Mechanics turn down the concessions.

[UAL24]

 

[wts54]

Im shaking in my boots.Take your thorazine please.

 

[wts54]

Press Release Source: United Airlines


Statement From United Airlines
Thursday November 28, 2:33 pm ET


CHICAGO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 28, 2002--United Airlines (NYSE:UAL - News) today released the following statement:
United Airlines and the United Airlines Union Coalition remain committed to achieving $5.2 billion in labor-related cost savings as part of our overall financial recovery program. While we are disappointed that United's mechanics have failed to ratify their tentative agreement, it's important to recognize that every other employee group - including two of the three represented by the International Association of Machinists - has either agreed to or ratified their contribution to the labor cost-savings component of United's business plan currently being reviewed by the Air Transportation Stabilization Board.

We intend to achieve the full labor cost savings included in our business plan. To that end, we are initiating immediate discussions with the leadership of the International Association of Machinists District 141M to develop contract modifications that will achieve the same savings level called for in the agreement that was not ratified this morning. Reaching our $5.2 billion target is essential if we are to secure federally backed loans and avoid a Chapter 11 filing.

United operates nearly 1,800 flights a day on a route network that spans the globe. News releases and other information about United may be found at the company's website at www.united.com.

 

[UAL24]

 

[UAL24]

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
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On 11/28/2002 1:00:37 PM mastermechanic wrote:

Couple of points quick because I have been ordered off the computer by you know who.
(1) We cannot do much about the IAM, but as you can see, they do not speak for the rank and file. They are a virus to this company and a plague to this industry, at this point I wouldn't care if the Salvation Army represented me. If you can in anyway help rid us of them, you have made alot of friends.
(2) If you can absorb a 67k cut, then something is very very wrong. You know it, I know it.
(3) If you could only grasp the hell it's been for the last 2 years Mancity, but all you say is "I'm sick and tired of the mechanics complaining" Our grievences have never been resolved. We've been in this same fight since the beginning. Do you realize I have not had a contract that wasn't "abrogated" for almost a decade and a half. This is not a union issue, this is a people issue. If Glenn Tilton and ALPA don't recognize that when you have people with over 15yrs+ willing to end their careers, their is something way more serious than a 9% paycut. Thats what you guys should be asking, and demanding answers. Your only response is we can leave. Do you think that makes us feel better. That all the effort to help build this house means nothing to those who use it for shelter, and now WE can leave.
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[/blockquote]


1) This was NOT a vote to get rid of the IAM! I FULLY support the mechanics having a professional union that contains JUST mechanics and speaks to their unique situations, but this vote was not that vote. This vote was to save the company...all of it. The AMFA vote comes AFTER we save the company so that you have something to bargain for in the future. If you think there will not be issues that arise during the life of these concessions that require negotiating, you are wrong. But would you rather have a union (ANY UNION) contract to protect at that time, or would you rather be working under a judges order? This is the WRONG fight at the WRONG time!

2)What makes you think I can absorb a $67K paycut? Do you honestly think I have an extra $5,500 per month lying around in my checkbook? Get a grip! That's the point! WE ARE ALL MAKING HUGE SACRIFICES! I am going to have to make some VERY difficult decisions in the very near future. I just recently made a lump sum payment to pay off my school loans, so that I do not default on them! I drive that sportiest of sports cars, a 94 Honda Accord. I just had to refinance my house in the hope that we can still make the payments, although the property tax alone might mean a move! As for kids and college?? We will just have to see!

What you seem to be missing is that the pilots are making HUGE concessions because we know that the ONLY airline worth working for is an airline NOT in Chapter 11! Once the company and the judge get together, all bets are off, and our collective futures will depend on which way the wind is blowing!

I still can't believe you actually thought I could absorb a $67K hit! Which pilots are you talking to? I know you are out in SFO, so maybe it is the 400 Captains in their last few years, but I can assure you, no-one is getting rich off the Guppy in ORD!

3) Where do you think we have been working the past umpty ump years? It has been no walk in the park for us, either. Want to talk about contract abrogations? How about illegal furloughs, changing our reserve system without ANY Section 6 negotiations, tearing up our scope clause as it relates to domestic flying, intl flying, number of aircraft, minimum number of hours per aircraft per day, number of RJs....the list is endless! But what can you do about it? GRIEVE IT! But, guess what, our esteemed MC decided to waive it all to keep the airline out of BK, and thus opened up the most difficult and expensive items we won in C2K! Happy?

You seem to think the company has had it out for you these past few years. They have had it out for us all! I realize that you do not have your retro yet, but that was the IAMs fault and the poor timing of when you all decided it was time to negotiate. The AMFA representation fight was poor timing then, and, if it is being used as a wedge now, is poor timing now.

