Mechanics turn down the concessions.

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/28/2002 6:01:47 PM mastermechanic wrote:

OK Mancity...we all vote yes, the ATSB grants the loans...and lo and behold the economy turns around. United adds flights...hurray, people are recalled...yeah...pilots get to jump seats meaning pay raises??? plus they have 4.5% raises yearly???? they're getting more than we're going to get???? and we are stuck with a contract till 2008???? And when the bills are due again around 2008, who is going to pay them???? Ahhhh, wait a minute...this is just a game right...you wouldn't do that to me would you????
----------------
[/blockquote]
MM,

Economy turns around, people keep jobs, the pay raises built into the ERP are paid, profits (should they ever rear their head at UAL) lead to increased stock value and profit sharing in the same proportions as the concessions. Airplanes are NOT coming to UAL until PAST 2005, so forget about the seat movement! Should we have ANY, it will be BACKWARDS from the sale of the 747-400s. The contract you are stuck with until 2008 is also the contract that I will be working under. It is the contract that will return you to being the highest paid mechanic in the industry, no?

You seem to think that the pilots are the root of your problems. I beg to differ. Your fractuous union is the root of your problems. Your inability to please anywhere close to half of the people in your union half the time, is the problem. Your relationship with the company is your problem. Your relationship with the ALPA BOD member, after stabbing him in the back for IAM dues from USAir is your problem.

However, the years I put in to become a pilot, and the pay I am about to give up to try and save a company I love and love working for, is NOT your problem. Those are MY problems. But I would not expect you to be able to discern the two.

Do you honestly think that the pilots are NOT giving the lion's share here? Get real!

mancityfan

 

[jb]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 1:12:25 PM sastal wrote:

I am not a mechanic, nor do I try to explain why they turned down the agreement last night. Maybe you did not get the point about my college and grad school (European Space Agency and Notre Dame) friend: he is bright, extremely so, and his intellect surpasses that of anyone I have met. He makes six figures (certainly not as much as UAL pilots will make until next year) and his pay scale is adequate for one with his capabilities; that of pilots at UAL is not. And if you think one should not question the exorbitant amount athletes and actors make, then your priorities are in need of adjustment. Their payscales are an insult to all of us. With people suffering and dying of hunger on this earth, it is my business that people like Di Caprio make millions for looking cute on the silver screen, and Tiger Woods make even more by swinging at a ball. It is time for things to change, and at UAL many things will. And if one good thing comes out of all this, it is that I will not have to listen to the cockpit contingent gloat about "who owns this airline".
----------------
[/blockquote]


You have a morbid fascination with your friend. That's what he chose to do. Great! I'm happy for him. If you are not a pilot, mechanic, etc, then where do you find the ability to comment on the wages that we make? That I would like to know. You also have a warped sense of reality if you think all UAL pilots are in the high 6 figure range. That is not true with the exception of some of the guys that have been here for 30 years. I'd love to know the basis for your argument.

So now you're out to save the world from hunger and poverty? If you don't like what actors/athletes, etc get paid then stay away from the theater and the stadiums. Don't buy the products that are shown on commercials during TV shows and games. Maybee you'll feel better. With that said...The russions tried communism before didn't they? Isn't that where everyone gets paid the same and the government will take care of everyone no matter what their position in life is? How well did that go over? Ever heard of Darwin and survival of the fittest? It's all part of life.

If you want a six figure income - go out and get one. Don't try to put down those that do.

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/28/2002 8:37:15 PM gatemech wrote:

mancityfan,

I have noticed that your attitude and way of thinking has done a 180 since the beginning of the year. You used to write strong and bold post. Now I can see you are scared of losing your job. We all are. I see planes leaving in the morning cleaner than ever. It's just not good enough. For me this isn't about striking at the IAM. It is about how I expect to be treated as a human and an employee of UAL. Not a thorn in there side. You would be surprised how much cooperation they would get with a little kindness. It's just not the way UA wants to do business. I don't want a thank you every time I do something. I don't need doughnuts or pizza because I did a good job. I just want to do my job without the treat of being walked for doing my job. Till you have experienced this first hand don't hammer us for our decision on the ERP.
----------------
[/blockquote]


I agree, all employees should be treated with respect, but this is not an issue for this vote, it is an on-going issue that should be addressed by your union every day. If the problem is bad enough to elect AMFA onto the property, then great. I think you should have a skills union, because (as I have said MANY times)UAL mechanics are the best in the industry...when they want to be!

