More Time for Judge Lane

[Overspeed]

When are you, Mullins and John Richards going to El Salvador?

I don't know those people.

I hear the surf is good though.

 

[Overspeed]

At the last convention most of the current leadership ran unopposed, if you call that a election then Saddam Huessain was elected in Iraq as well as far as what the TWU leaders said in the past be careful what you say here, because I am in possesion of a Team Twu video featuring Kevin Hammock among others and they said many interesting things about AMFA and Dell and in time I am sure they will appear here for all to see.

By the way isn"t Team Twu leader Kevin Hammock now a member of AA managment you guys sure can pick leaders.

Classic. You blame the people but know nothing of the system. Why don't you start now to assemble a group of candidates and start campaigning. Put out a platform and reach out to the thousands of members beyond AA that also vote. Jim Little is not elected by us alone. He is elected by the entire TWU delegation. You guys act like AA is the only relevant group in the union.

 

[737823]

Jim is underpaid. According to the 2008 LM-2 that AMFA filed with the Department of Labor, AMFA paid Director O. V. Delle-Femine $560,394. Pretty good given that he successfully engineered an ill advised strike at NWA and didn't defend the UA outsourcing language and allowed thousands to be laid off as a result.

People here get upset when I say the union bosses work for themselves not the interest of the membership. Everyone has no problem going after management and other professionals making large salaries but union officials get a pass.

Josh

 

[Tex-Mech]

There was one variable that could have been changed and provided us to ability to maintain jobs and higher pay. A leaner, more efficient, and flexible work environment would have provided the opportunity to work with fewer people making more money and keep the work in-house. That is what Videtich was angling for but the combination of dysfunctional management and dealing cutting Locals worked harder and harder to tank the ideas.

Thanks for finally letting us know what the plan was. If we had open negotiations we would of all known what the plan was. Was this plan a result of contract proposals or just Don's plan? Were the negotiation team aware of the plan? And what local cut deals to tank the ideas? What were those deals?

 

[Overspeed]

You clip the questions you do not want to address, and then fail to answer anything.

You simply live on the past and ignore the present. You fail to hold the TWU to the same standard you use to measure others and then blame anyone and everything for what has happened right here at AA on yours and the TWU's watch. Your world must be really bliss, since you are appointed not held accountable, and in your mind someone or something else is to blame for all of the TWU and James C Little Failures.

We will all be out of job before you wake the "F" up and face the truth?

Okay. I try to answer as many questions as I possibly can. I apologize if it appeared I was dodging.

There is a saying that those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. I do not deny that AMFA did get a very good contract in 2000 and we built off them. It is not abnormal for unions to leap frog on other successful contracts. Isn't that what is being said when we are told to not settle our contract until after the other ones do? Wait for CO, wait for UA, etc...

Appointed? I'm not a union rep however I am a member.

Never said Little or anyone else in the union are perfect. They make mistakes just like everyone else. I

I am not blaming anyone. I am merely point out the areas where I see inconsistency.

 

[Bob Owens]

China isn't the only place. At the MRO Americas show Central and South America are being touted as the next airframe overhaul growth area. And check this out, as a testament to how bad the economy is, the "experts" at the show discussed that the rising labor costs in Asia have now made the US midwest and southern states competitive on labor costs.

AAR just leased the former NWA facility in MN, DL has invested more in Aeromexico (building more hangars), and Aeroman is building more hangars in El Salvador.

Well Latin America needs to build more MRO space for their own growth, like China, they arent expanding to do work for us, they are expanding to take care of their own expanding aviation industry.

At the same show AAR said they need 500 mechanics and the getting workers is their biggest challenege.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/latin-america--a-bright-spot-in-the-aviation-world-63403

 

[Frank Szabo]

Okay. I try to answer as many questions as I possibly can. I apologize if it appeared I was dodging.

There is a saying that those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. I do not deny that AMFA did get a very good contract in 2000 and we built off them. It is not abnormal for unions to leap frog on other successful contracts. Isn't that what is being said when we are told to not settle our contract until after the other ones do? Wait for CO, wait for UA, etc...

Appointed? I'm not a union rep however I am a member.

Never said Little or anyone else in the union are perfect. They make mistakes just like everyone else. I

I am not blaming anyone. I am merely point out the areas where I see inconsistency.

It's like this, speedy - get a decent deal for those who provide you and your boss a paycheck or risk going to the street yourselves.

We're wise to the dead and retired tricks of 2000's card drive - maybe the bus drivers will take a liking to you ATD geniuses.

 

[Bob Owens]

The TWU used facts, not fear, to educate the membership to vote.

Your Int'l reps are elected. Through a delegate process. Maybe you should vote in new delegates next time. It is not unusual for some additional staff positions to be appointed.

