Mtnman928
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Phoenix said:
I guess I'll be getting a retro check back from the IRS on the money I earned and had to pay back to the company
Mgt Demands Retroactive Paycut For Pilots
- Thread starter Phoenix
- Start date
I guess I'll be getting a retro check back from the IRS on the money I earned and had to pay back to the company
TheLarkAscending
Veteran
UseYourHead said:
What is to say this poster is not a pilot, too, as well as the wife of an aviator? Others have "come over here and discussed their surfing", and you've not questioned or taken them to task. Wives and Husbands often ask each other to check on things when they're not able to access a computer. Wives and Husbands actually talk to one another and share information and concerns about their futures, I think they can even share bank accounts now, too. Wow, we've come a long way baby.......
Dilligas
Veteran
PITbull said:
Hmmm
I might agree, but then again, its all greek to me. :blink:
willyloman
Member
- Jan 23, 2003
- 72
- 0
What you are missing in this thread is the latest offer’s reference to LOA 9l. Management wants the CJR800s and the EMB190-195s to be placed at MDA. Everything else in the offer is a distraction. Figure it out for yourselves what the ramifications are for the narrowbody fleet at U and its employees. As the large “small†jets arrive on the tarmac, those mainline aircraft will go. It means whatever we vote for most likely will eventually end up at MDA. Management intends to do this whether we have an agreement or not. They will do it in Chapter 11 nonetheless. It’s been the plan eve since DS arrive at U, and you can thank the 75% ALPA pilots who have enabled management to do this.
I am not angry at management; I am angry at the cowardly 75% ALPA members (give or take one or two percent) who have always voted yes to every contract put in front of them; these yes voters have enabled bad management to exist, these yes voters have enabled the outsourcing of our jobs to MDA (paid for by the employees), and the yes voters have enabled management to come roaring back for more because they know that the yes voters will squeal like stuck pigs and beg, as they are doing now, to allow another ratification of this new and improved travesty of a contract proposal. H.ll, I’d do the same if I were management. We can all thank the 75% of ALPA yes voters for decimating the careers of the 28,000 employees at USAirways.
Avi8tor Wife: You state you’ve advocated ALPA vote yes (two times, I believe), not for you, yourself , but for the 28,000 employees of USAirways. For God’s sake woman, how darn patronizing you are!! Let me briefly explain the function of unions for you: ALPA is a union, it is supposed to take care of its members. The IAM, the AFA, the CWA and the TWU take care of their own members. For the most part, each chooses to negotiate or not to whatever is in the best interests of its members. That you say that ALPA should do it for all the employees is insulting. To falsely believe that ALPA is the leader for all the other unions to follow and will be the saving grace of all the employees is so full of pomposity and hubris that it will undoubtedly bring about the downfall of all of us. Those ALPA yes votes at any cost mentality has effectively destroyed the careers of the 28,000 who you supposedly care about, and worse, has put the entire US piloting profession as a viable career choice in jeopardy. If all the employees put their faith in what ALPA would negotiate and vote upon, based on their past history, heaven help us all.
Also, Avi8torwife: What do you mean Chip’s ready to walk? Can you read? Look at his latest post (at this writing) on this thread. Don’t you understand, Chip has always been willing, with the exception of around 5 minutes at the termination of our DB plan, to sell out all the pilots below him on the seniority list in order to temporarily salvage what remains of his career.
I
I am not angry at management; I am angry at the cowardly 75% ALPA members (give or take one or two percent) who have always voted yes to every contract put in front of them; these yes voters have enabled bad management to exist, these yes voters have enabled the outsourcing of our jobs to MDA (paid for by the employees), and the yes voters have enabled management to come roaring back for more because they know that the yes voters will squeal like stuck pigs and beg, as they are doing now, to allow another ratification of this new and improved travesty of a contract proposal. H.ll, I’d do the same if I were management. We can all thank the 75% of ALPA yes voters for decimating the careers of the 28,000 employees at USAirways.
Avi8tor Wife: You state you’ve advocated ALPA vote yes (two times, I believe), not for you, yourself , but for the 28,000 employees of USAirways. For God’s sake woman, how darn patronizing you are!! Let me briefly explain the function of unions for you: ALPA is a union, it is supposed to take care of its members. The IAM, the AFA, the CWA and the TWU take care of their own members. For the most part, each chooses to negotiate or not to whatever is in the best interests of its members. That you say that ALPA should do it for all the employees is insulting. To falsely believe that ALPA is the leader for all the other unions to follow and will be the saving grace of all the employees is so full of pomposity and hubris that it will undoubtedly bring about the downfall of all of us. Those ALPA yes votes at any cost mentality has effectively destroyed the careers of the 28,000 who you supposedly care about, and worse, has put the entire US piloting profession as a viable career choice in jeopardy. If all the employees put their faith in what ALPA would negotiate and vote upon, based on their past history, heaven help us all.
