More MEM Cuts

[Kev3188]

^This^

As I said before, you recognize that you really should go into negotiations or union leadership at some level. It's great that you want to rebuild labor from the worker level up to leadership but it seems you have a lot to offer and would be valuable member of any team.

Thanks, man. Maybe someday.

Now Kev would you be willing to receive less total compensation (pay, benefits, everything-not just base rate) to have the security of a CBA?

I wouldn't have to. Like I've said in earlier threads, DL could have a CBA w/o any cost increases (compared to what's offered currently) tomorrow, and it would satisfy a huge portion of the workforce. That might sound outlandish, but keep in mind a lot of people are signing cards for non-economic reasons.

Of course that would require the company giving up the one thing they'll pay any price to keep: Control.

Your coworkers are not motivated by one or two free drinks from the company.
DL throws cash at the employees so if you see them as the problem, then again it is no surprise that you don't understand the way your coworkers think - or why they chose not to vote in further unions.

Apparently, you missed the subtle reference to your earlier words.

Try again: "Throwing cash at the problem- and an pervasive messaging campaign didn't hurt."

Hint: Per a previous post of yours, PMNW workers= a "problem."

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, NW people are not a problem, Kevin.

You like to keep that image front and center in your mind but I have neither said it nor has DL.

You might do well to remember that DL has had plenty of card drives but not one successful representation has resulted from those card drives.

And it still doesn't change that even the most cynical employee will be hard-pressed to deny how much better ECONOMICALLY they have it at DL compared to other airlines.

And you apparently miss how badly screwed up things are at other carriers due in no small part because of the contentious labor-mgmt environment that exists when unions exist.
You don't just toss a CBA into the environment and expect everything to be hunky dory all of a sudden.

Your colleageus don't want unions because there aren't a majority of them that see the problems you see and they are well-enough connected to the rest of the world to know that these non-economic issues at DL still pale in comparison with what exists at other carriers.

I told you years ago that you needed to consider a move to another career where you could focus on using your substantial gifts and abilities but yet you are still here.

You'll retire from DL in your 50s after a full career and as a non-union employee. Mark my words.

 

[Kev3188]

You like to keep that image front and center in your mind but I have neither said it nor has DL

Sure ya did. See below:

But sometimes you do need to use a little Visine to contain the problem.

Your (edited) words, not mine. Actually your original version was better. I believe it was along the lines of "Delta didn't do enough to get the red out." Awesome.

You might do well to remember that DL has had plenty of card drives but not one successful representation has resulted from those card drives.

Fully aware. Thanks.

And you apparently miss how badly screwed up things are at other carriers due in no small part because of the contentious labor-mgmt environment that exists when unions exist.
You don't just toss a CBA into the environment and expect everything to be hunky dory all of a sudden.

No you don't, but things aren't "hunky- dory" now, and the above implies that DL would suddenly become like mgmt. teams at other carriers. Surely, the "superior employment experience" wouldn't go away? Say it ain't so!

You'll retire from DL in your 50s after a full career and as a non-union employee. Mark my words.

Good to know that you've added clairvoyance to your skill set.

As for the future, who knows how it'll all unfold? All I know is you can't win if you don't play.

 

[700UW]

You know full well the unions play favorites in selecting shop stewards, officers, and other leadership positions. The shop steward can influence grievances and other workplace matters, they know who is in step with the IAM and who isn't. Take your blinders off, unions aren't perfect there are serious issues and injustices that occur. You have posted before about how people "have no idea what BK is like"..."I was on the negotiations at committee at US"..."after three rounds of concessions we still have a better contract". Ill attach Bobs post from over the summer, around here he is largely a respectable man of union values and that's what he said. See the trouble is you are unwilling to accept people have happy productive and successful careers without unions even in the airline industry. Again if DL is so bad why are they largely non-union? Why did the IAM get rejected by a margin on 70% at DL/NW in 2010? Why is jetBlue non-union? Virgin America? GoJet? Seems you aren't happy some have a different point of view and want to impose your narrow minded view on others.

Josh

Shop Stewards and Officers are elected by the membership, its called Democracy.

How is stating a fact that the US AMT has a higher pay level than AA an attack, its the truth.

JetBlue has five year contracts with its pilots that renew automatically.

Gojet is a part of Mesa and Mesa has unions, cant speak for DL, but they wont be non-union besides the pilots, other groups will unionize.

Look at WN, highest paid employees in the industry, most consistent profitable carrier over the past 30 years, and guess what, they are the highest unionized airline in the industry.

