MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE - May 19, 2007

[PITbull]

As you yourself said - if the company needs ratification. There are lots of possible futures that can result from the East's "trump card".

At best, for the East pilots, future growth goes to them. They advance, make Captain, the furloughees all come back, life is swell.

At the other end, East withers on the vine over 5-10 years as far as the pilot's are concerned. New airplanes, growth, advancement - all go to the West pilots while the East pilots attrit themselves out of existence.

Which course the future takes is in Doug Parker and Jerry Glass' hands. The East pilots may think they hold the trump cards, but they're hoping to draw to an inside royal straight flush and thereby win all the chips. Problem is, Parker owns the house and Glass is the dealer. As you well know, Glass is perfectly willing to deal from the bottom of the deck to get the outcome he wants.

Jim

Jim,

I don't see your scenario for the East. The East operation is where the profit will be made for the airline.
If Doug Parker ignores this, and stifles the growth on the East, the compeitition will eat the entire airline out of existence. Doug and Jerry aren't going to gamble with the shareholders on merely a hunch, beat the odds, hoping to pull royal straight flush.

If anything, the East pilots can impact any "capital" the company would need to grow the west.

 

[exB717Flyer]

WOW! Your former TWA and would make a statement like that? Astonishing and sounds like something that would come from an AA employee.

I'm furloughed from TWA as well. There's no irony here. Had TWA gotten the same deal from AA as Nicolau awarded we'd have been very happy indeed (every active pilot slotted). Every merger is different so there's no one-size-fits-all integration strategy. Those crying the mantra of DOH are failing to consider that sometimes DOH means a windfall for one group. Of course, you're free to disagree with Nicolau's reasoning but just like my opinion it's irrelevent.

 

[700UW]

You have to remember the arbitration was an internal ALPA matter, not an arbitration against the company.

 

[PITbull]

I'm furloughed from TWA as well. There's no irony here. Had TWA gotten the same deal from AA as Nicolau awarded we'd have been very happy indeed (every active pilot slotted). Every merger is different so there's no one-size-fits-all integration strategy. Those crying the mantra of DOH are failing to consider that sometimes DOH means a windfall for one group. Of course, you're free to disagree with Nicolau's reasoning but just like my opinion it's irrelevent.

DOH is more fair. Can't GIVE someone equal weight when they didn't put in the years of service to slot in above someone else with more years of service. Just because a pilot got hired with a small carrier and was at Captain's pay flying that equiptment would no way be close to fair to give him 5-10 years just to ensure he flies in Left position to keep a captain's status. Where the pilot who sits in that seat gave the years of service to the company.

IMO, the pilots could slot in 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 if that would work. I don't know what the ratio is but that would be more fair than stapling someone at the bottom who has 8-15 years of service or more.

 

[Bear96]

Bear,

No doubt, the ruling is binding, however, outside of this ruling, there is a merger negotiations at hand. And guess what? East pilots will have the upper hand on whether they will ratify any tentative merger agreement.

Being that this ruling has a direct financial effect on about 1700 East pilots (West having about 1500 total active pilots) there is nothing to compell the East to ratify and merge the operation whereby the ruling may never go into effect.

If there was not a merger negotiations in progress, then I would agree that the ruling would definitely go into effect. But, this is not the case in this instance.

Could be. My interest in all of this really only extends to the legal effects of the arbitration award. Of course there are ways to play negotiating games. The question may very well come down to how much the East pilots are willing to sacrifice in other areas, just to try to avoid the Nicolau list actually being implemented.

If they choose a route of intransigence, were I management, I would respond by making sure all future growth gets directed to the West side and let the East wither away. What is the stat on how many East pilots will be retiring in the next few years? Seems like East could make itself irrelevant as it first stagnates and then shrinks away to nothing, while West grows.

 

[Bear96]

Jim,

I don't see your scenario for the East. The East operation is where the profit will be made for the airline.
If Doug Parker ignores this, and stifles the growth on the East, the compeitition will eat the entire airline out of existence. Doug and Jerry aren't going to gamble with the shareholders on merely a hunch, beat the odds, hoping to pull royal straight flush.

If anything, the East pilots can impact any "capital" the company would need to grow the west.

PITbull, I don't mean to speak for BoeingBoy, but it seems we are thinking along the same lines. We are not saying LCC would "stifl[e] growth on the East" if you mean not adding more flights in the Eastern part of the U.S. If LCC decides there is profit to be had by adding routes in the Eastern part of the U.S., of course LCC would do that. But it would be staffed by the West. THAT is how West would grow while East would stagnate, with no impact to the route structure.

For example, West pairings could start looking like this (not all in one day, of course):

PHX-PHL-ORD-PHL-MCO-LGA-PIT-CLT-DCA-BOS-PHL-PHX.

Meanwhile the East bid sheets shrink and shrink.

Alternatively, would anything in the East CBA prevent management from starting up a second pilot crew base at PHL, and making it a "West" base? How about shutting down PIT completely, making it look like a "natural" death because there just isn't enough flying out of there to support it, but then reopening it as a West base the next month after "reevaluating" it?

There are probably all sorts of creative things management could come up with, should the East choose to drag it into the fray.

 

[Bud8EE]

PITbull, I don't mean to speak for BoeingBoy, but it seems we are thinking along the same lines. We are not saying LCC would "stifl[e] growth on the East" if you mean not adding more flights in the Eastern part of the U.S. If LCC decides there is profit to be had by adding routes in the Eastern part of the U.S., of course LCC would do that. But it would be staffed by the West. THAT is how West would grow while East would stagnate, with no impact to the route structure.

For example, West pairings could start looking like this (not all in one day, of course):

PHX-PHL-ORD-PHL-MCO-LGA-PIT-CLT-DCA-BOS-PHL-PHX.

Meanwhile the East bid sheets shrink and shrink.

Alternatively, would anything in the East CBA prevent management from starting up a second pilot crew base at PHL, and making it a "West" base? How about shutting down PIT completely, making it look like a "natural" death because there just isn't enough flying out of there to support it, but then reopening it as a West base the next month after "reevaluating" it?

There are probably all sorts of creative things management could come up with, should the East choose to drag it into the fray.

Bear,

You forget the East contract is more lucrative(cheaper) for management than the West's. Where would Doug and Jerry put the flying? Where it costs less! A situation the West has to deal with if they go Section 6 alone. This whole situation is a management dream served ala ALPA.

Bud

 

[Bear96]

Bear,

You forget the East contract is more lucrative(cheaper) for management than the West's. Where would Doug and Jerry put the flying? Where it costs less!

At some point management may just determine that East intransigence against permitting a complete integration of operations is costing so much in the way of lost efficiency, it negates any supposed savings from the cheaper East contract (assuming you are correct that the East CBA is cheaper -- I am not familiar enough with the details between the East and West CBAs to know that). It may cost a bit more in the short term to use the West CBA, but if it puts sufficient pressure on the East to break the logjam, it may very well be worth it from management's point of view.

Alternatively, if you are saying East will be happy to spend the next 10-20 years with no pay increases or any other contractual improvements (as USA320pilot seems to be willing to do, based on his idea of fences lasting that long), then sure, management would probably save money that way too. Perhaps they wouldn't realize some benefits in the way of efficiencies in a totally integrated operation, but if the East pilots are so stubborn that they refuse to negotiate anything for a decade or so while other pilot groups are negotiating improvements and raises, that would probably work for management too.

In any case, it seems that the East MEC (if USA320pilot's representations of it are accurate) has an over-inflated sense of its power and negotiating position here. Sure the East MEC can come up with different ways to throw its temper tantrums and try to make everyone miserable, but management can come up with equally creative ways to combat them if necessary.

This whole situation is a management dream served ala ALPA.

Bud

You are correct about that. The more the East screams and carries on and shows how divided the most expensive work group is, the happier management gets.

 

[Bud8EE]

At some point management may just determine that East intransigence against permitting a complete integration of operations is costing so much in the way of lost efficiency, it negates any supposed savings from the cheaper East contract (assuming you are correct that the East CBA is cheaper -- I am not familiar enough with the details between the East and West CBAs to know that). It may cost a bit more in the short term to use the West CBA, but if it puts sufficient pressure on the East to break the logjam, it may very well be worth it from management's point of view.

Alternatively, if you are saying East will be happy to spend the next 10-20 years with no pay increases or any other contractual improvements (as USA320pilot seems to be willing to do, based on his idea of fences lasting that long), then sure, management would probably save money that way too. Perhaps they wouldn't realize some benefits in the way of efficiencies in a totally integrated operation, but if the East pilots are so stubborn that they refuse to negotiate anything for a decade or so while other pilot groups are negotiating improvements and raises, that would probably work for management too.

In any case, it seems that the East MEC (if USA320pilot's representations of it are accurate) has an over-inflated sense of its power and negotiating position here. Sure the East MEC can come up with different ways to throw its temper tantrums and try to make everyone miserable, but management can come up with equally creative ways to combat them if necessary.
You are correct about that. The more the East screams and carries on and shows how divided the most expensive work group is, the happier management gets.

Why would management ever want to end a whip saw situation?

There may be no raises in the way of contractual enhancements but anything that group(combined) could get will not offset the raises that come with upgrade(35%), moving up to larger equipment, holding a line vs reserve plus the QoL issues that come with gaining seniority. It's a bad situation all the way around, but it isn't hard to see how they are better off going it alone. Obviously they feel there is no such thing as a National union and who can blame them for resisting a National merger policy. They are just the first group that supporting ALPA has no direct benefit that any other union could provide. Without consitant polocies and national seniority it all just boils down to every individual group vying for whatever they can get and supply and demand. People can bring up Cabotage and all kinds of arguments for why ALPA is so great but whether it is age 65 or Cabotage, they have no ability to stop public policy. Heck the 50 retired CAL 777 Captains going to work for Jet Airways for $18,000 a month based out of JFK could probably tell you the better deals are over seas. It all has to do with supply and demand.

The only way to combat the free market is to create policies that unify an profession, control the flow of labor, and stifle the voice of the individual plus keep pilots from being their own worst enemies. Piltos and ALPA just don't get it though but the lack of forsight when the industry deregulated in 78 has been bearing much fruit for the last 6 years and this event is just going to be another hard lesson learned.

 

[luvn737s]

Jack Stephan is doing irreparable harm to the credibility of the east pilots with his scorched earth policies. Furthermore his ranting and raving makes the east into nothing more than cartoon characters which diminishes their service and sacrifice over the years. If I were an east pilot I would mount an immediate recall of this guy before he can do any more damage.

Leading is honorable. Pretending to lead is unconscionable.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thanks, Bear - I went to bed buy you covered my thoughts pretty well.

For PITbull's question - yes, the East network could continue to operate/grow as could international - it just wouldn't be the East pilots taking part in that growth if the worst case for them came to pass.

For Bud8EEE - As I've said a few times in other threads - don't assume a slightly less expensive contract is the same as a less expensive pilot group. East pilots are nearly 100% TOS, not West. That affects DC pension payments, etc. East is an older group, which affects medical costs, etc.

Jim

 

[N924PS]

700,

I think the East pilots have an argument that must be made, regardless, the arb. ruling is in conflict with the ALPA merger policy.


We'll see tomorrow if ALPA National agrees with this statement.

What will the ALPA MEC do if Prater and the EVP say:

"Ladies and Gentleman of USAirways. The Nicolau Award complies with ALPA Merger Policy and we can take no action to modify or overturn this binding arbitration. Thanks to both the USAirways and America West MEC's for your presentations today."

"Enjoy the rest of your day."

 

[BoeingBoy]

Can't GIVE someone equal weight when they didn't put in the years of service to slot in above someone else with more years of service.

So you're saying that if an East pilot with 18 years of service can't hold a Captain's position then no pilot in the industry with less time should hold a Captain position? Any pilot who does has somehow gotten a windfall at the East pilot's expense and should be knocked back so that the East pilot can assume his rightful place in the order of things?

Jim

 

[Bud8EE]

Jack Stephan is doing irreparable harm to the credibility of the east pilots with his scorched earth policies. Furthermore his ranting and raving makes the east into nothing more than cartoon characters which diminishes their service and sacrifice over the years. If I were an east pilot I would mount an immediate recall of this guy before he can do any more damage.

Leading is honorable. Pretending to lead is unconscionable.

In talking to East pilots, they seem pretty unified over this. I think he is doing exactly what his constituency is demanding of him. You can't fault him for that, its his job. This whole situation stems from a flawed national association with flawed policies. Seniority and its rewards are the fundamental tenet of any union, or you would have individuals cutting their own best deals at the detriment of the group. Is it any wonder why the AFA, CWA, or many other union have a DOH policy. Its the only one that doesn't or wont create cat fight between groups. Seniority is earned one day at time, a principle we all hold dear at our individual carries, and merging based on longevity is the only system that takes a person age into account.