We have ALL been through the wringer for the past few years. I seem to remember a few guys I know dying during 9/11, and in their memory, ALPA came together to collect almost a million bucks for their families. We are a family, and we WANT to enjoy the kind of extended family relationships that the ESOP promised. However, we are not going to do it at our expense, and this vote might well cost tens of thousands of UA folks a job, a livelihood, much sought after benefits, and in many cases a roof over their head. If you think this is the time for IAM to flex and say enough is enough, then there is nothing left to discuss. However, don't for one minute think that you have been getting dragged over the coals alone. We were along side you the whole way, but were just too bloodied and beaten up to be recognized.

On behalf of 10,000 ALPA pilots, I think I can safely say we feel like you have made a mistake that we will ALL be forced to pay for. We can only hope to see some renewed discussions to iron out the perceived problems in short order, or else we are all going to be faced with absorbing much more than we currently have on our plates.

mancityfan

 

[mastermechanic]

OK Mancity...we all vote yes, the ATSB grants the loans...and lo and behold the economy turns around. United adds flights...hurray, people are recalled...yeah...pilots get to jump seats meaning pay raises??? plus they have 4.5% raises yearly???? they're getting more than we're going to get???? and we are stuck with a contract till 2008???? And when the bills are due again around 2008, who is going to pay them???? Ahhhh, wait a minute...this is just a game right...you wouldn't do that to me would you????

 

[motnot]

[blockquote]
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On 11/28/2002 10:56:27 AM mancityfan wrote:

MM and Prechill,

It appears you are two peas in a pod, so I will addres you both at the same time.

You say (or someone in this thread did) that the aircraft flies itself on auto pilot. Wow! Such insightful thoughts. And what exactly does a Gate Mechanic do while the airplane is on the ground with no write-ups? Is he in the shop fixing parts or in the shack reading his Sun-Times, eating donuts and BSing with the guys?

I have never thought that being a mechanic was a glorious job, nor have I thought it was a job that was not worth something. I believe that, just like in almost every job in the world, the market place has a good idea what a job is worth and the people who do that job get about that much pay.

You seem to believe that pilots are overpaid. You are perfectly entitled to that thought. However, you seem to think they are overpaid because YOU, the mechanic, has installed a box by plugging together two plugs and affixing it to the aircraft with a screwdriver and so now YOU are flying the aircraft! Hope you are there next time the flaps won't come down, or the gear, or the autopilot wont engage! WHAT SHOULD I DO IF THERE IS NO MECHANIC AT FL370????? Dare I ever got to work without my trusty mechanic on the jumpseat? Footage at 11!! ...

Go in peace, and go far, far away.

mancityfan
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[/blockquote]

FYI, mancity, prechill is an ALPA pilot with another airline, not a mechanic. He simply is part of the reasonable faction. And during summer 2000, the UAL pilots were anything but.

So don't make assumptions about people simply because they disagree with you, and maybe you'll stop making yourself look bad.

 

[gatemech]

mancityfan,

I have noticed that your attitude and way of thinking has done a 180 since the beginning of the year. You used to write strong and bold post. Now I can see you are scared of losing your job. We all are. I see planes leaving in the morning cleaner than ever. It's just not good enough. For me this isn't about striking at the IAM. It is about how I expect to be treated as a human and an employee of UAL. Not a thorn in there side. You would be surprised how much cooperation they would get with a little kindness. It's just not the way UA wants to do business. I don't want a thank you every time I do something. I don't need doughnuts or pizza because I did a good job. I just want to do my job without the treat of being walked for doing my job. Till you have experienced this first hand don't hammer us for our decision on the ERP.

 

[aircraft_artificer]

Again it comes down to employer employee relations. This is something United management has not addressed. Until then, well....

 

[Bob Owens]

JFK777;
What is it about mechanics and their unions? At Eastern it was the mechanics that killed the airline.

You are jackass.

 

[Bob Owens]

GGPillow;
All I can say is DUH'

Well you got that right. Maybe thats all you should say. Otherwise what you are saying is flat out wrong. All the Judge can do is either abrogate the contract or say it stands, after certain conditions are met. Those conditions should not be that easily met with the company’s present offer. The Mechanics have good cause for rejection.
1) The mechanics just came to an agreement less than one year ago with United. The company agreed to those terms. This agreement took several years and the Assistance of the NMB and a PEB to be reached. Now less than 1 year into the contract they want to break the contract and get a six-year concessionary agreement put in place. If indeed the company can not fulfill its agreement the new agreement should be reviewed annually to see if the concessions are still necessary but in no way should it extend beyond the term of the original agreement. Six years is excessive, even more so because a six year agreement could easily be extended to an eight year agreement or more. The demand for a six year concessionary agreement, regardless of its source is onerous and given the fact that these workers worked under a concessionary contract from 1994 through 2001, the most profitable years in the industry's history, and that they did not share in the company’s prosperity, it is unreasonable for them to be forced to put themselves into the exact same position again just because of the companies present condition and the calculated rulemaking of greedy bureaucrats.
2) While the initial cut may have been quoted at 7% the fact is that at the end of the contract the mechanics will have realized a cut of at least 18%, plus another 3% per year after 2008 when the company drags out negotiations. The promise that the 2008 pay rate will be restored to today’s nominal rate does mean that their true rate of pay will be restored. The CPI has averaged at least 3% over the last 30 year period.
3) The company had the opportunity in the years 1995 through 2001 to open up the contract to allow the mechanics to share in the company’s prosperity. The company declined. As a result the mechanics suffered declining standards of living and longer workweeks while the company and the majority of the rest of the nation were enjoying historic levels of prosperity. The company then proceeded to drag out negotiations over an extended period of time to Capitalize on retaining the services of these mechanics at the discounted rates of pay for as long as possible. The agreement was finally reached under the direction of a PEB. Now less than one year later the company not only wants the mechanics to financially bear the burden of the companies present financial difficulties but they want them to agree to carry this financial burden for a period of time that could not only see a return to prosperity but the full completion of another economic cycle.

