More MEM Cuts

[WorldTraveler]

yes, Kev, and you forget - or want to - that I was on the other side of the table and sat on various HR - mgmt forums and know what can be "gotten away with" and what cannot.

I could worry about being hit by a meteor as I lay in bed tonite but the chances of it happening are so slim I don't worry about it. Apparently your colleagues feel the same way about needing all the protections you seem to think are necessary. They are either terribly gullible and naive (I dare you to go ahead and say it) or else they have learned those fears really aren't founded.

I really don't expect you to share your financial information with anyone.... but neither will I fail to remind the community here of how much profit sharing Dl employees are bringing home... because it puts all those comparisons of salary and benefits in perspective. When DL employees bring home 4-5% more in annual salary via profit sharing than their peers - which they very would could do this year - then the pay differences that some want to talk about are a whole lot less, and probably to the detriment of DL's union-represented peers at other airlines.

BTW, I guess it is "sensitive" financial information if it is yours but if it is published scale information and benefit costs, then it is not "sensitive?"

You apparently missed it but I don't want to see Visine comments from anyone... they are tasteless. My use of it apparently made an impact - probably not unlike what some of the people who were affected and read your comments - and you haven't even lost your job.

Still waiting to hear how many DL employees were impacted by all this. You can't really think we will believe that NO ONE at DL was impacted despite these cuts because DL had already reduced staffing, do you?

You don't really think that some of those folks in MEM had a manager whisper in their ear earlier in the year that MEM would see further downsizing and the early retirement/package might be an attractive option - esp. with up to 10 years of retiree medical coverage, do you? DL would NEVER do anything that would have helped their employees make the best decision in the midst of a changing industry. NO WAY!

collar,
I have no problem w/ comparing any metric you want. But since the common reason that LFCs are excluded from legacy carrier comparisons is because LFCs such as WN don't have 40 - 50 additional years of legacy costs. So, yes, we can throw in any statistic you want so long as we equalize whatever stats to reflect the types of business each airline operates.

but so far this year, DL is running profit margins better than alot of LFCs despite its additional legacy baggage... which does include more than $500 million/year in pension costs that the LFCs don't have and for that matter neither does UA or US who terminated ALL of their plans in BK.

So what comparisons would you like to talk about?

 

[700UW]

Yep DL is so fair to its employees.

Thats what happened in Leadership 7.5, right?

Nope.

And thats why ALPA and the AFA got involved and got the FA her job back in regard to the botched drug testing.

Cause DL is so fair to its employees, right?

Look at the TPA and DFW hangars, shut down, yep so fair to its employees.

By the way, the IAM Mechanic and Related and Fleet Service and Maintenance Trainers still have a defined benefit plan that was negotiated after the original plans were terminated in bankruptcy, they are all part of the IAMNPF. And dont have to use their own pre-tax dollars to fund their retirement.

 

[Kev3188]

yes, Kev, and you forget - or want to - that I was on the other side of the table and sat on various HR - mgmt forums and know what can be "gotten away with" and what cannot.

Then you've clearly (conveniently?) forgotten what can be gotten away with under at will employment, and how little recourse any employee has.

I could worry about being hit by a meteor as I lay in bed tonite but the chances of it happening are so slim I don't worry about it. Apparently your colleagues feel the same way about needing all the protections you seem to think are necessary. They are either terribly gullible and naive (I dare you to go ahead and say it) or else they have learned those fears really aren't founded.

Actually, thouands of them *do* recognize the absolute lack of rights under at will employment.

I really don't expect you to share your financial information with anyone.... BTW, I guess it is "sensitive" financial information if it is yours but if it is published scale information and benefit costs, then it is not "sensitive?"

You didn't ask for data like a published payscale; you specifically asked me to post my check.

You apparently missed it but I don't want to see Visine comments from anyone... they are tasteless.

Great. Stop making them then.

Still waiting to hear how many DL employees were impacted by all this. You can't really think we will believe that NO ONE at DL was impacted despite these cuts because DL had already reduced staffing, do you?