However, the thought that I think these events are bad because I might lose my job are nonsense! I know I will lose my current fleet/seat, but that was a foregone conclusion. But losing my job as a pilot at UAL will mean tens of thousands losing theirs first, so I am not in a tizzy about that! It is the aftermath of the vote, the effect it has both psychologically on employees, the markets, etc... and materially n the lives and well-being of ALL UAL employees. I actually am concerned about OTHER people too, you know.

You are using the same blinkers you voted with to analyze my posts. I suggest you come up for air and survey the scene. You just dropped a tactical nuke. We will see if the company comes back with a strategic one, or whether they turn the other cheek for the sake of everyone else. However, I am not so sure the guys in DC are so forgiving, and you just ruined about 3 months of GOOD politicking on our collective behalfs.

Enjoy the holidays

mancityfan

 

[sastal]

 

[mancityfan]

On 11/29/2002 7:29:24 AM sastal wrote:

One day, an A320 pilot compared his level of preparation and expertise as an aviator to that of a Doctor of Philosophy -- one of the most idiotic things I had ever heard! The man obviously has no understanding of the title, and needs, among other things, an introduction to the amount of research involved in earning such a prestigious degree.

MANCITYFAN
Nah, I think you are missing the point! It is not always about the intelligence or depth of research, but sometimes it is about the TIME. The length of time it takes to become a major airline Captain is FAR greater than that to receive a Ph.D. Believe me, I know! Having done much of the work towards and contemplated the latter, and already accomplished the former, I know which is harder, and which has the economic payoff (or did!).

SASTAL
Nonetheless, a college degree has no bearing on a pilot's salary and it is not even a requirement to become a pilot, although it is preferred. Everyone has a B.A. or B.S. today; it is a necessity if one wants a decent-paying job.


MANCITYFAN
Once again, you missed the mark. A college degree DOES have a bearing on a pilots salary, as no college degree means no major airline job, which means a commuter job or other, which is usually much less lucrative over time. ANd, while the FAA does not require a degree, the airlines usually DO, especially in the tight markets we will face for the foreseeable future.

SASTAL
The reason why pilots in the U.S. are paid so much is that they have a very strong union that literally shuts airlines down if it does not get what it wants (e.g. Contract 2000). There are pilots in other countries who are just as skilled in flying Boeing aircraft, and they are paid one third of what American pilots are paid. And if these pilots decided to shut down a company's operation, management would simply turn around and hire people from other nations (e.g. Alitalia with Varig and Quantas in 1993).


MANCITYFAN
Replace pilot with ANY job in this country and the paragraph is the same! What's the point? The standard of living of pilots is FALLING. Has been for over a decade now. Even the pilot hating WSJ agrees! People live in other parts of the world on $100 per month. Would THAT suffice?!

However, as usual, you have taken your warped sense of reality just a hair too far. If you think that ALPA National (or the laws of the US!) will EVER allow an airline like UAL to fire all the pilots and replace them with low priced foreign nationals, then you have been reading too many comics!


SASTAL
Please don't give me the whole we have responsibility excuse. Certainly, a pilot's job entails that, but it does not warrant the kind of remuneration pilots enjoy. U.S. pilots should consider themselves very lucky and overpaid for the work that they do and for the amount of time that they work.

MANCITYFAN
Ooops, did I miss where contracts and standards of living are now determined by the Grand Poobah Of Sastal? Lucky, overpaid, underworked. I think you covered the Holy Trinity of Pilot Bashing...well done! Do you have anything remotely intelligent or original to say or are we back to the old diatribes?

How much do you pay for a cab ride from JFK to LGA? $28, I think it is! How much do you tip the cabbie? $3? $4?