There is presenting the facts then there is selectively giving some of the facts to lead to a desired conclusion while claiming not to take a position. If the members knew that the companys ask had nothing to do with what AA considered was necissary to achieve a competitive cost structure, that using the companys numbers they were demanding $41 million too much from us and that the source for the claimed disadvantage was the scope clause, and all the rest was "gross overkill" I suspect the NO vote would have been much higher.

Officers are elected, reps are appointed. Who are our International reps here at AA? Drummond, Gless, Videtich, McCoy, etc . None of them were elected by the the members or Local representatives they oversee. We tried to introduce a Resolution where the heads of each division would be elected by the delegates from each division at the last convention but it was shot down by the International as they lumped all the Resolutions they didnt like into one vote to reject without even hearing what the Resolution was on the floor.

 

[Buck]

It's pretty simple. You have two choices given the industry's operating environment over the past thirty years. Jobs for money or money for jobs. You can't have both increasing in numbers working within an inflexible work environment whether it is driven by the union, management, or both. So givebacks could be swapping jobs for pay through increased outsourcing of work and then the TWU would be blamed for allowing all the jobs to be outsourced. Or, what was done was keeping work from being outsourced and coming up with ideas to create entry level positions where an employee could accrue seniority within the company.

There was one variable that could have been changed and provided us to ability to maintain jobs and higher pay. A leaner, more efficient, and flexible work environment would have provided the opportunity to work with fewer people making more money and keep the work in-house. That is what Videtich was angling for but the combination of dysfunctional management and dealing cutting Locals worked harder and harder to tank the ideas.

I read that article too. I was answering what my info source was about the MRO show. Yes, I threw in a Bob jab.

Are saying that this approach wasn't tried in 1983, with the B-Scale?

 

[aapitbull]

People here get upset when I say the union bosses work for themselves not the interest of the membership. Everyone has no problem going after management and other professionals making large salaries but union officials get a pass.

Josh

You are right and I give them no passes

 

[aapitbull]

Classic. You blame the people but know nothing of the system. Why don't you start now to assemble a group of candidates and start campaigning. Put out a platform and reach out to the thousands of members beyond AA that also vote. Jim Little is not elected by us alone. He is elected by the entire TWU delegation. You guys act like AA is the only relevant group in the union.

Yea the current president of local 100 was withheld from office so that he would not run a slate against jimmy little at the last convention I believe the three postion at the intl that are open now is a result of that oversight as the Intl calls it. As far as not knowing anything about the system unlike most I have read the convention minutes dating back to the late 80:s and know you cannot unseat the twu on their field with their ball it has been tried why don't you ask Mr drumond about the fate of the the Eastern flight Attendents back in the day.

You can sale that bull#### to some folks but not me I prefer to spend my time trying to rid the industry of this cancer!

 

[topDawg]

Well thats not what I heard him say, and so far I've sat through three days.

The Delta NWA merger took place in BK. Heard Akins say that yesterday.

As far as a USAIR business plan they would need access to AAs info, and they dont have it so they cant make a business plan.

Oh and as far as the TWU agreeing to a USAIR deal, like I've said before "I could care less who writes the check, I just care how much its made out for." I wouldnt agree to a concessionary deal for USAIR either.

Sorry but thats wrong.(if he said it, he's wrong)
Delta exited BK on April 25, 2007
NWA exited BK on May 31, 2007
Delta bought NWA April 14, 2008(announced) Approved on October 29, 2008 and SOC on December 21, 2009.

Looking back at other mergers, US/HP was a BK merger, with HP buying US while it was in BK. (and US also wanted to do the same with Delta and failed(thank God))

 

[topDawg]

China isn't the only place. At the MRO Americas show Central and South America are being touted as the next airframe overhaul growth area. And check this out, as a testament to how bad the economy is, the "experts" at the show discussed that the rising labor costs in Asia have now made the US midwest and southern states competitive on labor costs.

AAR just leased the former NWA facility in MN, DL has invested more in Aeromexico (building more hangars), and Aeroman is building more hangars in El Salvador.

*sigh* sadly most of that growth will be Delta aircraft. 737/757 work being done at AAR and SAT will move down in 2013ish with the 767 moving from China in 2015ish.
Also very likely they end up with the red tail fleet work. (no idea who does it now, but its not sent to GDL) So that 120+ airbus also. They say it will be for MRO stuff too, but that is going to have to be one hell of a hangar to handle, basically, all of the Delta HMV work, the AeroMexico work and more 3rd party work.
But don't get your hopes up on this being the thing that keeps your work in house. they will find someone, then someone else, and then someone else(and by this point you'll be beating you head against the wall trying to figure out how in the hell this is saving anyone any money. You'll also enjoy work being sent out then coming back to your hangars and sitting for a month fixing all the crap they "fixed" at the MRO). Delta has, in some cases, had 3 vendors in the 5 years the work has been sent out. Truly, truly sad what they will do.
best of luck to yall.