You're framing it as if it as already occurred. These pulldowns haven't happened yet.

You don't really think that some of those folks in MEM had a manager whisper in their ear earlier in the year that MEM would see further downsizing and the early retirement/package might be an attractive option - esp. with up to 10 years of retiree medical coverage, do you? DL would NEVER do anything that would have helped their employees make the best decision in the midst of a changing industry. NO WAY!

Couldn't tell you what gets discussed there. I haven't worked there in over a decade. Senior people across the system were repeatedly encouraged to take the EO by local managers; I'm assuming MEM was no different.

 

[737823]

Yep DL is so fair to its employees.

Thats what happened in Leadership 7.5, right?

Nope.

And thats why ALPA and the AFA got involved and got the FA her job back in regard to the botched drug testing.

Cause DL is so fair to its employees, right?

Look at the TPA and DFW hangars, shut down, yep so fair to its employees.

By the way, the IAM Mechanic and Related and Fleet Service and Maintenance Trainers still have a defined benefit plan that was negotiated after the original plans were terminated in bankruptcy, they are all part of the IAMNPF. And dont have to use their own pre-tax dollars to fund their retirement.

What about USAir at PIT or LAS? They cut many flights and jobs at BOS in the past few years too. How did the IAM serve them? I guess they should just be glad they retained their seniority, the TWA workers can't say the same. You don't understand businesses grow and consolidate different locations at different times. Currently MEM is being scaled back, DL will find them other opportunities in the company. Again how did the USAir workers at LAS and PIT fare? You only care when IAM jobs are cut because apparently they are the only jobs worth protecting as they are dues payers for Buffenbarger, Roach, and the cronies at Machinists

 

[737823]

Yep DL is so fair to its employees.

Thats what happened in Leadership 7.5, right?

Nope.

And thats why ALPA and the AFA got involved and got the FA her job back in regard to the botched drug testing.

Cause DL is so fair to its employees, right?

Look at the TPA and DFW hangars, shut down, yep so fair to its employees.

By the way, the IAM Mechanic and Related and Fleet Service and Maintenance Trainers still have a defined benefit plan that was negotiated after the original plans were terminated in bankruptcy, they are all part of the IAMNPF. And dont have to use their own pre-tax dollars to fund their retirement.

What about USAir at PIT or LAS? They cut many flights and jobs at BOS in the past few years too. How did the IAM serve them? I guess they should just be glad they retained their seniority, the TWA workers can't say the same. You don't understand businesses grow and consolidate different locations at different times. Currently MEM is being scaled back, DL will find them other opportunities in the company. Again how did the USAir workers at LAS and PIT fare? You only care when IAM jobs are cut because apparently they are the only jobs worth protecting as they are dues payers for Buffenbarger, Roach, and the cronies at Machinists Place in Upper Marlboro. Bob and Tim are right about you cheering on concessions as other carriers, you feel guilty about what went on at USAir and feel less bad when it happens at other carriers.

Josh

 

[700UW]

They had the opportunity to bump and transfer with a defined process that is transparent, they had guaranteed severance pay and benefits if they chose to take the layoff and had unlimited recall rights.

I have been displaced several times in my career at US, when someone takes an airline job its made quite clear that you may have to move to keep employment.

I take no joy in concessions at US or any other airline or workgroup. Show me where I have?

When your an employee at will the company can and does whatever they want, when you have a contract there is a recourse if things arent done properly.

Ask the non-union folks what happened to them at US in 1992.