Also, Avi8torwife: What do you mean Chip’s ready to walk? Can you read? Look at his latest post (at this writing) on this thread. Don’t you understand, Chip has always been willing, with the exception of around 5 minutes at the termination of our DB plan, to sell out all the pilots below him on the seniority list in order to temporarily salvage what remains of his career.
I
Dilligas
Veteran
TheLarkAscending said:Wow, we've come a long way baby.......
Which one is you, Lark... frontseat or back? Cool gif!
careerfurloughee
Advanced
- Apr 7, 2004
- 233
- 0
willyloman said:
When you distill all of his posts down to thier essense that is what is left, sadly.
OP
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
- 8,584
- 7,430
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #38
willyloman said:
The ramification is that another 35% of Mainline employees will be relegated to Express Pay.
ALPA has already declared that MidAtlantic pilots are Mainline employees. (Mainline Furloughed pilots were “welcomed back†to Mainline when they accepted jobs at MidAtlantic. And they are “represented†by the same MEC that stuck them there and told them they are Mainline pilots. However, they are paid at Express rates, minus all the seniority they had at Mainline.)
The 279 minimum fleet size includes planes at Mid Atlantic because Mid Atlantic is Mainline, just like MetroJet was. You get to wear the Mainline hat insignia and wings. What more do you want? A pay check to match? Ha!
For the few pilots who have actually voted no these many years while the fearful voted yes, my condolences. I am not certain the retirees could put it so graciously.
To the MEC that led the way: the infamy of your cowardice will outlast the spoils you have retained for yourself.
Respectruly,
Phoenix
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
UseYourHead, I let my wife over there. What, you have a problem with that? Sometimes the spouse sees things differently and more accurately I may add.UseYourHead said:
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
willyloman, I could not have said it better myself. It's time for the Nancy Boys to be voted out of office.
TheLarkAscending
Veteran
SilliDilli! I always share every responsibility unless I've decided to put myself in charge!Dilligas said:Which one is you, Lark... frontseat or back? Cool gif!
Hey Dizel8 -- you're very perceptive! :blush: :blush:As to what I actually believe is happening: they are currently negotiating to dumb all of these professions down to the lowest possible payscales. In 5 to 15 years you may not be able to find a pilot, or a skilled mechanic, etc., the way we currently can't locate an experienced or career-minded nurse. No one will want to do it because it won't be attractive enough for real long-term career potential...it won't pay enough for the professional trade-offs. All of these negotiations will have very serious and long-term consequences for the industry and the professions within. :blink:
savyinvestor
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 494
- 0
So you are a pilot. I thought so even though you denied it. No big deal EYE, but its nice to be honest. Savy
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
And, your point is? What are you Mr. Magoo? Whatever, people read what they want to believe....savyinvestor said:
av8orwife
Member
I posted on this topic to discuss that - if in fact - the company is requesting pilots to repay their past earnings is absurb. And based on that thinking it should be voted down. Not to mention the other 100 things that is wrong with it. Perhaps it would be better with the Judge. That's assuming it would be a chapter 11.
Is it possible the have a contract that pays a far wage for the responsibility given and have the Company make a profit. It appears that it is possible, as we have been shown by Southwest it is possible. So it is not really a question of if, its a question of how.
So how can U do it. Well perhaps management needs to show leadership and trust. Perhaps the union could be more flexable. Both could be more productive. But I think that the union hates management and vise versa... So much for teamwork....
I also want to state that I feel those in ALPA MEC represent themselves and their personal goals and objectives and not necessarily those of its members. Just as in all politics. I have never truly agreed with the decisions of the Union leaders. I don't think they think of those at the bottom but only at the top. What's in it for me. That's just people.
I personally feel that the Union vs Management process sometimes is not the most effective busines model. Not that unions don't serve a purpose I just think it changes the focus from planning together to plotting against. And thus leads us down our current situation. Bad managment and Bad Union leadership. Both are at fault. And without trust, leadership, and a plan the Company has no direction.
I do not think all unions serve the best interst of their members. Just as those in politics do not always serve the best interst of the people who voted for them. I also do not think that Managements goal at this Company is to see the employees as an asset but rather as an expense.
I just think the whole thing is broken. It sould have been fixed during the last Bankruptcy. Why can't they just thow out the current contract and start over. Re-invent the Company it's purpose, define it's customer -or market, and then put it together. You would think that after the past four years this could have been done???? Perhaps both sides are just a day late and a dollar short.
