Mechanics turn down the concessions.

[atabuy]

The reasoning the mechanics are spouting here puts me in mind of a large group attending a menoupause covention titled: Aim your anger at anything!
You have menoupause.

There is only two issues here to vote on. 4 days no pay for vacation and 7% pay reduction.

Everything else is for another time.

7% of base pay comes out to about $2.01 and hour. 4 days without pay is $1,120
2.01 x 2080 = $4,180 + $1,120 = $5,400.8

35 x 2080 = $72,800
7.3% x 72800 = 5,314.40

The biggest supporters of AMFA are the ones who don't get involved in thier own union and try to change the things within it. They sit and #### about everything and expect someone else to change policy.
I had a discussion with some mm's who were saying the union sucked. I asked why they did not run for the positions? Their response was they did not have the meetings to be eligible.

What they need is a good baby sitter who can change them and put them down when they get cranky.
As I said before, most of these guys would #### if they were hung with a new rope.

I know this isn't about money. You all have this pent up anger and want someone to notice it.
If it were about money, You would not turn this down and throw away 1200 shares of stock. Your retro, and seats on the board.
The shares represent a great upward potential by themselves. The retro is about 15,000 and seats on the board priceless.

This is about how immature people behave when they don't get their way.
And you want respect? Sorry. You have to earn that one. It is not anywhere in the contract laguage or, will it ever be.

 

[UnitedChicago]

Bob Owens:

I have just about had it with that lame claim by Carty that even with the paycuts, UA pilots will be paid a whopping 2%, oh yes...2% more that AA's pilots.

Well gee, doesn't that make sense since your pilots are still operating under an old contract? When was the last contract signed...when your pilots attempted to strike in 97?

So of course it would only make sense that UA pilots would still make a bit more because they are operating - albeit revised - under a contract signed in 2000.

Carty loves to through out that statistic...but it's meaningless. 2%. That's a joke.

Bob...why don't you just stick to the AA board. Especially in the crucial period, we don't need someone from AA over here.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to return the favor once UA is on it's way to a successful recovery and full attention is turned to AA's problems. Can't wait.

 

[jb]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 7:29:24 AM sastal wrote:

Here we go again with the "go get a degree and pay your dues " malarkey I hear from every pilot. My best friend, a computer science undergrad and an electrical engineering grad school graduate does not earn what pilots do, and he is in Palo Alto designing satellites, not turning on autopilots.

One day, an A320 pilot compared his level of preparation and expertise as an aviator to that of a Doctor of Philosophy -- one of the most idiotic things I had ever heard (goes to show the level of egotism we are dealing with here)! The man obviously has no understanding of the title, and needs, among other things, an introduction to the amount of research involved in earning such a prestigious degree. Nonetheless, a college degree has no bearing on a pilot's salary and it is not even a requirement to become a pilot, although it is preferred. Everyone has a B.A. or B.S. today; it is a necessity if one wants a decent-paying job.

The reason why pilots in the U.S. are paid so much is that they have a very strong union that literally shuts airlines down if it does not get what it wants (e.g. Contract 2000). There are pilots in other countries who are just as skilled in flying Boeing aircraft, and they are paid one third of what American pilots are paid. And if these pilots decided to shut down a company's operation, management would simply turn around and hire people from other nations (e.g. Alitalia with Varig and Quantas in 1993). Please don't give me the whole "we have responsibility" excuse. Certainly, a pilot's job entails that, but it does not warrant the kind of remuneration pilots enjoy. U.S. pilots should consider themselves very lucky and overpaid for the work that they do and for the amount of time that they work.

With that said, I think the mechanics really screwed this one up. I better start saving United paraphernalia for nostalgia's sake.


----------------
[/blockquote]


So let me see if I understand this...The fact that the mechanics voted this thing down is because they think the pilots earn to much money? Well if that's the case then they are not as bright as I would have hoped.