 

[737823]

You know full well the unions play favorites in selecting shop stewards, officers, and other leadership positions. The shop steward can influence grievances and other workplace matters, they know who is in step with the IAM and who isn't. Take your blinders off, unions aren't perfect there are serious issues and injustices that occur. You have posted before about how people "have no idea what BK is like"..."I was on the negotiations at committee at US"..."after three rounds of concessions we still have a better contract". Ill attach Bobs post from over the summer, around here he is largely a respectable man of union values and that's what he said. See the trouble is you are unwilling to accept people have happy productive and successful careers without unions even in the airline industry. Again if DL is so bad why are they largely non-union? Why did the IAM get rejected by a margin on 70% at DL/NW in 2010? Why is jetBlue non-union? Virgin America? GoJet? Seems you aren't happy some have a different point of view and want to impose your narrow minded view on others.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

US employees needed a union and didn't have one... they have one now and US mgmt has spared no expense in increasing the assaults on its own people.
DL employees didn't need a union to get them as good or better as what their peers at other airlines have... not sure why that is so difficult for you to grasp that no significant sized group has voted one in. Despite the thousands of employees that may think they need a union, they are not in the majority which is what is required.
L 7.5, DFW hangar... name any event you want... but you cannot deny that another event at least as impactful has occurred at every other carrier.
The reason why DL employees don't want a union is because all that recourse that you think represented employees have has been thrown out like a spoiled pizza by companies that have plenty of recourse in the BK court.
When unions actually have a tool which delivers something better than what "at will" employees can get working with their own company, the number of union-represented jobs will start increasing again. It's not rocket science.

Kev,
if the MEM schedule cuts affected people, they have been noted. DL doesn't load schedule changes that affect its people w/o telling them first.
Chances are real good that we are having another pi78ing match on here over something that hasn't generated anything out of the ordinary in DL's employment numbers.

I posted one comment about you and Visine... would you like to let us know how many times you have posted the Visine picture? And let me note that you were the one who trotted it out again today.
If you find it offensive that it was mentioned to you, then don't keep trotting it out regarding other people, esp. since you really don't know if these schedule cuts have impacted any DL employees.

I have no intention of mentioning it again.. if it stays alive it will be because you or others choose to do so.

Let it die... along with the hope that you will be a union member at DL.

 

[Kev3188]

You know full well the unions play favorites in selecting shop stewards, officers, and other leadership positions.

That's not entirely true. Those are all elected positions. The exception might be in a small station where someone volunteers to step up and be a shop rep, but that's not an everyday occurrence.

The shop steward can influence grievances and other workplace matters, they know who is in step with the IAM and who isn't.

A rep can certainly influence a work area, but cannot treat grievances inequally. That'd leave any rep wide open for a DFR suit. Any grievance committee chair worth their salt knows this, and knows to advocate the issue, not the person. They also know that not every grievance is valid, and if they're honest with themselves know how hard it can be to tell someone that.

Again if DL is so bad why are they largely non-union?

Short version: People like free sh*t, and DL is quite good at doling it out. Throwing cash at the problem- and an pervasive messaging campaign didn't hurt.

Why did the IAM get rejected by a margin on 70% at DL/NW in 2010?

They didn't. That was only one group (above wing, res). The other ones were MUCH closer, which if anything speaks to a divided workforce.

GoJet?

G7 is it's own story... If you wade off a bit into the internets, you can find it. IIRC, it was created as an end around for scope.

... US mgmt has spared no expense in increasing the assaults on its own people.

Same story at DL.

Kev,
if the MEM schedule cuts affected people, they have been noted. DL doesn't load schedule changes that affect its people w/o telling them first.

Who's to say? They may have done that before, but long warnings aren't how they roll anymore.

I posted one comment about you and Visine... would you like to let us know how many times you have posted the Visine picture? And let me note that you were the one who trotted it out again today.

Like I said, if it's so offputting to you, don't make likewise comments.

If you find it offensive that it was mentioned to you, then don't keep trotting it out regarding other people, esp. since you really don't know if these schedule cuts have impacted any DL employees.

...And you don't know that they won't....

Let it die... along with the hope that you will be a union member at DL.

Yeah, I'll get right on that...

 

[737823]

That's not entirely true. Those are all elected positions. The exception might be in a small station where someone volunteers to step up and be a shop rep, but that's not an everyday occurrence.