It is also my view, held by many, that the Company's management has no vision, no leadership, and has lied, cheated and stole (legally) money from the shareholders, Wolf and gang took millions not to mention DAVE. so who is Bruce (is it Bruce?? Lakefield) who really cares, will he make a difference, has any of the others?? Oh, that is the lack of Leadership. I'm sure he is probably a nice guy who was asked as a favor to Bonner to take on the job, and so here he is. But has he made a difference?
As I do not keep score on what the members have voted on, as I recall one contract was decided by the ALPA MEC and the members did not get to vote on it. Wasn't that the pension termination... Oh yeah. That was great. And that got us exectly what. Oh ya, a defined contribution plan.. Oppps... that's not working either so lets kiss that one goodbye to. And there was something in the recent past that did get voted on. Yes, no...did it really change anything. So if you vote yes you support the ALPA MEC and if you vote no you don't. Does so if I vote no that means I don't support the union?
As we have a hire date of 1986 we have always been on the bottom. Perhaps voting in the past for something was a personal choice. And there will always be those who agree and those who don't. I have no ability to change anyone's personal choice. Nor do I care to.
However, it now comes down to... Can a first officer on reserve make the same amount of take home pay working for McDonalds or for USAirways... Let me check it's getting close ......And at McDonalds you can get free fries..... a 401K and medical benefits... Who would have thought.....
Hopefully I will be back from my trip next Sunday night before they turn the lights out....
K
Is it possible the have a contract that pays a far wage for the responsibility given and have the Company make a profit. It appears that it is possible, as we have been shown by Southwest it is possible. So it is not really a question of if, its a question of how.
So how can U do it. Well perhaps management needs to show leadership and trust. Perhaps the union could be more flexable. Both could be more productive. But I think that the union hates management and vise versa... So much for teamwork....
I also want to state that I feel those in ALPA MEC represent themselves and their personal goals and objectives and not necessarily those of its members. Just as in all politics. I have never truly agreed with the decisions of the Union leaders. I don't think they think of those at the bottom but only at the top. What's in it for me. That's just people.
I personally feel that the Union vs Management process sometimes is not the most effective busines model. Not that unions don't serve a purpose I just think it changes the focus from planning together to plotting against. And thus leads us down our current situation. Bad managment and Bad Union leadership. Both are at fault. And without trust, leadership, and a plan the Company has no direction.
I do not think all unions serve the best interst of their members. Just as those in politics do not always serve the best interst of the people who voted for them. I also do not think that Managements goal at this Company is to see the employees as an asset but rather as an expense.
I just think the whole thing is broken. It sould have been fixed during the last Bankruptcy. Why can't they just thow out the current contract and start over. Re-invent the Company it's purpose, define it's customer -or market, and then put it together. You would think that after the past four years this could have been done???? Perhaps both sides are just a day late and a dollar short.
It is also my view, held by many, that the Company's management has no vision, no leadership, and has lied, cheated and stole (legally) money from the shareholders, Wolf and gang took millions not to mention DAVE. so who is Bruce (is it Bruce?? Lakefield) who really cares, will he make a difference, has any of the others?? Oh, that is the lack of Leadership. I'm sure he is probably a nice guy who was asked as a favor to Bonner to take on the job, and so here he is. But has he made a difference?
As I do not keep score on what the members have voted on, as I recall one contract was decided by the ALPA MEC and the members did not get to vote on it. Wasn't that the pension termination... Oh yeah. That was great. And that got us exectly what. Oh ya, a defined contribution plan.. Oppps... that's not working either so lets kiss that one goodbye to. And there was something in the recent past that did get voted on. Yes, no...did it really change anything. So if you vote yes you support the ALPA MEC and if you vote no you don't. Does so if I vote no that means I don't support the union?
As we have a hire date of 1986 we have always been on the bottom. Perhaps voting in the past for something was a personal choice. And there will always be those who agree and those who don't. I have no ability to change anyone's personal choice. Nor do I care to.
However, it now comes down to... Can a first officer on reserve make the same amount of take home pay working for McDonalds or for USAirways... Let me check it's getting close ......And at McDonalds you can get free fries..... a 401K and medical benefits... Who would have thought.....
Hopefully I will be back from my trip next Sunday night before they turn the lights out....
K
savyinvestor
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 494
- 0
The point is you said you were not a pilot. I rather be Mr. Magoo than a liar. Thats my point. Got it? Honesty says alot about a person IMHO. SavyEyeInTheSky said:
