More MEM Cuts

[Airlinelifer]

Thanks Kev, but again how is this any different than DL? You will say that the CBA guarantees all of this which is true but if DL still gives workers the ability to transfer how is it any different? DL still uses seniority for bidding so how is it different?

What are juniority lists? Interesting that unionist condone bumping other union brother and sisters in other stations from their positions and then cover it up by saying "I have seniority". You are imposing hardship on your fellow colleagues, many of whom are more junior and possibly less able to handle the bumps in the road (home to sell, spouse job in city, child[ren] in school, family, etc). Is this your idea of solidarity? Outside the union world, people who do not perform get terminated. Doesn't matter if you are there 25 years or 25 minutes, if you don't perform to a satisfactory level you are toast. Move up or move out...

Josh

Thanks Kev, but again how is this any different than DL? You will say that the CBA guarantees all of this which is true but if DL still gives workers the ability to transfer how is it any different? DL still uses seniority for bidding so how is it different?

What are juniority lists? Interesting that unionist condone bumping other union brother and sisters in other stations from their positions and then cover it up by saying "I have seniority". You are imposing hardship on your fellow colleagues, many of whom are more junior and possibly less able to handle the bumps in the road (home to sell, spouse job in city, child[ren] in school, family, etc). Is this your idea of solidarity? Outside the union world, people who do not perform get terminated. Doesn't matter if you are there 25 years or 25 minutes, if you don't perform to a satisfactory level you are toast. Move up or move out...

Josh

Josh, FYI our yearly seniority list also had the knuckleheads that were FIRED from their positions at NWA that worked under our CBA. From attendance issues to stealing to fighting and everything in between.

 

[Kev3188]

+1000 to all of the above.

Been there, done that myself. Luckily, one of my available options was to downgrade and stay in my station, and we ultimately decided that was the best option.

And lo and behold, when the time came, my contractual recall rights insured that I was able to get back to my former position at the appropriate time. And you, or any else across the system could see it...

Imagine that...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Let’s be very clear about what we are talking about – DL’s employment policies or the reduction of the hub.

Because DL’s cuts at MEM do not affect hundreds of employees unless DL has kept MEM overstaffed for years.

The reason why MEM has seen more volume that CVG for years is because DL started the process of reducing CVG years ago and yet CVG will likely still end up with more service than MEM.
After all, you have noted that NW didn't make the tough call to cut jobs like the money-losing freighter operation and left that job to DL. And Richard Anderson had nothing to do with that decision since he did not come directly to DL from NW.

DL runs a profit-making business, not a welfare agency that has an obligation to pass out checks to anyone that stands in line.
It is precisely because DL knows what they do and doesn't try to do what they are not that you will receive what will likely be the fattest profit-sharing checks in the US airline industry in a few months - while many of your peers get nothing or perhaps enough to pay one spring month's heating bill.

Lest you tell us how much MEM thinks of itself, let me remind you that DL had a large operation at MEM and throughout the south long before NW ever decided RC was a necessary fit for NW’s network… in fact, significant parts of RC and NW’s DC9 came from DL. DL knows and has known what MEM is capable of supporting in terms of air service.

Even under NW's hub operation at MEM, the airport carried half or more of its traffic on RJ to RJ connections. That might have worked at one time but RJs at best only work if they are used to deliver traffic to larger, lower cost aircraft.

MEM and CVG were both oversized for the realities of the current economic environment, including fuel and industry labor rates even at smaller carriers.

Add in that the new pilot training requirements will substantially cut the supply of regional carrier pilots and there were going to be cuts someplace.
IN true economic theory, the less efficient use of scarce resources gets cut first and that is exactly what has happened with CVG and MEM RJ flying.

CVG has been whining about wanting to have a low fare carrier to come in and yet none of them have stepped forward. Apparently the thought of trying to build a hub and compete for the local market against DL even in an abandoned hub is more than any low cost carrier is willing to take.

Spare us the drama about making tough family decisions and reduce the equation down to “at NW, we had the right to bump an existing employee out of their existing job and create a cascade of job cuts.”

At Delta, you don’t have that right and likely never will because largely companies that have restrictive labor contracts have such inhumane and costly policies.

DL gives you a list of cities where you could MOVE and you might also be able to move into another department of the company based on your own training. (psss, Kev – you probably would have to demonstrate that you have ALREADY done a customer facing customer contact position to be considered eligible for positions in that area of the company… if you really wanted to have more options in the event of ramp cutbacks, YESTERDAY would probably have been a good day to express interest in a 125 position when one becomes available).

You can carry on for days and pages about how unjust and inhumane DL is, but the simple fact is that your colleagues decided that it wasn’t worth bringing in a union to have a contract written on the equivalent of toilet paper which the company could use to wipe themselves with and then flush down to the toilet- just as has happened with every other CBA in the legacy carrier segment of the industry. If you want to write, work on your shopping list and include presents for your coworkers and neighbors. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard finding a church or agency that works in inner city America that could use your gifts to help those much less fortunate.

Or if you feel terribly compassionate for your fellow workers, you might want to fill out on an authorization for a payroll deduction to support United Way or one of the several Delta employee sponsored charities.

BTW, how much do you two give to IRS recognized charity causes (BTW union dues are not considered charity even if they are a gift for which you have nothing to show)?

But above all also please don’t tell us how focused you are on compassion for others while trotting out the Visine bottle again, esp. after acting so enraged at the thought that perhaps DL should have used a little in your cities.

It was offensive the first time you used it and it is still offensive. People’s jobs – even if they are largely if not entirely DCI and DGS employees are on the line. Making a joke about anyone’s job cuts is disgraceful.

But you surely should not be surprised if “an eye for an eye” or a little Karma becomes the operative use of the Visine bottle instead of “do unto (and think about) others as you would have them do until you”

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Let’s be very clear about what we are talking about – DL’s employment policies or the reduction of the hub.

Because DL’s cuts at MEM do not affect hundreds of employees unless DL has kept MEM overstaffed for years.

The reason why MEM has seen more volume that CVG for years is because DL started the process of reducing CVG years ago and yet CVG will likely still end up with more service than MEM.
After all, you have noted that NW didn't make the tough call to cut jobs like the money-losing freighter operation and left that job to DL. And Richard Anderson had nothing to do with that decision since he did not come directly to DL from NW.

DL runs a profit-making business, not a welfare agency that has an obligation to pass out checks to anyone that stands in line.
It is precisely because DL knows what they do and doesn't try to do what they are not that you will receive what will likely be the fattest profit-sharing checks in the US airline industry in a few months - while many of your peers get nothing or perhaps enough to pay one spring month's heating bill.

Lest you tell us how much MEM thinks of itself, let me remind you that DL had a large operation at MEM and throughout the south long before NW ever decided RC was a necessary fit for NW’s network… in fact, significant parts of RC and NW’s DC9 came from DL. DL knows and has known what MEM is capable of supporting in terms of air service.

Even under NW's hub operation at MEM, the airport carried half or more of its traffic on RJ to RJ connections. That might have worked at one time but RJs at best only work if they are used to deliver traffic to larger, lower cost aircraft.

MEM and CVG were both oversized for the realities of the current economic environment, including fuel and industry labor rates even at smaller carriers.

Add in that the new pilot training requirements will substantially cut the supply of regional carrier pilots and there were going to be cuts someplace.
IN true economic theory, the less efficient use of scarce resources gets cut first and that is exactly what has happened with CVG and MEM RJ flying.

CVG has been whining about wanting to have a low fare carrier to come in and yet none of them have stepped forward. Apparently the thought of trying to build a hub and compete for the local market against DL even in an abandoned hub is more than any low cost carrier is willing to take.

Spare us the drama about making tough family decisions and reduce the equation down to “at NW, we had the right to bump an existing employee out of their existing job and create a cascade of job cuts.”

At Delta, you don’t have that right and likely never will because largely companies that have restrictive labor contracts have such inhumane and costly policies.