 

[lineguy43]

The TWU used facts, not fear, to educate the membership to vote. They did and they voted to reject. Isn't that what you wanted? The US Air deal was signed by all the unions, not just the TWU. My personal opinion is that was a bad idea. It is biting all the unions in ass now. All the unions have undermined their arguments that concessions are not needed for AA to survive after they had access to the internal data but will roll over on almost all concessions with US Air with practically no data. Bad move on the APA, APFA, and TWU's part in my opinion.

The 1113c process is bankruptcy reform brought on by master union buster Lorenzo. There obviously needs to be more reform. Even Crandall argued for BK reform. Remember he was pissed that airlines could run for years in BK protection while AA had to pay its bills. Corporations in the US have the deck stacked in their favor which is exactly why the attorneys and many (educated on the process) union reps recommended you to vote yes on the deal. If you know you are going to get your ass kicked in BK court that's not called fear, that's called respect for the process and the facts.

Your Int'l reps are elected. Through a delegate process. Maybe you should vote in new delegates next time. It is not unusual for some additional staff positions to be appointed.

The membership voted on it because the Int'l committed to it. Don't you think the membership should vote in something critical like the future of their jobs?

In your opinion this union sucks. The TWU never made promises like AMFA made and then lost the jobs of more than 50% of the members they originally represented. Was AS in BK when they shutdown OAK? No. Was UA in BK when they continued to outsource all their airframe overhaul? No.

Let me fill you in on a few things since I am an a former NW guy. Did AMFA make some huge mistakes ?? Yes they did. However, when AMFA negotiated that industry leading contract in 2001 and YES I say INDUSTRY LEADING. This was pre 9/11 when that little even happened everyone took it in the shorts as you know there is a little clause in virtually all union contracts and that is force majure. Even though we had a no layoff clause NW used 9/11 and the Iraq war to invoke the force majure clause in that contract. In the late 1990's when we were under the IAM and I might add NW was making record profits the IAM brought us back not even a mediocre contract it was down right piss poor so the membership went nuts and this was in the best of times in the ailine industry at least in the time I was there. Our retirement was 40 dollars per month per yr of service (which is piss poor in itself) The IAM came back with 60 and this after years of concessions. AMFA brought us back 85 in the very first contract. Bottom line is I do not fault AMFA for our demise. We chose to strike becasue NW left us with no other choice and it was by design the company spent 2 yrs and millions recruiting scabs do you think NW was going to negotiate in good faith? I am now at FX and I make a 100k with no OT.. I attribute my high salary to our fight at NWA which raised the bar and at least kept the good profitable companies FX, UPS and SWA from slashing pay and bennies. But once again industrial unions like the IAM and TWU and IBT (save UPS) have been racing to the bottom once again with wages and benefits. My feeling even during all the fights with NW was that if cutting jobs means keeping the wages and benefits high than so be it even if I am the one to hit the street. Better to keep this industry worth working for than to have a "job" with thrid world MRO wages.

 

[Real tired]

Let me fill you in on a few things since I am an a former NW guy. Did AMFA make some huge mistakes ?? Yes they did. However, when AMFA negotiated that industry leading contract in 2001 and YES I say INDUSTRY LEADING. This was pre 9/11 when that little even happened everyone took it in the shorts as you know there is a little clause in virtually all union contracts and that is force majure. Even though we had a no layoff clause NW used 9/11 and the Iraq war to invoke the force majure clause in that contract. In the late 1990's when we were under the IAM and I might add NW was making record profits the IAM brought us back not even a mediocre contract it was down right piss poor so the membership went nuts and this was in the best of times in the ailine industry at least in the time I was there. Our retirement was 40 dollars per month per yr of service (which is piss poor in itself) The IAM came back with 60 and this after years of concessions. AMFA brought us back 85 in the very first contract. Bottom line is I do not fault AMFA for our demise. We chose to strike becasue NW left us with no other choice and it was by design the company spent 2 yrs and millions recruiting scabs do you think NW was going to negotiate in good faith? I am now at FX and I make a 100k with no OT.. I attribute my high salary to our fight at NWA which raised the bar and at least kept the good profitable companies FX, UPS and SWA from slashing pay and bennies. But once again industrial unions like the IAM and TWU and IBT (save UPS) have been racing to the bottom once again with wages and benefits. My feeling even during all the fights with NW was that if cutting jobs means keeping the wages and benefits high than so be it even if I am the one to hit the street. Better to keep this industry worth working for than to have a "job" with thrid world MRO wages.

Oh my. Well said!!

The IAM is not the answer.