Your best friend....Is that what he wanted to go into? If so I would hope he researched what the job entailed so that he could make an informed desision before accepting it. It's like holidays and weekends. We all knew it was part of the job when we signed up so nobody should #### about working those days. Turning on autopilots....Not even going to lower myself to responding to that one.


college degrees...you are correct. A degree is not required to become a pilot. You can get your license at age 16. Know many college grads at that age? The company has the requirement of a college degree. It could be a degree in anything but the major factor behind a degree shows a certain level of maturity and ability to reason, understand, problem solve etc. That is what the airlines and most employers are looking for with a college degree.

Please don't compare your pay, my pay, or anyone's pay to that of a different country. That's like comparing apples with baked beans. Different countries have different costs of living, different taxation, different social services, etc. To try to compare is an exercise in futility.

Do we make good money? yes. Do we have a good union? For the most part, yes. Do I consider myself lucky to be in a job that I envisioned and prepared for since I was 15 years old. You bet! Do I consider myself overpaid? Absolutely not. I will not here, or ever feel a need to justify my pay to you or anyone. I don't expect anyone ever to justify their pay. Not actors, athletes, etc. You get paid what you get paid. If you are not happy with how you are compensated then go out and find another stream of revenue for yourself but please stop the pity party.

This whole thing is not about pilots vs. mecahnics albeit I don't think we're going to see a lot of respect for the mechanics for a long while.

This is about doing what is right to try and save this company. Everyone has pitched in. Some more than others. The point is that everybody has pitched in accept he mechanics. That is what the focus needs to be on. Not what I make, or your friend who isn't even in this industry makes or paying your dues, etc.

A quote that I have some might like is In a storm, pray to high heaven - but continue to row the boat to shore Did the mecahnics stop rowing?

JB

 

[wts54]

From a friend.

Put yourself in our shoes:We watched UAL management
squander billions of dollars of profits garnered as a
result of the wage concessions the top leaders of the
International Assoc. of Machinists (IAM) recommend we
accept in 1994. This was just as the industry was
entering an unprecedented period of expansion. All of
the wasteful projects undertaken and opportunities
missed are too numerous to list here but a couple do
warrant mention. 1) The decision to spend 800 million
dollars to 'buy back' outstanding shares of stock was
ridiculous—one share of stock today will get me a
decent breakfast in NY's Lower East Side
today-including tip. 2) Offering to pay $65 a share
for USAIR stock when the stuff was trading at $25-$30
and the top IAM leadership's complicity in this
arrogant, insulting scam. 3) Flushing 500 million
dollars down the toilet through the USAIR Integration
Teams. 4) Using unreliable old DC-10's in a
halfhearted gesture to fly freight only aircraft in
and out of JFK. The effort was abandoned after a few
months as being unprofitable. Continental Airlines
just completed a $ 25 million freight facility at
Kennedy and they don't even fly passengers in here!
The list goes on and on.
It should come as no surprise that the private sector
will not loan UAL any money as the same architects of
all the boondogles of the past are still here—with the
exception of Jim Goodwin & company who oversaw these
fiascos in the first place then piously predicted
UAL's collapse on their way out the door. When we
begged the IAM and UAL to allow us to sell our stock
when it was trading at $75-$90 a share we were told it
was a 'retirement plan' and were forced to hold on to
it. Now they tell us that selling it might be a good
idea. What financial adviser in their right mind would
ever recommend investing retirement money in airline
stocks?!!
So, we are neither dumb nor stupid-just angry. And if
they do squeeze out a yes vote it will only result in
even more resentment at having been robbed, yet again,
not at the point of a gun but from the tip of an ink
pen wielded by officials of the IAM, UAL. The U.S.
Government is also insisting on concessions before
giving more money to these bandits. We are not
responsible for the crisis in this industry and should
not give one more dime to the fools who are. If you
still don't understand then you probably have way too
much money to ever understand so I recommend that you
buy lots of UAL—it should be cheap today

 

[UnitedChicago]

Boomer:

Just used the word we to represent United employees and customers. Wasn't trying to speak for everyone.

I have no idea why the number of posts haven't changed or the time stamp.