How much do you pay the Captain of a 737 to fly you from ORD to LGA? $100? $75? $50? $25? $10? $5? Try $4.33 INCLUDING benefits, retirement, health insurance and all those other industry-crippling costs. Perhaps you would prefer the rate for a 350 seat 747 to HKG? $16.41 per passenger for a 16 hour flight, about A BUCK AN HOUR! Oh, CRIPPLING the airline industry those salaries are!

The FACTS are not quite so easy to dismiss, especially when you realize you paid more for the Starbucks and the newspaper before you got on the flight than you did for that overpaid, fatcat of a Captain to fly you from ORD to LGA this morning!


SASTAL
With that said, I think the mechanics really screwed this one up. I better start saving United paraphernalia for nostalgia's sake.


MANCITYFAN
Oh yeah, I forgot this was all about the mechanics and how they basically voted to bankrupt the company. What was all that stuff about the pilots again? $2.2BILLION of the $5.3 Billion in concessions? 20% cuts in pay and retirement? Giving up another 600 jobs? Agreeing to park another sh!tload of airplanes? Giving up ALL contract grievances filed based on Contract2000 abrogations? Giving up contractual pay protections? Giving up no furlough clause? Giving up scope clause and allowing UAX carriers to fly more RJs than were ever possible under C2K? Yeah, but what have they done for me LATELY?!

Over and Out!

mancityfan

 

[wts54]

here you go

18% cut now plus all the raises...


Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association
(ALPA) and ratified by the ALPA membership. The
agreement amends the United pilot collective
bargaining agreement (as amended, the Pilot
Agreement) to reduce the pilots' hourly pay rates by
18% effective the first day of the pay month following
the satisfaction of the aforementioned conditions (the
Effective Date) and to cancel 4.5% increases in
hourly pay rates scheduled for each of May 1, 2003 and
May 1, 2004. These increases are to be replaced with a
4.5% increase on November 1, 2004, a 4.5% increase on
May 1, 2005, a 4.5% increase on May 1, 2006 and a 6.9%
increase on May 1, 2007.

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/28/2002 9:42:46 PM Bob Owens wrote:

mancityfan;
Is it true that even though the pilots took the lagest cut they will still be paid higher than AA's pilots? I see that the UAL mechanics would have been making several dolllars less than AA mechanics. Its obvious that UALs pilot salaries are "not competative " with AA's. I guess that you feel that the mechanics should be willing to make up the difference? They should agree to work for less than AA so you continue to make more than AA?
----------------
[/blockquote]


Bob,

I don't know, Bob, you tell me! Seeing as how the APA pilots have been in negotiations with AMR for a few years now, I have no idea what their current offer is. I DO know that Carty has already offered them SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than UAL pilots would make, but they turned it down because he wanted to baseball style arbitrate the rest of the deal. Perhaps if they had received a new contract in the last five years, I could comment. However, I do know that we will be about 20% behind the one peer who HAS negotiated a contract recently.


Could you please tell me when the AMR mechanics got their contract, and how far inferior it was to UAL mechanics.? Then, could you ell me how much UAL pilots are giving up and how much UAL mechanics are being asked to give up? Until I can compare all the numbers, it is hard to make any comparisons at the moment.

However, perhaps the real question should be How much would be enough to satisfy Don and the boys in Dallas? I guess you will be over at the AA boards shortly telling them that they need to take paycuts to save their company too? I can only imagine the restless nights old Donny Boy is having over at DFW! AMR is a few dollars shy of filing and is throwing money out of the window faster than any airline in history. How is that TWA deal looking now? Anyway, come back with some intelligent questions and comments and we can talk more. However, comparing a 2002 deal with one from 1997 is NOT the kind of comparison that is worthwhile, especially since Don is still sharpening his axe!

Another of the problems is that there are VERY few aircraft that we BOTH fly. There is the 757/767 and the 777. AMR flies their 757/767 fleet with different pay rules than we do, and I think their 777 rates are comparable to UAL's and we are both lower than DAL. I am not privy to the details, so I cannot comment from a position of fact.