A rep can certainly influence a work area, but cannot treat grievances inequally. That'd leave any rep wide open for a DFR suit. Any grievance committee chair worth their salt knows this, and knows to advocate the issue, not the person. They also know that not every grievance is valid, and if they're honest with themselves know how hard it can be to tell someone that.

Fine but are you going to unequivocally say that a shop steward, union rep, leader, lodge president, (insert any other title here) is always consistent and treats all members fairly? I know people who are in unions (not by choice) and have been subject to retribution not by management but from union officials for going above and beyond at work "because they set higher standards others must then match" or for challenging and questioning actions by union officials. That's nonsense for you to say it is always fair and objective and you know it. Plenty of unions have appointed officials, you have posted about this before, read through Roach or Buffy's bios online and remember this is what they share publicly and the cynic in me leads me to think it may be otherwise.

Short version: People like free sh*t, and DL is quite good at doling it out. Throwing cash at the problem- and an pervasive messaging campaign didn't hurt.

No different with the IAM sponsoring cocktail meet & greets after work, bombarding the lunch rooms, showing up unannounced at workers' homes, following people around parking lots, etc. Again you are closer to it than me but DL said they would respect your right to chose, they have respected it for the pilots and dispatchers, had the election gone the other way they still would have respected the process. It's a two way street.

They didn't. That was only one group (above wing, res). The other ones were MUCH closer, which if anything speaks to a divided workforce.

And you could say the same of any election, including our recent election in the US. Sure Obama clearly won but not by a wide margin of the popularity vote, and our nation is clearly divided. But doesn't change the fact Obama won re-election and the IAM got decertified at NW. A win is a win. How well did the simulator technicians election work out? They got even fewer votes the second time around, they just couldn't handle the truth that the employees did not want the IAM.

G7 is it's own story... If you wade off a bit into the internets, you can find it. IIRC, it was created as an end around for scope.

Aren't all regionals more or less intended to circumvent scope restrictions? As I've said before take a walk through IAD or ORD for UA, it's largely express flying domestically with mainline service limited to hub-hub flying and a small handful of other flights. As for other postings online seem some are too egotistical to handle the fact that other may be willing to work for less money or under conditions they are otherwise unwilling to. I

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Fine but are you going to unequivocally say that a shop steward, union rep, leader, lodge president, (insert any other title here) is always consistent and treats all members fairly?

I'm saying the effective ones do.

I know people who are in unions (not by choice) and have been subject to retribution not by management but from union officials for going above and beyond at work "because they set higher standards others must then match" or for challenging and questioning actions by union officials.

That's too bad, and it's something that needs to be changed on the shop floor. I *never* discouraged someone from going above & beyond (assuming it wasn't something legitimately unsafe). I also think that healthy discourse with a union rep equates to a more engaged membership, which of course means a stronger union. I was accountable to the people that voted me in; why shouldn't they have been able to ask questions of/challenge what was going on?

That's nonsense for you to say it is always fair and objective and you know it.

It'd be nonsense if I said that it was unilaterally that way. I didn't. I said it *should* be. If a rep/officer/whatever has gone off the farm, or is no longer performing satisfactorily, then the membership should vote them out.

No different with the IAM sponsoring cocktail meet & greets after work...

Like I said; people dig free sh*t. I always hated that type of stuff, and refuse to participate. Same story with DL having a cocktail hour after most all of their trainings. Pass.

Again you are closer to it than me but DL said they would respect your right to chose, they have respected it for the pilots and dispatchers, had the election gone the other way they still would have respected the process. It's a two way street.

I honestly think they had-and have- a nuclear option or two ready should fleet service secure representation going forward. Call it tin-foil hat-ish, but they're might be a nicely worded memo afterward, but IMO they will never gladly abide by the masses' decision to organize.

And you could say the same of any election, including our recent election in the US. Sure Obama clearly won but not by a wide margin of the popularity vote, and our nation is clearly divided. But doesn't change the fact Obama won re-election and the IAM got decertified at NW.

Your post implied that the 70% margin was an inclusive total of all work groups. It's not.