 

[ual-crewdesk-man]

Look at the stock today. At one point it was down over 50%! I think if the
mechanics would have voted yes, the amount they (and everyone else)
would have gained in stock value would have off-set the pay reduction. It would
have shot through the roof today. Instead, it's in the sewer, again. It must hurt
to keep shooting yourselves in the foot.

 

[Boomer]

11/29/2002 9:48:15 AM

UnitedChicago-Member

Total Posts: 144
Last Post: 11/29/2002
Member Since: 8/27/2002
Member #: 600
Bob...why don't you just stick to the AA board. Especially in the crucial period, we don't need someone from AA over here.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to return the favor once UA is on it's way to a successful recovery and full attention is turned to AA's problems. Can't wait.
________________________________________________________

11/27/2002 2:40:17 AM

UnitedChicago-Member

Total Posts: 144
Last Post: 11/29/2002
Member Since: 8/27/2002
Member #: 600
...Oh and by the way...this isn't a bribe for UA union votes. I don't work for United...so don't think I'm trying to buy votes .
________________________________________________________

Who is we? And why is it that your number of total posts did not change even though the time date stamp subsequently did?

 

[jb]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 10:17:05 AM wts54 wrote:

From a friend.

Put yourself in our shoes:We watched UAL management
squander billions of dollars of profits garnered as a
result of the wage concessions the top leaders of the
International Assoc. of Machinists (IAM) recommend we
accept in 1994. This was just as the industry was
entering an unprecedented period of expansion. All of
the wasteful projects undertaken and opportunities
missed are too numerous to list here but a couple do
warrant mention. 1) The decision to spend 800 million
dollars to 'buy back' outstanding shares of stock was
ridiculous—one share of stock today will get me a
decent breakfast in NY's Lower East Side
today-including tip. 2) Offering to pay $65 a share
for USAIR stock when the stuff was trading at $25-$30
and the top IAM leadership's complicity in this
arrogant, insulting scam. 3) Flushing 500 million
dollars down the toilet through the "USAIR Integration
Teams". 4) Using unreliable old DC-10's in a
halfhearted gesture to fly "freight only" aircraft in
and out of JFK. The effort was abandoned after a few
months as being unprofitable. Continental Airlines
just completed a $ 25 million freight facility at
Kennedy and they don't even fly passengers in here!
The list goes on and on.
It should come as no surprise that the private sector
will not loan UAL any money as the same architects of
all the boondogles of the past are still here—with the
exception of Jim Goodwin & company who oversaw these
fiascos in the first place then piously predicted
UAL's collapse on their way out the door. When we
begged the IAM and UAL to allow us to sell our stock
when it was trading at $75-$90 a share we were told it
was a 'retirement plan' and were forced to hold on to
it. Now they tell us that selling it might be a good
idea. What financial adviser in their right mind would
ever recommend investing retirement money in airline
stocks?!!
So, we are neither dumb nor stupid-just angry. And if
they do squeeze out a yes vote it will only result in
even more resentment at having been robbed, yet again,
not at the point of a gun but from the tip of an ink
pen wielded by officials of the IAM, UAL. The U.S.
Government is also insisting on concessions before
giving more money to these bandits. We are not
responsible for the crisis in this industry and should
not give one more dime to the fools who are. If you
still don't understand then you probably have way too
much money to ever understand so I recommend that you
buy lots of UAL—it should be cheap today


----------------
[/blockquote]


You're correct in most you had to say. Unfortunately it has to be viewed as water under the bridge and we need to move on. What was done was done. Plain and simple. It can't be and won't be turned around over night.