DL gives you a list of cities where you could MOVE and you might also be able to move into another department of the company based on your own training. (psss, Kev – you probably would have to demonstrate that you have ALREADY done a customer facing customer contact position to be considered eligible for positions in that area of the company… if you really wanted to have more options in the event of ramp cutbacks, YESTERDAY would probably have been a good day to express interest in a 125 position when one becomes available).

You can carry on for days and pages about how unjust and inhumane DL is, but the simple fact is that your colleagues decided that it wasn’t worth bringing in a union to have a contract written on the equivalent of toilet paper which the company could use to wipe themselves with and then flush down to the toilet- just as has happened with every other CBA in the legacy carrier segment of the industry. If you want to write, work on your shopping list and include presents for your coworkers and neighbors. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard finding a church or agency that works in inner city America that could use your gifts to help those much less fortunate.

Or if you feel terribly compassionate for your fellow workers, you might want to fill out on an authorization for a payroll deduction to support United Way or one of the several Delta employee sponsored charities.

BTW, how much do you two give to IRS recognized charity causes (BTW union dues are not considered charity even if they are a gift for which you have nothing to show)?

But above all also please don’t tell us how focused you are on compassion for others while trotting out the Visine bottle again, esp. after acting so enraged at the thought that perhaps DL should have used a little in your cities.

It was offensive the first time you used it and it is still offensive. People’s jobs – even if they are largely if not entirely DCI and DGS employees are on the line. Making a joke about anyone’s job cuts is disgraceful.

But you surely should not be surprised if “an eye for an eye” or a little Karma becomes the operative use of the Visine bottle instead of “do unto (and think about) others as you would have them do until you”

You are a real condescending and narcissistic individual. Looks like you cannot handle it when someone speaks the truth about the real Delta, and you go off the deep end.

Again... http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54206-delta-air-lines-to-build-heavy-maintenance-facility-in-queretaro-mexico/page__st__420#entry948297


That earlier post and the one above are examples of your instability and personal vendetta against a couple of people on this board when they don't join in on your Delta cult-like adoration.

 

[Kev3188]

Overdramatic much?

You may not like what others have written, but the "whole truth" is that it's reality. Just because it runs against the narrative that the company peddles doesn't change that.

You are a real condescending and narcissistic individual. Looks like you cannot handle it when someone speaks the truth about the real Delta, and you go off the deep end.

...Which is too bad. I suspect this is another potentially interesting thread with lots of moving parts that will die on the vine due to that...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I have no personal vendetta against anyone... but I am not going to roll over while a few people continue to harp on one issue - the ability to bump people out of existing positions and then use that as the basis for arguing how unjust DL treats its people.

The simple fact is that DL doesn't offer the ability to bump employees out of existing positions and neither do most other companies; only a very few union-represented employee groups have obtained that right for their employees. And in case you haven't noticed, the union movement in the United States is on its last gasping breath because not only are union-represented companies failing but employees at successful companies don't want unions. Add in that taxpayers are giving governments increasing ability to reign in the unbridled grab of unions and it is no surprise that there are people who want to tout benefits which not many people in the rest of the world believe employees should have.

DL didn't buy into the union mindset and neither have the vast majority of its employees, including the combined group of DL/NW employees.

Whether you and Kev and Lifer want to admit it or not, but NW's board VOLUNTARILY chose to sell out to DL and they gave DL very broad authority to do what DL needed to do to make the combined business work. UA didn't get that in the CO merger and AA/US - if it happens won't result in that happening.
NW's board's confidence in the new DL was not misplaced given that DL is the largest airline in the US based on market capitalization; despite being 2nd largest in size, DL is more than 25% larger than UA in market cap.
NW's board recognized that NW did not have what was necessary to compete in a consolidated industry; the fact that DL has poured 767s and 777s into SEA and DTW to grow NW's international operation while swapping out the 320s and 319s to DL hubs shows that DL had a plan to best use the assets of the combined company better than either could have done - and to the benefit of all involved.
NW's domestic system was overhubbed relative to what was needed in a combined network while NW's international network was undeveloped because NW did not have the small long-range widebodies that NW's network needed to have to develop further. DL is using its 20 year old 767-300ERs on longer flights and with better amenities than NW had on its less than 10 year old 330-200s.