BTW, Obama's total was the 2nd highest popular vote total for a Dem ever. 2nd only to...himself in '08. Just sayin'

Aren't all regionals more or less intended to circumvent scope restrictions?

Ha!

Touche.

Seriously though that's what G7 was born out of. Call it an end around of an end around, if you will...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
if you believe cash is "free sh*t" is a motivational resource that DL should not use and that is only being used to enslave the masses, then I can guarantee you 100% that you will lose the argument. everyday.
It is precisely that free sh*t that people go to work to earn and the more of it they can get, the happier they are. There aren't too many folks at DL who do what they do regardless of the pay - nor should they be.

There is a substantial difference in the amount of "free sh*t" that DL throws its employees compared to what US does... and I'm not talking about t-shirts and hats etc. I'm talking about stuff you report they report to the IRS. Stuff that the DOT tracks and shows that DL's salary and benefit packages for most employee groups is far higher than at other carriers.

THAT is why DL employees see little reason to trade what they have for what other carriers offer.... and that will be all the more obvious on Valentine's Day 2013 when you take home a 6 figure check (ok, with 2 decimal places) but let's be real honest that many of your airline industry peers won't get any and many of those that do will be getting 5 figures (including the 2 decimal places).

I find the Visine comment offensive to anyone that is affected by an unwanted job change which so far as I know does not include you; apparently your reaction means it did hit a raw nerve. I would be happy to see the comment dead and buried so feel free to join me if you find my use of it to you offensive.

Your peers simply do not see the threats or fears that you do. You can either live with that reality and recognize you will always be wanting something others don't see a need for or you can believe that their faith in the present situation is not a blind faith but has been developed over a good period of time - and more significantly is further reinforced everytime they look around at the industry today.

One of the realities that DL employees see today is that other carries continue to add regional jet capacity while DL is reducing RJ capacity NOW. Even the proponents of UA's new pilot agreement - which was supposedly modeled after DL's - admit that UA could still grow their regional network before limitations kick in that pull capacity or require UA to add mainline aircraft.

You can bet that if labor can recognize today that UA has the ability to grow its regional network further that the eventualities will at least prove they were right.

DL is reducing RJ capacity because it makes economic sense to do so - and part of that reason is because DL is overstaffed with mainline pilots and can staff a significant portion of the 717 flying w/ existing DL pilots. And the chance that UA or AA will find similarly low cost mainline aircraft like the 717 are very slim, making it much less likely they will be motivated to figure out a way to add mainline small jet flying.

It is precisely the first mover, out of the box ways that DL has used to run its business that have created opportunities for the company and helped protect or grow jobs better than its competitors have done for their employees. The refinery and the TOC are other examples of how DL zigs when others zag to the benefit of all involved including employees and why what happens at other carriers is not predictive of what will happen to DL employees.

add in that DL continues to move corporate revenue as a result of the excellent job the airline (and that means you) are doing and you have as much job security as anyone can have in the airline industry.
This is what the Business Travel Network said about DL in naming them as their #1 airline
"We offer our congratulations to Delta Air Lines for their strong showing across all the categories we measured in our latest Annual Airline Survey. Their efforts over the past several years are clearly resonating within the business travel community," said Tim Reid, vp-Group publisher, The BTN Group.

with this background
Corporate travel managers again rated Delta Air Lines No. 1 in this year's Business Travel News Annual Airline Survey. The airline ranked first among all carriers in key categories including: Value of Relationships with Account Managers and Sales Representatives; Distribution Channels; Complaint/Problem Resolution; Quality of Customer Service; and Networks, Airline Partnerships and Frequencies.
The annual Business Travel News survey is voted on by corporate travel managers who are key influencers of business travel decisions. Participating airlines surveyed include American, Southwest, United and US Airways.

 

[Kev3188]

That'll do, WT, that'll do.

Take a deep breath, count to 10, and go back & read what I wrote. See the part where I mentioned huge amounts of cash? Yes? Ok, good.

 

[737823]

I'm saying the effective ones do.

