as to the elimination of racially discriminatory employment practices peculiarly affecting them [Footnote 15] should be free from the constraints of the exclusivity principle of § 9(a). Essentially because established procedures under Title VII or, as in this case, a grievance machinery, are too time-consuming, the national labor policy against discrimination requires this exception, respondent argues, and its adoption would not unduly compromise the legitimate interests of either unions or employers."
They LOST before the Supreme Court JUST LIKE LEONIDAS WILL!  Hell, their lawyers cannot even quote Barton Brands which was about changing FROM a DOH to end-tailing the minority, or Bernard where ALPA actually EXCLUDED the Jet America pilots with their integration with Alaska.  
"By way of remedy, the district court: (1) directed ALPA to apply its current merger policy providing for negotiation, mediation and arbitration in order to resolve merger and seniority integration disputes between the two groups of pilots; (2) directed ALPA to treat the former Jet America pilots as a separate ALPA-represented group for purposes of implementing this policy and to appoint three Jet America pilot merger representatives; (3) vacated and set aside the October 6, 1987, seniority integration agreement between ALPA and Alaska Airlines; and (4) specified the basis by which pilots would be furloughed, promoted and given flying assignments in the interim period until a new agreement could be reached."  Bernard, ALPA screwing the smaller group by shoving them down to the bottom.
Barton Brands where the company convinced the unions to merge DOH in their first contract, the COMPANY didn't do what they promised and the NEXT contract the employees wanted to END TAIL the smaller employee group.  (Which they eventually did anyway).
Or how about their old stale argument from Air Wisconsin, even though what Posner said was obviously what that union implied they were going to do and deny the minority a voice and a VOTE.  Something USAPA NEVER DID!
 
You West pilots and your lowlife scum attorneys are going to get exactly what they deserve.  And when you lose... and you WILL LOSE.... you Westicles feel free to go POSTAL on Posinelli for promising you something you'll NEVER HAVE!  

 

[nevergiveup]

All the millions it's cost East pilots in pay and court costs?

So how much has it cost the west thus far? 

 

[Phoenix]

So how much has it cost the west thus far? 

Don't feel bad for them that they had to make donations in addition to paying dues.   They made soooo much more money than us lowlifes on LOA93. They could afford the cost.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So we appear to be back to this:


Pursuant to the Courts resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline Pilots Associations seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11th day of October, 2012.

_________________________

Questions:

Will Silver render a ruling in the Addington II case which is compatible with the ruling above?

Will she render a ruling before she know the details of USAPA's seniority proposal?

What precise definition of 'legitimate union purpose' does she subscribe to?

If USAPA does not meet her standard of LUP what will be her remedy?

Has the west class just been 'punk'd' by management?

oops. '84

 

[cltrat]

Don't feel bad for them that they had to make donations in addition to paying dues.   They made soooo much more money than us lowlifes on LOA93. They could afford the cost.

personally I think it was nice of them to help pay you guys lawyers too

 

[traderjake]

They made soooo much more money than us lowlifes on LOA93. They could afford the cost.

 
13% more pay, 33% more vacation, and better duty rigs
 
But hey, East pilots care about money or time off, just the Nicolau Award. 

 

[Phoenix]

 
13% more pay, 33% more vacation, and better duty rigs
 
 

Thank you for clarifying why we don't need to feel sorry for the West who are attempting to claim "victim status".  The only thing you could have included to further your argument is the number of years they have enjoyed these greater benefits while doing the same job.

 

[Phoenix]

So we appear to be back to this:


Pursuant to the Courts resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline Pilots Associations seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11th day of October, 2012.

_________________________

Questions:

Will Silver render a ruling in the Addington II case which is compatible with the ruling above?

Will she render a ruling before she know the details of USAPA's seniority proposal?

What precise definition of 'legitimate union purpose' does she subscribe to?

If USAPA does not meet her standard of LUP what will be her remedy?

Has the west class just been 'punk'd' by management?

oops. '84

 
 
Ironically, USAirways' motion for summary judgement to allow the West pilots separate representation for the purpose of MB does not depend on a "guilty" verdict of the DFR.  In other words, in their motion for Judge Silver to establish West representation, USAirways asserted Silver's supposed authority and responsibility to do so exists apart from her consideration of USAPA's DFR to this point (which is inexplicable since this was a DFR trial).
 
In a not so subtle way, USAirways pretends this is necessary to ensure a "fair and equitable" MB proceeding in the future.  Inexplicably USAirways does not take the time to explain why they failed to negotiate this provision in the MOU, though they now after the fact think it is an important provision that is necessary.  This attempt to get the court to provide something that they themselves did not even negotiate for is simply astounding.  It plainly amounts to an underhanded way of persuading Silver to find USAPA will breach its DFR in the FUTURE and must be prevented from doing so... BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT A TRIAL IS ABOUT....and USAirways protests that it is "neutral".  
 
Silver has found no compunction to pave her own path without confining herself to relevant laws or jurisdiction (accept for when she had to actual sign a published order ).   let's see what she will do when she publishes the final order for this trial.