Look forward to more facts in the future.

mancityfan

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/28/2002 9:31:28 PM Bob Owens wrote:

GGPillow;
"All I can say is DUH'

Well you got that right. Maybe thats all you should say. Otherwise what you are saying is flat out wrong. All the Judge can do is either abrogate the contract or say it stands, after certain conditions are met. Those conditions should not be that easily met with the company’s present offer. The Mechanics have good cause for rejection.
1) The mechanics just came to an agreement less than one year ago with United. The company agreed to those terms. This agreement took several years and the Assistance of the NMB and a PEB to be reached. Now less than 1 year into the contract they want to break the contract and get a six-year concessionary agreement put in place. If indeed the company can not fulfill its agreement the new agreement should be reviewed annually to see if the concessions are still necessary but in no way should it extend beyond the term of the original agreement. Six years is excessive, even more so because a six year agreement could easily be extended to an eight year agreement or more. The demand for a six year concessionary agreement, regardless of its source is onerous and given the fact that these workers worked under a concessionary contract from 1994 through 2001, the most profitable years in the industry's history, and that they did not share in the company’s prosperity, it is unreasonable for them to be forced to put themselves into the exact same position again just because of the companies present condition and the calculated rulemaking of greedy bureaucrats.
2) While the initial cut may have been quoted at 7% the fact is that at the end of the contract the mechanics will have realized a cut of at least 18%, plus another 3% per year after 2008 when the company drags out negotiations. The promise that the 2008 pay rate will be restored to today’s nominal rate does mean that their true rate of pay will be restored. The CPI has averaged at least 3% over the last 30 year period.
3) The company had the opportunity in the years 1995 through 2001 to open up the contract to allow the mechanics to share in the company’s prosperity. The company declined. As a result the mechanics suffered declining standards of living and longer workweeks while the company and the majority of the rest of the nation were enjoying historic levels of prosperity. The company then proceeded to drag out negotiations over an extended period of time to Capitalize on retaining the services of these mechanics at the discounted rates of pay for as long as possible. The agreement was finally reached under the direction of a PEB. Now less than one year later the company not only wants the mechanics to financially bear the burden of the companies present financial difficulties but they want them to agree to carry this financial burden for a period of time that could not only see a return to prosperity but the full completion of another economic cycle.

----------------
[/blockquote]


Bob,

The judge listens, says Duly noted and then hits you with the hammer that the company has proposed he should hit you with! Does the IAM have a business plan that will get the company out of CH11? Do they have the ability to negotiate with the vendors and lenders who OWN this company? This is not a trip down memory lane, you know! This is a trip before a guy who is there to represent the interests of LARGE MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS that UAL owes BILLIONS OF DOLLARS (i.e. THEY OWN YOU, ME, AND THE FURNITURE!). If you think the Judge gives a rat's a$$ about your past grieivances and missed opportunities, I think you are in for a BIG shock.

This is the BIG TIME! This is not a PEB, this is not even a real negotiation. This is a trip before the guy who cares NOT about the individual, but rather the entity, and who's mantra is this is the way you WILL do it, because I am all knowing and have the power to do whatever I want. I hope someone did not forget to mention that to the guys in the break room!

By the way, there is an airplane that has been sitting on the lead in line for about three minutes waiting for you to turn on the stop lights. Anyone interested?

mancityfan

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 3:22:32 PM wts54 wrote:

here you go

18% cut now plus all the raises...


Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association
("ALPA") and ratified by the ALPA membership. The
agreement amends the United pilot collective
bargaining agreement (as amended, the "Pilot
Agreement") to reduce the pilots' hourly pay rates by
18% effective the first day of the pay month following
the satisfaction of the aforementioned conditions (the
"Effective Date") and to cancel 4.5% increases in
hourly pay rates scheduled for each of May 1, 2003 and
May 1, 2004. These increases are to be replaced with a
4.5% increase on November 1, 2004, a 4.5% increase on
May 1, 2005, a 4.5% increase on May 1, 2006 and a 6.9%
increase on May 1, 2007.