That's too bad, and it's something that needs to be changed on the shop floor. I *never* discouraged someone from going above & beyond (assuming it wasn't something legitimately unsafe). I also think that healthy discourse with a union rep equates to a more engaged membership, which of course means a stronger union. I was accountable to the people that voted me in; why shouldn't they have been able to ask questions of/challenge what was going on?

It'd be nonsense if I said that it was unilaterally that way. I didn't. I said it *should* be. If a rep/officer/whatever has gone off the farm, or is no longer performing satisfactorily, then the membership should vote them out.

^This^

As I said before, you recognize that you really should go into negotiations or union leadership at some level. It's great that you want to rebuild labor from the worker level up to leadership but it seems you have a lot to offer and would be valuable member of any team.

Like I said; people dig free sh*t. I always hated that type of stuff, and refuse to participate. Same story with DL having a cocktail hour after most all of their trainings. Pass.

I honestly think they had-and have- a nuclear option or two ready should fleet service secure representation going forward. Call it tin-foil hat-ish, but they're might be a nicely worded memo afterward, but IMO they will never gladly abide by the masses' decision to organize.

Now Kev would you be willing to receive less total compensation (pay, benefits, everything-not just base rate) to have the security of a CBA? You seem to forget again, that clearly your co-workers prefer what DL is offering currently or at least they did in October 2010. If DL is such a bad employer, are wrongfully terminating people, selectively applying policies and procedures as you have mentioned then when it comes time for an election that will show in the results. Clearly enough people are content with what DL is offering and do not have the same feelings as you. Again, I'm not saying your perspective isn't worth considering but it speaks volumes when all the representational elections at DL rejected union representation despite the rule change and subsequent (unsuccessful) interference charges.

Ha!

Touche.

Seriously though that's what G7 was born out of. Call it an end around of an end around, if you will...

Glad we can agree here.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

I can read exactly what you wrote, Kev.

Short version: People like free sh*t, and DL is quite good at doling it out. Throwing cash at the problem- and an pervasive messaging campaign didn't hurt.

Your coworkers are not motivated by one or two free drinks from the company.
DL throws cash at the employees so if you see them as the problem, then again it is no surprise that you don't understand the way your coworkers think - or why they chose not to vote in further unions.
If the "problem" is the voting campaign that was required for a union to be seated, then I'm not sure why you think DL wouldn't have thrown money into the campaign although I do recall you have posted that you thought that DL shouldn't have been allowed to say what they said, including mailing all those flyers to your home - and dozens of others. The unions certainly spent their money and they got a lot of people on the ground who made house calls, and I do mean literally.

The representation elections were held by a higher standard than had been used for previous elections and it still didn't work.

Your coworkers declined further representation because they don't believe they need it. Plain and simple. They have a formula that is delivering better results for them than any of their network carrier employee peers and it is likely even the vaunted WN won't be sending out profit sharing checks in the amounts that DL will send out.

Of course Kev is not going to settle for less pay in order to have a CBA, Josh. And neither are his peers.

And given that DL is indeed growing revenue as good as or better than its peers which is exactly what is necessary to provide job security and increased pay, something that CBAs at other carriers ARE NOT delivering on anywhere near the scale DL employees are receiving.

GoJets is a contractor just like GeorgiaPacific for paper products. When a lower price comes along, the current vendor has to cut its price, demonstrate why it is worth more, or lose the business.

DL made it VERY CLEAR on the day of the DL/NW merger announcement that its DCI carriers would bear the brunt of the cuts in the merger and subsequent restructuring and that is EXACTLY what has happened... which is why DL employees are experiencing more job security and career growth than their peers at other legacy carriers.

DL came out of BK w/ a very clear plan, articulated significant pieces of it at the time of the merger, and has continued to grow that strategy since.

DL's strategy is working and DL's success in the marketplace is directly tied to its employees ability to succeed as well.

Higher pay, job growth, career progression is all ANYONE can realistically hope for in a job.... if an airline can deliver those things then the rest is honestly immaterial.