 

[Bob Owens]

mancityfan;
Is it true that even though the pilots took the lagest cut they will still be paid higher than AA's pilots? I see that the UAL mechanics would have been making several dolllars less than AA mechanics. Its obvious that UALs pilot salaries are not competative with AA's. I guess that you feel that the mechanics should be willing to make up the difference? They should agree to work for less than AA so you continue to make more than AA?

 

[GGpillow]

[blockquote]
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On 11/28/2002 9:31:28 PM Bob Owens wrote:

GGPillow;
"All I can say is DUH'

Well you got that right. Maybe thats all you should say. Otherwise what you are saying is flat out wrong. All the Judge can do is either abrogate the contract or say it stands, after certain conditions are met. Those conditions should not be that easily met with the company’s present offer. The Mechanics have good cause for rejection.

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[/blockquote]

I'll thank you kindly to not tell me what I should and shouldn't say. I'll also thank you kindly to pay attention to what I said. I agree, and have pointed out, that the judge will either say yes/no to an abrogation. Is that different from what you just said in reply? Keep hiding behind those certain conditions . You know damned well those conditions will be easily met.
MY POINT, which you either missed, or don't understand, is that, those who think this is going to be a big sit down session with Grandfather Judge, and that he is gonna give a rats ass about alpa, retro, amfa, the last contract fiasco, 6-2 rotations, or that so and so the supervisor doesn't treat me like I'm a person garbage, are mis-informed. It's great for folks like MM to think that this will be fair and equitable, equal damage to all parties, but it will NOT be.
My humble opinion, is that 141m just made themselves a bed of nails, and they may not like having to sleep in it. I think, at this point, it's gonna get a lot worse for 141m in particular, before it will get better.
In closing, don't misunderstand me and think I am pissed at a no vote. People need to make an informed decision, and, if someone looks at this, and the consequences, and still says no, then fine. That's life. What ticks me off is people using emotion as a basis to make a business decision. What ticks me off is that many in 141M seem to think the ch11 judge will be their savior. Those folks, are sadly mistaken.

It will be interesting to see what AMR comes up with as a concession package for you. I sincerely hope you aren't naive enough to believe that you aren't next, regardless of weather an agreement is reached, or we file ch 11.

 

[sastal]

[BR]Here we go again with the go get a degree and pay your dues malarkey I hear from every pilot. My best friend, a computer science undergrad and an electrical engineering grad school graduate does not earn what pilots do, and he is in Palo Alto designing satellites, not turning on autopilots.[BR][BR]One day, an A320 pilot compared his level of preparation and expertise as an aviator to that of a Doctor of Philosophy -- one of the most idiotic things I had ever heard (goes to show the level of egotism we are dealing with here)! The man obviously has no understanding of the title, and needs, among other things, an introduction to the amount of research involved in earning such a prestigious degree. Nonetheless, a college degree has no bearing on a pilot's salary and it is not even a requirement to become a pilot, although it is preferred. Everyone has a B.A. or B.S. today; it is a necessity if one wants a decent-paying job.[BR] [BR]The reason why pilots in the U.S. are paid so much is that they have a very strong union that literally shuts airlines down if it does not get what it wants (e.g. Contract 2000). There are pilots in other countries who are just as skilled in flying Boeing aircraft, and they are paid one third of what American pilots are paid. And if these pilots decided to shut down a company's operation, management would simply turn around and hire people from other nations (e.g. Alitalia with Varig and Quantas in 1993). Please don't give me the whole we have responsibility excuse. Certainly, a pilot's job entails that, but it does not warrant the kind of remuneration pilots enjoy. U.S. pilots should consider themselves very lucky and overpaid for the work that they do and for the amount of time that they work.[BR][BR]With that said, I think the mechanics really screwed this one up. I better start saving United paraphernalia for nostalgia's sake. [BR] [BR][BR]