Pilots-SWAPA
FA-TWU
Ramp-TWU
CSA and RES-IAM
AMTs-AMFA.

So myself and others want to know what is behind your hatred of the IAM?

 

[737823]

Shop Stewards and Officers are elected by the membership, its called Democracy.

How is stating a fact that the US AMT has a higher pay level than AA an attack, its the truth.

JetBlue has five year contracts with its pilots that renew automatically.

Gojet is a part of Mesa and Mesa has unions, cant speak for DL, but they wont be non-union besides the pilots, other groups will unionize.

Are you that obtuse?

GoJet Airlines LLC is a division of Trans States Holdings, not Mesa don't let the facts get in your way!

A History of GoJet Airlines

Trans States Holdings established GoJet Airlines in late 2004 as a regional carrier

http://www.gojetairlines.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=69

And the shop stewards can still play favorites, Kev even said if they do it is not right. What about all the positions Roach & Buffy got appointed to at the IAM? When was the last time Roach worked a line at the now defuct TWA? I'm guessing its been at least a decade since TWA no longer exists and the IAM no longer represents the small handful of their workers at American Airlines.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Roach was elected to the GVP of Transportation, then selected and re-elected as the GST of the IAM.

Robert Roach Jr. is the 11th General Secretary-Treasurer since the founding of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) in 1888.
Roach started in the IAM as a ramp serviceman for TWA in 1975 and was a member of Local Lodge 1056 in New York. Soon after, he transferred to Local Lodge 1445 in Newark, NJ. He was elected as a Shop Steward in 1976 and served as Grievance Committee Chairman from 1979 through 1992. Roach also held other union positions in Local Lodge 1445, including Trustee, Vice President and President.
In 1984, he was elected District Lodge 142 Trustee and also served as coordinator for the District's Human Rights Committee. Roach became a District 142 General Chairman in 1992.
In 1994, Roach was appointed Transportation Department Special Representative and was appointed a Grand Lodge Representative (GLR) in 1996. From GLR, Roach became General Vice President (GVP) of the Transportation Department on June 1, 1999, and was re-elected in 2001, 2005 and 2009.
As Transportation GVP, Roach regularly testified before Congress on aviation matters including aircraft maintenance oversight, aviation safety and security, bankruptcy reform, employee pensions, industry consolidation and the state of the airline industry. He served as a member of the International Transport Workers’ Federation Executive Board and Management Committees for over 12 years.
Roach has also served as a member of the Executive Committee of the AFL‐CIO’s Transportation Trades Department, an Executive Board member of the AFL‐CIO’s Maritime Trades Department and Trustee to the IAM National Pension Fund.
On January 1, 2012, he was appointed IAM General Secretary-Treasurer.

As General Secretary-Treasurer, Roach is responsible for directing the finances of the International Union, ensuring the IAM stays financially strong. He serves as Co-Chairperson of the IAM National Pension Fund and the IAM Health and Benefit Trust Fund.
General Secretary-Treasurer Roach currently serves as a member of the board for the Union Label & Service Trades Department, the AFL-CIO Union Veterans Leadership Council, Union Privilege, and is a Labor Advisory Board Member of American Income Life.
He holds a Bachelor of Science Degree in Labor and Management Relations from the Empire State Labor College and is a graduate of the Labor Studies and Arbitration and Essentials of Conflict Resolution programs at the Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations.

R Thomas Buffenbarger has been elected and reelected as IP several times.

R. Thomas Buffenbarger is the 13th International President since the founding of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) in 1888.

The son of an IAM member, Tom Buffenbarger assumed his first IAM leadership post in 1970, at age 20, when he was elected Shop Steward of his apprenticeship group at General Electric Jet Engines, IAM LL912, Evendale, Ohio.

Seven years later, Tom Buffenbarger was elected as a Business Representative for IAM District 34, Cincinnati. In 1980 he was appointed as an IAM Special Representative for the Great Lakes Territory and three years later became Administrative Assistant to the General Vice President for that territory.

Buffenbarger came to IAM Headquarters in 1986 to work in the IAM Organizing Department and two years later, was appointed Executive Assistant to the International President. He served in that position under International Presidents William Winpisinger and George Kourpias.

From 1991 to 1997 Buffenbarger served as IAM General Vice President at Headquarters, functioning as chief of staff of all Headquarters operations.

As International President, Buffenbarger is a member of the AFL-CIO Executive Council and serves on the IndustrALL's Executive Committee as Vice President.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

And Buffenbarger came from GE Aircraft Engines, and Roach was from TWA, doesnt mean he cant represent the members as he was elected before TWA went out of business.

 

[737823]

All of that is the fluff PR BS they make available online

Josh

 

[700UW]

Made up?

Are you that obtuse?

Those are the facts and their background, prove its made up.

Keep avoiding whats your beef with your hatred of the IAM?

You have ZERO credibility.

 

[737823]

I think you are obtuse.

Show me one lie, you are just like Overspeed.

I write one thing and you claim that I wrote something else, and then say I'm wrong or I lied.

Imagine that, someone who claims to be a labor leader saying that unless a law explicitly says you have the right to strike that you cant strike, its the opposite, the right to strike exists unless there is a specific restriction against it.

The RLA says that if carriers unilaterally change rates of pay or working conditions workers under the RLA can strike, other than BK how else could a carrier legally unilaterally change pay and working conditions? Legislation says we can strike but a Judicial decision says we cant sttike until we exhaust the Section 6 process.


Sharon told us no such thing because its not true. The laws are equal, however the appelate courts ruling trumps the law, and it wasnt the BK court that made the ruling.

First off I didnt say that 1113 existed back in 1983, you say I said it.

Are you sure the Unions were decertified by the Judge? Their contracts with the company was wiped out and maybe Lorenzo refused to negotiate with the Union but thats not a decertification. The members decertify, not the company. Are you claiming that BK courts have the right to decertify unions as the Collective Bargaining Agent? Once again, show me where 1113 says that workers can not strike if their contract is abrogated. I know that there was no 1113 in 1983 but show me where it says that Unions cant strike if their contract is abrogated. Even the judge in the NWA BK case said they could strike, it was another court that issued the injunction, you should know that.

You did go through this twice right?

You admitted a while back that you left USAIR, after you helped usher in two rounds of concessions, so who do you work for now?

You really need to take of your rose colored glasses and put the koolade down.

You wont get a raise in bankruptcy, not gonna happen, you will take pay cuts, benefit cuts, loss of scope language and many jobs.

I have a little bit more experience with you on this matter.

Go look at both US' chapter 11 visits, DL, UA and NW, your lucky that you wont end up in chapter 7, you will experience lots of concessions, not gains.

You really dont understand the process dont you?

Every item in your CBA has a dollar amount attached to it, you are going to suffer pay cuts, job and benefit losses, and scope. You might not see money taken out in your hourly wage, I doubt this, but your paying for it one way or another.

It takes years to get back what you will lose, at US we are on our 1st post CBA and negotiating the second, and yes there were gains gotten, but still not even close to where it was.

Your gonna get hosed, and you really have no power in the matter.

Your cuts were not as severe under your "voluntary" concessions in 2003, in the second bankruptcy we lost 46% of the mtc workforce.

You really have no idea, every bankruptcy in airline industry for the past 10 years had very similar outcomes, pay cuts, benefit cuts, pension terminations, jobs lost, scope lost.

Believe what you want, I was on the NC, lived it twice (three rounds of concessions in two chapter 11 cases), sat in the courtroom during the hearings, spent three months in DC trying to hammer out a new deal.

The company has all the power and the cards in this process, you dont, and you will learn what I am telling you is what is going to happen.

The information on US, DL, NW and UA's bankruptcies are out there, go look and educate yourself so you know whats in store for you.

I have no reason to misinform and mislead you, just trying to give you the perspective of someone that has lived it twice and then some.

So you have $4 billion in cash on hand, how much is restricted?

So with $4 billion and $11 billion in debt, your still $7 billion to the negative and in chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, you have no idea what is gonna happen, you are burying your head in the sand, I am trying to educate you on what your in for, but you seem to want to learn the hard way.

You seem to be very naive on the process and whats going to transpire.

Bottom line is your in bankruptcy, the Judge, the executives and the creditor's committee is calling the shots.

Everything the company does has to be approved by both.

You have no power in the process, AA will get what they want and how they want it.

Bottom line is your company with whatever money they have are still in Chapter 11.

Keep believing and spinning it how you want, no employee groups is coming out of the process without pain and lots of losses.

You have no idea what you are in for, no power, no clout, just a judge that gives a company what they seek.

I lived it, have you?

Prestifilipo was at US during our last bankruptcy, he is a liar and dont trust him, oh by the way he is a king of outsourcing,
he over saw it at CO, COEX, and US, funny how our seat shop ended up being closed and the work farmed out to a company that is friend owned.

Your 2003 cuts mean nothing, we at US took concessions in September of 2002, ratified them and by December US was threatening chapter 7 unless all employee groups gave more, so in January of 2003 we took more concessions, gee if we took concessions three months prior why did we gave to give more?

And less than two years after we were in bankruptcy once again, face with more cuts, and what we gave in 2002 and 2003 had no bearing on the cuts we were forced to take in 2005.

Like I said, you all have no clue what your in store for, but keep spinning it cause when reality hits your gonna be screwed.

You all need to open your eyes and educate yourself.

Josh

 

[700UW]

 

[WorldTraveler]

Off topic because Josh is now able to find your own postings to challenge your own line of thinking?

Other members of the forum decided labor issues were fair game for a discussion about cuts in MEM - for which we still have no idea how many, if any, DL mainline employees were impacted. We don't even know the number of DCI/DGS employees.

No, Josh can continue with his line of debate even if it is now getting hot in the kitchen. You wandered in and he found just what he needed to make his argument from your nearly 20,000 posts, esp. since what he cited was used by you to argument AGAINST AA employees. Fair is fair.

Carry on or you can desist and we'll give this round to Josh.

Kev,
you clearly continue to focus on the Visine comment.... here is the original post from the now locked thread which I can't cite with the board's system... which is apparently why you pulled out one sentence:

ME: "I’d far rather that the former RED individuals who haven’t done so figure out how to succeed and work in the system that they have been given, even if it isn’t what they asked for.
There are plenty of PMNW people who have moved up and into the ranks of DL… the notion that DL has isolated and cut off PMNW people because they are RED is merely an excuse from those who haven’t demonstrated that they know how to succeed and work in the system they have been given.

But sometimes you do need to use a little Visine to contain the problem.
But let’s carry on with the facts…."


And yes, your reading of the first draft of the Visine comment is accurate with the exception of the "perhaps" at the front.

I have written multiple times on this thread and elsewhere that
1. DL bought NW because it saw substantial value in its assets and its people. PMNW people have worked hand in hand with their PMDL colleagues to build DL into what it is today. There is no PMDL or PMNW anymore. There are plenty of people from both sides who have moved up in both PMDL and PMNW facilities and departments. The notion of "divided" doesn't exist except in the minds of those who want to keep it that way... which is clearly a minority. I have specifically stated that you are an asset that I want to continue to see working at DL because you do what you do well.
2. I have stated multiple times that I don't want to see anyone affected by job cuts and there is no evidence that there is any systematic attempts by DL to rid the company of PMNW people. By your own admission, NW did not take some steps such as closing the freighter operation which needed to be done. NW received subsidies and loans which required them to meet staffing requirements which were likely not economical. DL did not need the cash NW once obtained and paid off the loans in order to be free to make the right business decision, not what would generate cash. I have specifically stated that the transfers and reductions that DL had to make were a result of the same merger-related consolidation of facilities that occurs in any merger. I don't read anything from PMCO employees complaining about UA trying to get the "gold and blue" out.
3. I objected to the Visine comment when it was first used and I still object to it now - as I have stated multiple times in the thread. My use of the comment clearly got your attention but I'm not sure why you found it so distasteful now when you have used it for several years regarding other people's job cuts - and again, you have suffered none.
My attention in throwing my comment in must be weighed against all of these 3 facts which have been well commented and not interpreted as a means of telling you that should be pushed out.
Let it go, Kevin. The evidence is overwhelming that I don't like the use of the Visine comment but very much want you and your PMNW peers to continue doing what you do very well and in winning because of building a new Delta that is far better running than any of its peers and you played your part in making the merger work in ways that no other merger of its size has come close to doing, despite the well-documented and acknowledged setback in some of the resources that you once had to work with at NW.

Specific to the capacity cuts, have you or others been equally as enthusiastic to jump on the news that WN has announced plans to cancel about 5 cities from ATL that are now served by FL or that B6 has just announced that they are cancelling JFK-PIT?
After years of reading on here that network carriers can't compete with low fare carriers, the evidence is clearly being shown to be otherwise. DL didn't roll over when WN came to town and WN is doing exactly what I said they would do... reduce ATL to a large city but much less of a hub than what FL operated, in part because WN cannot compete against DL's massive ATL hub where DL can dump far more capacity into the market and limit WN's ability to grow. WN has not been able to increase its market share in SLC or DTW, cities it has served for years so they are smart enough not to try in ATL and focus their efforts on far softer targets.
B6's move is exactly what I predicted would happen in NYC as well. B6 has been able to make many JFK markets work because other carriers left substantial room for them to serve the local market, esp. those which could be served from LGA but where other carriers including AA and US have been using small RJs. DL moved into LGA-PIT with large RJs and mainline service and within weeks of DL's addition of 319 service in LGA-PIT (larger than what US was using to its own former hub), B6 made the announcement they would pull their JFK service.
The exact same thing will happen in more JFK B6 markets. DL has added enough capacity to the preferred NYC airport for short haul traffic and DL has supplemented that capacity with the ability to connect passengers at LGA, duplicating exactly what B6 does at JFK, giving DL the ability to offer more seats than the local market needs and making it harder and harder for B6 to compete at JFK.