----------------
[/blockquote]
Funny, I have a 45 page booklet outlining what I am giving up and you showed one paragraph of it. I guess you guys are the only ones with technical issues like grieivances, contract abrogations, pay protections you are not getting, scope clauses that are being shredded and the like! I can't imagine why they sent me this video and a 45 page booklet if we could have found someone to edit it down to a few lines on a Web BB. What WERE we thinking?!

mancityfan

 

[mastermechanic]

Whew, Mancity you are one busy beaver buddy. I told you guys months ago what the feeling was among thousands of mechanics, and all you people did on this board is berate me, and got me kicked off for awhile. I believe you quoted it as loathing for mastermechanic. Who has been in denial??? You blame it on the IAM, then on AMFA nuts, then on whatever. ALPA left everyone behind and you know, the only thing is, the mechanics were the only ones to stand up to them. What does it take for thousands to commit career suicide? You and the company are STILL asking the wrong questions, and it's going to cost you YOUR career.

 

[sastal]

[P class=MsoNormal style=MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt][SPAN class=bodyfont1][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]My so-called fascination with my friend stems from my lack of self-centeredness. I could talk about myself, but five years at United taught me how annoying it is to listen to people who think they are the center of the universe. I attended the school I mentioned for six years, and I am on my way to earning an MBA from yet another private institution. I choose what I want to do based not on my future salary, but rather because I aspire to a fulfilling life. Also, in the spirit of my school’s mission, I believe that everyone has a right to basic human needs. If that makes me a believer in communism, then I guess Jesus, too, was a communist (what I said about the autopilot was a stretch, but your comment about communism and Darwin…). [?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice /][o][/o][/SPAN][/SPAN][/P][SPAN class=bodyfont1][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA]My father was a 747 pilot for Alitalia, so I have a good understanding of what you do and how much you are paid for the amount of work that you perform. Your salary does not bother me as much as having pilots rub this into my face and then claim to be on par with doctors, engineers, and especially PhDs (as I said, flying a plane at 15 is no substitute for intellect). As for theaters and stadiums, I do not frequent them because movies and sports are not what they used to be. [SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN][/SPAN][/SPAN]

 

[mastermechanic]

CHICAGO -(Dow Jones)- Even the most optimistic analysts now see little chance that UAL Corp. (NYSE:UAL - News) , parent of United Airlines, can get the financing it needs to avoid a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing next month.
ADVERTISEMENT


But analysts and industry experts said Friday that United - and its employees and shareholders - face a troubled future whether or not the company is forced into bankruptcy.

In a surprise vote, the airline's mechanics this week rejected labor concessions that constituted the final piece in the airline's plan for financial recovery.

Relations between labor and management at the nation's number two airline historically have been fractious. But David Stempler, president of the Air Traveler's Association, a Washington, D.C., advocacy group, said that the mechanics gave management a thumb in the eye on Wednesday by voting down wage concessions after other employee union groups, including pilots and flight attendants, had agreed give back wages and benefits. He said even if mechanics change their minds later, an underlying feeling of disharmony will remain.

The company has said it needs to cut $5.2 billion in costs over five years to qualify for a federal loan guarantee from the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, the organization formed in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks to give airlines financial aid.

Even before the mechanics voted, most analysts believed that the business plan United has presented to the ATSB won't be convincing enough to get the $1.8 billion in loan guarantees the airline had requested.

In its most recent public statement Nov. 6, the ATSB asked United for more detailed information on a number of cost projections, as well as further explanations of its revenue assumptions.

Stempler said the mechanics dissenting vote not only gives the ATSB one more reason to reject United's loan guarantee application, it also shows that labor troubles will likely continue to crop up whether or not United reorganizes under Chapter 11.



.

 

[mastermechanic]

You know when I talk to people they are incredulous with what happened, until I explain the story. Then they cannot believe what UAL has done, and they understand.

 

[Bear96]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/29/2002 5:08:16 PM mastermechanic wrote:


CHICAGO -(Dow Jones)- ...other employee union groups, including pilots and flight attendants, had agreed give back wages and benefits...
----------------
[/blockquote]

For the record, the F/As have not yet ratified their concessionary TA. The ratification process is currently going on and continues through noon tomorrow (Saturday) EST. Hopefully results will be available shortly after that.

 

[mastermechanic]

BTW...I did a timing belt and water pump on a Accura and a brake job on Nissan Sentra....little over $500 day in my drive way. Guess I can eat one more day