 

[AirplaneFan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/28/2002 7:51:43 AM prechilill wrote:

One more thing. UAL ALPA deserves most of the credit for showing the other labor groups how to wreck United. The summer of 2000 worked wonders for them. They have shown how greed works, how screwing passengers works, how saying "no" to management gets results. So, for those of you thinking the IAM is the genisis of just saying no, think again. The mechs are just borrowing a page out of ALPA's playbook. Good job IAM
----------------
[/blockquote]

Now this I agree with. The pilots struck their own airline two years ago, got a whopping pay increase and set off a stampede of me-too's that realized the only way to get what you want is to ruin the airline to get it. Every time UAL said they couldn't afford it, employees refused to believe it, instead heaping abuse on management for breaking trust with them. Finally airline caved, moving themselves closer and closer to the edge of a cliff.

Now it might be IAM that finally pushes them over the edge, but IAM is not solely responsible for getting them to the edge.

Are flight attendants still wearig CHAOS buttons? That was a real comfort to flying passengers.

 

[Bear96]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 11:06:36 AM AirplaneFan wrote:


Are flight attendants still wearig CHAOS buttons?
----------------
[/blockquote]

No. We're just sitting on the sidelines these days, watching the pilots and mechanics destroy what's left of our company.

 

[sastal]

I am not a mechanic, nor do I try to explain why they turned down the agreement last night. Allow me to refresh the point about my college and grad school (European Space Agency and Notre Dame) friend: he is bright --extremely so-- and his analytical skills surpass that of any pilot I know (flying a plane at age 15 does not make up for intellect). He makes six figures, which is certainly not as much as UAL pilots will make until next year, and his pay scale is adequate for one with his capabilities; that of pilots at UAL, on the other hand, is not. And if you think one should not question the exorbitant amount athletes and actors make, then your priorities are in need of adjustment. Their payscales are an insult to all of us. With people suffering and dying of hunger on this earth, it is my business that people like Di Caprio make millions for looking cute on the silver screen, and Tiger Woods make even more by swinging at a ball. It is time for things to change; at UAL, many things will. And if one good thing comes out of all this, it is that I will not have to listen to the cockpit contingent gloat about who owns this airline.

 

[jb]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 1:35:46 PM ual747mech wrote:

Can anyone show the actual pilot's agreement so we can all see what they actually are giving up, what the terms are. That way we can compare each other's agreements if the pilots don't mind. I have seen the F/A's agreement and have nothing against their's. I have tried to look it up but it's not accessible anywhere. If anybody is interested to see our participation's terms its it's in www.iam141m.org.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Why is this about what the pilots are giving up?

FYI it's 18% off the pay scales that won't return to today's wages until 2008. There were a lot of other things in there too relating to RJ's and the like. It was by no means a good deal but was what needed to be done.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Bear96;
Good point.
I'm not a F/A, but I've always said you guys/gals were the brains on the UAL property(ESOP)!

Same over here at AA.
APFA was the ONLY union EVER, to bring Crandall back to the table Kicking and Screaming !!!!!

I'd give my eye teeth to have the solidarity that APA, and APFA have, compared to my weak sister TWU

Regards,
NH/BB's
AA/AFL-CIO

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/28/2002 7:39:36 PM motnot wrote:

FYI, mancity, prechill is an ALPA pilot with another airline, not a mechanic. He simply is part of the "reasonable" faction. And during summer 2000, the UAL pilots were anything but.

So don't make assumptions about people simply because they disagree with you, and maybe you'll stop making yourself look bad.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Oh, forgive me! My message has completely changed now!

I guess I will be hearing about the summer of 2000 until my last day at the airline! Once again, all together now, WE DID WHAT OUR CONTRACT TOLD US TO DO AND STOPPED DOING ALL THE EXTRA STUFF WE HAD BEEN DOING IN THE SPIRIT OF THE ESOP, LIKE FLYING OVERTIME ON DAYS OFF FOR 1993 PAY RATES. Hope that straightens out that?!

As for the looking bad, I will take my chances on this forum!

mancityfan

 

[ual747mech]

Can anyone show the actual pilot's agreement so we can all see what they actually are giving up, what the terms are. That way we can compare each other's agreements if the pilots don't mind. I have seen the F/A's agreement and have nothing against their's. I have tried to look it up but it's not accessible anywhere. If anybody is interested to see our participation's terms its it's in www.iam141m.org.