Your company knows how to compete aggressively against whatever it encounters in the market, Kev. And it is precisely that ability to compete with anyone and to think creatively and cost-effectively about running the business that has given DL an advantage that will help keep you and your colleagues far better compensated and with far better job security than your peers. DL's refinery, used mainline aircraft, and RJ reduction strategies could easily result in profits at DAL that are $1B or more larger than its comparably-sized network peers. That is exactly the kind of profitability that has allowed WN employees to become as well-compensated as they are.

The US airline industry is moving past overall consolidation to market specific consolidation and movement of revenue between carriers with DL and WN well poised to benefit the greatest from the shift in revenue. And so will their employees.

WN has pretty well won the game among the LFCs but the network carrier segment has continued to be significantly split between now 4 players. There will be more and more consolidation to fewer players and DL will lead that effort as it becomes more and more the one-size-fits-all network carrier that also is delivering its product well enough to become the preferred airline for business travelers, the exact demographic that distinguished network carriers from the rest of the pack.

Being in the airline industry will never be easy... but there are very few places left to earn an "easy salary." you are as well-positioned to have a solid personal financial future as you could be anywhere.
Your colleagues see it -and it will become increasingly obvious over the next two years that DL's plans and ability to execute against them are far better than any other network airline... and DL's ability will rival what airlines like WN have been able to do.

Your colleagues are interested in a formula that continues to hand money to employees, who are not problems, based on success.

And i still believe that you will decide it is worth your while in many regards to stay for a full career at DL and you will end your career realizing that DL really was able to do what they said they needed to do to protect your future and those of your colleagues - and make a whole lot of money for DL's stockholders in the process.

You will also recognize that no other formula or strategy could have delivered what DL's strategy has and will continue to deliver.

 

[737823]

Kev unlike 700UW recognizes that people can respectfully disagree about certain issues, particularly unions. Like we saw in the Hostess thread 700 charges people with being ignorant/obtuse whenever they disagree with what he says. I disagree with Kev but respect him and his perspective. 700UW equates any discussion about the IAM and their leadership to hatred and doesn't want certain discussions to take place, not unlike Overspeed is for the TWU at AA. Besides as Kev said unions are all about people having their opinions heard and an accountable leadership that delivers to the membership as Kev said. Suppressing any discussion about leadership seems to go against union principles.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

And yes, your reading of the first draft of the Visine comment is accurate with the exception of the "perhaps" at the front.

You should've just left it at that; at least you would've "owned" what you wrote. It doesn't offend me in the least; on the contrary, it was a refreshingly candid change from what you normally post. Instead, we get several hundred words of wiggle room.

Specific to the capacity cuts, have you or others been equally as enthusiastic to jump on the news that WN has announced plans to cancel about 5 cities from ATL that are now served by FL or that B6 has just announced that they are cancelling JFK-PIT?

I wasn't one of the bandwagoneers (either way) in the first place. My stance was-and is- that you ignore WN at your own peril.

 

[WorldTraveler]

. I disagree with Kev but respect him and his perspective. Besides as Kev said unions are all about people having their opinions heard and an accountable leadership that delivers to the membership as Kev said.

+1000

Kev is articulate and intelligent. My desire has always been that he use his substantial gifts to the best of his abilities... he is a leader and I want him to be in positions where he can have influence.

You should've just left it at that; at least you would've "owned" what you wrote. It doesn't offend me in the least; on the contrary, it was a refreshingly candid change from what you normally post. Instead, we get several hundred words of wiggle room.



I wasn't one of the bandwagoneers (either way) in the first place. My stance was-and is- that you ignore WN at your own peril.

I have no problem owning what I wrote... it was just excessively harsh to make the point regarding the Visine comment. Again, I would be happy to let it die and never see it again. I don't think there is any evidence of it being real and it only fans a DL/NW division which I think most people long ago buried.
Your profit sharing check will be calculated on the exact same basis as every other DL employee. And I hope it is BIG.

Yes, I know you were not one of the people who believed WN would steamroll DL. Not surprisingly, one of the commonalities between DL and NW - established by both long before the merger - was/is their cutthroat competitiveness.

 

[700UW]

Once again another thread hijacked by WT and joshie.