Let me know when NW ever had profit margins as high as DL's and then we can determine whether I engaged in cult-like adoration or not.
There is a reason why DL has the highest market capitalization in the US airline industry and it has nothing to do with what I think.
Remember that not too long ago, WN was more valuable on the NYSE than every other airline in the US COMBINED. Today, DAL is worth 20% more than LUV - and they are still undervalued given that LUV's revenues are half of DAL's.
Did you pick up that UAL is worth less than LUV right now? DL's closest network competitor is worth less than the largest low fare carrier which is still half the size of UAL.

This is an internet chat forum, not a country club. If people want to campaign for agendas in anonymity, then they shouldn't be surprised to find those agendas challenged. FORCEFULLY and in anonymity as well.
It is not the least bit personal and those who choose to use internet chat forums as the means they use to propagate their message better be prepared to have it challenged in the same means, if not more forcefully.

I'll reiterate again that I would be happy to sit down w/ any one of you in person and the climate would absolutely change. IN the absence of a personal relationship with any of you, the rules are the rules of the internet. May the best debater win. I can use drama just as much as you can with the over the top attempts at swaying opinion including the use of Visine and the heartwrenching impact of family decisions when jobs get cut.

If you want to have an interesting thread, then leave the labor stuff out of the equation; it's been debate zillions of times here before and there is no reason to think today will result in any different outcome. Since presumably you are at work now, I'm sure you can now tell us exactly how many DL employees received notices from DL's cuts in MEM over the past how many months.

Or we can acknowledge that the MEM cuts are based on the continued retirement of 50 seat RJs which is driven not only by operational economics, huge upcoming maintenance expenses, as well as the impact of new government regulations which will indeed result in the cancellation of hundreds of RJs worth of flying thruout the industry.

And, with those real facts on the table, the decision to reduce a huge amount of RJ connecting capacity thru MEM and CVG was not only expected, but it is precisely what is necessary for DL to successfully adapt to the realities of the market. And again, DL is first out of the box among US carriers to come up w/ a plan for adapting to those realities with the likely reality that they gain a first mover advantage, whether short-sighted labor proponents can see it or not.

 

[Kev3188]

And in case you haven't noticed, the union movement in the United States is on its last gasping breath because not only are union-represented companies failing but employees at successful companies don't want unions. Add in that taxpayers are giving governments increasing ability to reign in the unbridled grab of unions and it is no surprise that there are people who want to tout benefits which not many people in the rest of the world believe employees should have.

More hyperbole. Dying breath? Unbridled power grab? Okay, then...

This is an internet chat forum, not a country club. If people want to campaign for agendas in anonymity, then they shouldn't be surprised to find those agendas challenged. FORCEFULLY and in anonymity as well.It is not the least bit personal and those who choose to use internet chat forums as the means they use to propagate their message better be prepared to have it challenged in the same means, if not more forcefully.

Sage advice; perhaps you should heed it.

If you want to have an interesting thread, then leave the labor stuff out of the equation..

Why? it may not be interesting to you, but it clearly is to many people on this website. And in this case, it's relevant, since a (continued) puilldown may very well affect labor.

Or we can acknowledge that the MEM cuts are based on the continued retirement of 50 seat RJs which is driven not only by operational economics, huge upcoming maintenance expenses, as well as the impact of new government regulations which will indeed result in the cancellation of hundreds of RJs worth of flying thruout the industry.

And, with those real facts on the table, the decision to reduce a huge amount of RJ connecting capacity thru MEM and CVG was not only expected, but it is precisely what is necessary for DL to successfully adapt to the realities of the market.

...And yet no one has debated that. Only you have decided it's a contestable issue.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Josh threw the labor issues into the discussion and you responded.

My hyperbole is no more over the top than a picture of a bottle of Visine or claims of how disenfranchised DL employees are based on one workrule difference that you and the union crowd want to push but your colleagues see as a non-issue.

BTW, will you be posting a picture of your profit sharing check on Valentine's Day 2013 to share with us or do we only get to look in your medicine cabinet?

If the RJ cuts are inevitable and DL has figured out how to move first to do what everyone else will have to do, then there isn't much to discuss is there? - except perhaps the additional mainline jobs that will be added as DL brings the 717s into the fleet which should replace about 150 small RJs worth of capacity.

BTW, good to have a little activity on the DL forum this a.m. and some great people with whom I can debate.

Anonymous, rough and tumble debate... apparently the way we both like it.

 

[737823]

The main difference is what I've already noted. It's a concrete policy, everyone knows it, and above all, it's transparent. The workers at least had a modicum of control over the process. At DL, they have none, and all of the info that was once available to anyone at anytime is now treated like a sort of state secret.

At other carriers, the bumping is a bit more convoluted. In many cases, you have to bump the junior person on the system. The company usually provides a list to affected employees of where those people are, and that can dictate where you can bump. As you might imagine, that can lead to a lot of churn; our language was, IMO, much more straightforward, and much more preferable.

Are you saying that at DL there are real concerns and instances of management playing favorites and inconsistently applying the policies and procedures yet that doesn't go on when you have a CBA in place? Kev, like I've said before you are a very smart and savvy guy. You do realize that playing favorites unfortunately is a reality for many in the workplace today? I could give you a multitude of examples but managers can selectively approve vacation time, arbitrarily give pay increases to certain employees, over/under exaggerate performance on annual reviews, hinder or facilitate promotion for employees and much more. I assure you this is not unique to DL. Sure having a seniority system is attractive to some but it certainly has its disadvantages.

Aren't we talking about reduction in force? That's a totally separate issue from performance.

Pre-emptive strike before it comes up: I have no problem with employee accountability.

Agreed but it also comes underplay in the issue of a CBA. My point is when there are is an opportunity to cut the people who are not performing at a satisfactory level should be the first to leave regardless of their seniority. Of course you will likely disagree and say that measuring performance and is arbitrary, not objective and inconsistent.

Josh

 

[737823]

Two more questions:
1) Why is DL doing this pull down in flying before the summer travel season? Wouldn't it make sense to cut in September or October?
2) Does DL currently have FA and pilot bases in MEM? If so, are they anticipated to close?

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

and it still comes down to the reality that the option to not playing favorites is to have a CBA which in the airline industry has been rendered to be a joke at worst and at best nothing more than false hope for most employees.

Again, the evidence is overwhelming that 40K DL/NW employees CHOSE not to be represented by unions and that precisely follows the same trends that are happening throughout the US.... unions DO NOT provide a service that many people are willing to pay for.

Performance evaluations are a reality of life in the working world and they do serve as a powerful motivator for everyone to perform or face the consequences of their inaction. Living in a sheltered microcosm of the world and pretending that is reality is questionable... and again, not very many people really want to live there - even outside of the airline industry and the dysfunctional RLA.

And despite what the labor crowd would like to say, there are plenty of laws in the US as well as corporate policies that protect workers. Terminating employees outside of established corporate policy is indeed grounds for legal action and there is substantial precedent for lawsuits against companies that act outside of corporate policy even when that policy is more restrictive than the law.

DL does enforce personnel policies which are written and known to DL employees and does provide a written evaluation process.

DL closed the MEM pilot base recently... not sure about FAs.

Given that alot of these cuts happen in less than two months - just after Christmas - DL is not willing to continue to carry dead capacity for months until summer.

There continue to be discussions regaring the future of Pinnacle which is in BK and in which DL holds DIP financing. The outcome of Pinnacle is closely tied to the further reduction of 50 seat flying and the acquisition of the additional 70 large RJs that are allowed under the DL pilot contract as well as potentially more mainline aircraft depending on the deal DL can find to get a bunch of the 50 seaters off of DL's hands.
Pinnacle pushed parts of its restructuring plan forward.