I happen to fly a 4 engine aircraft and could easily adopt the mindset that I should go ahead of any 2 engine pilot in a merger, but that is an "all about me attitude" that would only serve me short term but at the detriment of the profession and maybe me directly but certainly indirectly via the profession long term, not that I have long to go fortunately. Most pilots were probably taught by their parents or at some other point in their life the value of leaving something as well or better off when borrowing it.

Sadly pilots either forget that lesson or just don't care. One only has to look at their expected pension benefit or compare their paycheck to 25 years ago to see if business as usual has or is working. Knowledge of a failed strategy has been the case since deregulation but rather than address it, ALPA hopes for the best with fingers crossed or comes up with buzz words like "pattern bargaining" and "career expectations." Or they swallow their principles for the sake of the union dues gravy train and invite former union busters back in with open arms and let them hold representative and committee positions. No principle involved, just what ever is easy or expedient. When one airline begins negotiating away 40% of the wages and retirement benefits, is it really a "local issue"? Thats what you heard the muckety mucks at National say because the finances were bad and heaven forbid the revenue stream from another 6000 or 8000 members go away. What a crock, a 3 year old could see there is no such thing as a local issue in such a competitive industry where management views labor as an adjustable cost and the structure of the National union plays right into it. You'll never see the National officers or the BOD touch a political issue like this. They will just accept losing the union altogether or the damage such disunity will bring. They might not get re-elected, heaven forbid in a volunteer orginization no less. The sad thing is, real leaders like David Behncke and the men of the 30' s and 40's are spinning in their grave and most of the leaders since were riding their coat tails until 1978 and those since have had their heads buried in the sand.

Maybe if pilots had a real union and treated each others as true brothers and sisters you could gripe at the East pilots for their stance. Maybe when union brothers are truly willing to take care of their own and pilots are forced to work together through corporate decisions and no choice of his own his years(seniority) in good standing with the Union might count for something. Maybe when policies are clear and spell out before hand what is to transpire instead of bringing lawyers to the mix and creating a powder keg because it takes a 4 year old to see the conflict of interest, there will be the unity many preach of. When you look in the mirror and see that the structure of ALPA is a "I've got mine" and "dog eat dog" mentality just on a larger scale than pure individuality and pilots do something about it, maybe things will change. It's sad when other trades like carpenters and electrician walk off airport job sites to honor pilot picket lines, and other ALPA pilots go right onto work like they did with CAL, EAL, UAL, NWA, or Comair. And to add insult to injury when it doesn't work out like EAL, to bad so sad. No way one of the co#ksu%&ers come over ahead of me, that was and is the prevailing attitude. That is what you would have heard if any thought of earned seniority and National seniority rights had been expressed on behalf of TWA, Braniff, Eastern, Pan AM or any of the other now defunct airlines. Heck, truth be told, many of the pilots at the airlines that enjoyed growth at EAL's plight probably talked joyously in the crew room about growth and upgrade rather that the human suffering of their "union brothers". Maybe when the pilots unions structure themselves in a way that is truly communal and act provide the ownership and stability to promote the group against the voice of the individual, you won't have a disaster like this. Maybe when ALPA get its head out of the sand instead of desperately clinging on to what is left Behncke's coat tails, airline pilots will start setting aside their short term greed and thinking long term and taking care of everyone, things will change. Until then, if you expect human nature(which is to act to take care of yourself when no one else will) to change tomorrow, which it won't and never will, pilots are just ****ing into the wind. Under the current structure, the East pilots are just protecting their own, because no one else, especially ALPA.

 

[luvn737s]

And using an ALPA Code-A-Phone to promote the activites of those trying to oust ALPA, seems like it crosses the line.

Are the east pilots so arrogant that they think the Teamsters are going to welcome a group that has tacitly promised to scab another unions work in the event of a strike?

Prater will see he has no standing in theis case and it will be a landmark example of why you need to negotiate in good faith rather than assuming you can rely on overconfidence to drive the outcome of binding arbitration.

The rule of law will always trump mob rule. Jack Stephan, CALL YOUR OFFICE!