 

[Kev3188]

Are you saying that at DL there are real concerns and instances of management playing favorites and inconsistently applying the policies and procedures yet that doesn't go on when you have a CBA in place?

Yes.

You do realize that playing favorites unfortunately is a reality for many in the workplace today?

Of course, but the fact that it is occurring elsewhere doesn't make it right.

My point is when there are is an opportunity to cut the people who are not performing at a satisfactory level should be the first to leave regardless of their seniority.

You don't need a furlough to terminate under performing employees; there are mechanisms in place for that already (and yes, they were there under a CBA as well).

Of course you will likely disagree and say that measuring performance and is arbitrary, not objective and inconsistent.

This didn't make sense as written, but I think that any performance measurement should use consistent, objective criteria across the board.

Two more questions:
1) Why is DL doing this pull down in flying before the summer travel season? Wouldn't it make sense to cut in September or October?

My guess is that they don't want to wait- especially since the 1st quarter is usually the slowest, traffic-wise. Capture the holiday traffic & then be done...

2) Does DL currently have FA and pilot bases in MEM? If so, are they anticipated to close?

F/A yes, pilot no. No idea if-or when- it's slated to close...

 

[WorldTraveler]

forgive me, but it would be a tad naive to think that a CBA eliminates any chance of favoritism.
Even the most documented processes - whether with a CBA or by company policy allows the potential for different interpretation and use and that most certainly happens among union-represented airline employees.

FWIW, NW has long done (or did) a good job of being efficient so they obviously figured out how to get the dead wood out. And it still comes down to that you and I and the rest of the world really have no idea what has taken place between a company and a specific employee. Saying that an employee has been targeted and pushed out the door w/o recourse is a charge that could only be proven in court.

regarding "consistent," DL like most multistate/mulinational companies uses the same performance evaluation instruments and personnel policies hroughout the company except where law requires otherwise..and that does not exist anywhere in the USA, so far as I know. Whether a state has right to work laws or not has no bearing in the evaluation process.

oh, and you failed to answer the question regarding whether your internet skills will include an upload of your profit sharing check... you should be able to buy MANY, MANY bottles, yeah, cases of Visine with it.

 

[Kev3188]

Even the most documented processes - whether with a CBA or by company policy allows the potential for different interpretation and use and that most certainly happens among union-represented airline employees.

Not anywhere near to the extent it does now.

FWIW, NW has long done (or did) a good job of being efficient so they obviously figured out how to get the dead wood out. And it still comes down to that you and I and the rest of the world really have no idea what has taken place between a company and a specific employee. Saying that an employee has been targeted and pushed out the door w/o recourse is a charge that could only be proven in court.

It's easy to have an idea of what's transpired if you're involved in the process- or did you forget that under a CBA employees have the right to have someone in the room with them? Even with that right now stripped away, it's still not that hard.

As for recourse? Under at will employment law, unless it's a protected class status issue, there is none. But you already knew that.

regarding "consistent," DL like most multistate/mulinational companies uses the same performance evaluation instruments and personnel policies hroughout the company except where law requires otherwise..and that does not exist anywhere in the USA, so far as I know. Whether a state has right to work laws or not has no bearing in the evaluation process.

RTW has no bearing on anything in this thread...

oh, and you failed to answer the question regarding whether your internet skills will include an upload of your profit sharing check... you should be able to buy MANY, MANY bottles, yeah, cases of Visine with it.

NFW.

Why would you even think to ask that someone publish sensitive financial info on here?

...And really; what I get come V-day is really nobody's business, anyway. You'll just have to guess.

As for getting the red out, I'll let the company handle that. After all, "sometimes you do need to use a little Visine to contain the problem," right? With as many employees as there are in MEM, it might just take cases of it...

 

[blue collar]

When discussing performance metrics, why do you limit your views to network carriers - and leave out lfc's; however, when discussing labor you don't keep your views narrow, but expand it to outside of the airline industry? I guess it's all part of painting that rosy picture....