MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE - May 19, 2007

[oldiebutgoody]

Gee another lame attempt at a jab.

First of all I am not with US, and I was a stock clerk. Lavs have been outsourced.

And does not matter what your job is or your classification for someone to take the time and educate yourself and take classes on the above mentioned topics.

Do you think you have to be a pilot to be intelligent and educate yourself?

Binding Arbitration and Union Elections are clear in the laws of the land, if you pilots took the time to educate yourself maybe you would actually understand them.

Binding Arbitration is BINDING, is that too hard to understand? Both sides presented their cases and the East probably did a very bad job to lose like it did.

My mistake, I apologize. Morale is not as bad as I thought, since legal experts don't service lavs, they're stock clerks. And, apparently, the legal department has been outsourced.

There is not a precedent here for ALPA, so I think that anything is possible. I do know that I've NEVER seen a more questionable decision in any arbitration that I've read concerning merger contracts. I will say that the fact that ALPA has only allowed each side 30 minutes to present any sort of arguments does not look good for an appeal, but that they probably have a mechanism to allow a really bad decision to be thrown out or sent to another arbitrator for reexamination.

I'll go now and let you continue to espouse your legal advice to anyone that needs a stock clerk, I mean lawyer, to explain how everything in the legal world is always spelled out in black-and-white.

 

[700UW]

Let me try this again,

Whatever someone does as a job at an airline does not matter if they become a union rep, take classes and educate themselves on the RLA, Arbitration and other relevant issues.

Funny, I guess your ALPA East Lawyers did a bang up job, didn't they?

I have taken many classes on the RLA, Arbitration, Grievance Handiling and other issues.

You dont have to be a lawyer to understand BINDING ARBITRATION.

Arbtitration is PRECEDENT SETTING.

I have represented many IAM Members during my time as a rep, gotten many out of trouble, participated in many third steps and been to a few arbitrations.

Funny the big IAM Arbitration cases were presented by former Airplane and Ground Equipment Mechanics and we won, the HMO, 401K and Airbus Outsourcing. They were not presented by Lawyers. Lawyers were consulted and helped in the preperation of the cases, but they were presented by the IAM Representatives.

See when you know you cant post something factual you have to try and resort to a personal attack, you lose all your credibility when you take that tactic.

 

[Bud8EE]

Remember the company can go to the NMB and ask for the mediation process to start and you have to abide by the NMB schedule of negotiations.

If you fail to bargain in good faith, there can be ramifications. An impasse can be declared a 30 cooling off period imposed, then you can be free to strike, unless a PEB is declared makes its investigation and recomendation and if you fail to ratify it the President can go to Congress and have your CBA legislated and imposed, all of this legal under the RLA, this has happened numerous times in the railroads.

So better becareful when playing with fire you can get burned.

Only the WEST is past the amendable date of their agreement. The EAST has another 2 years I believe on the current CBA and will not hit the point for mediation, 3-4 years from now at best. With the attempt to replace the ALPA with the Teamsters or an in house union , it could be longer as certifying a new union will impact things. That still does not force the pilot group to ratify an agreement and with the EAST under their current agreement, which is the best deal going for management, do you really think a few years from now when it is ammendable they would make that petition or lock them out after a cooling off period. Their current EAST agreement is a gift to management and sadly it seems to be a better alternative for the East guys than the Nicalou award. The West will probably move on an enter section 6 talks on their own the company and this will also push things even further out and the EAST will go through the same gyration and all the while the company will continue to operate with two groups. It's lucrative for them to do so.

 

[Bear96]

It's no wonder that morale is so low at LCC. All of their legal experts are servicing lavs.

Even the government has procedures for appealing arbitration decisions. It may be rare, but it happens. As complex as the aviation industry is, ALPA would be STUPID (and I'm not saying they're not) if they don't have some mechanism to counter poor decisions by arbitrators that don't understand all of the implications of their decisions, as it sounds may have happened here.

Although 700UW's general legal knowledge may be rudimentary, he has been generally correct about the binding nature of an arbitration such as this one.

Parties are free to agree (beforehand) that an arbitration decision will not be binding and will be appealable. But here the parties (note, not ALPA, but THE PARTIES, i.e., the East and West MEC's, if I understand the history correctly) agreed to BINDING arbitration.

ALPA as a body above the East and West MECs doesn't have much say in a case like this, and it seems as though its own constitution and bylaws legally obligate it to defend the arbitration decision should it be challenged.

 

[exB717Flyer]

If ALPA doesn't think experience warrants higher pay/benefits/priveleges then why should the airline companies, or any other for that matter?

If a senior captain quits and goes to another airline s/he starts at the bottom. That's the cold, hard fact of a seniority system, and ALPA can't change it. Furloughees get recalled to the bottom of the list as well.

As a bystander, it appears to me that there is obviously a windfall to one group, as I see nothing but demands that the award be implemented,...

Have you read the Nicolau Award? You say there's a windfall yet you don't substantiate it. There's no windfall here, just the harsh reality of unrealistic expectations.

I gotta admit, I find it hard to fathom that if what I read is correct that guys with AW who were with the company less than 6 months were placed in the seniority list ahead of guys that were never furloughed and at US for more than 18 years is ludicrous.

What is "seniority"? Is it defined by how long you've been at a company or by how many pilots are senior/junior to you? One might say that a USAir '86 is very senior but unfortunately he wasn't senior enough to avoid being furloughed! You're looking at one piece of the equation (DOH) and ignoring the rest (how much seniority one has). In 2005 the most junior USAir pilot was a 1986 hire. How much seniority did he have? Zero, since every flying USAir pilot was senior to him. That's the seniority that Nicolau entitled him to keep in the integration.

If you'd like to read the Nicolau Award yourself (instead of relying on anybody's opinion) just PM me and I'll zap it to you. It's a 5MB, 76 page PDF.

 

[Phoenix]

...Lavs have been outsourced...

There are a small number of east (former bitter east) employees that seem to be cheerleaders for the award.

I get it now. You got dumped.

 

[700UW]

Lame attempt at humor, I was not dumped, apparently you cant comprehend either.

I was not Utility when I parted with US, I was in the Stores Dept as a Stock Clerk.

Left for greener pastures, more money and a pension.

 

[Mr Furlough]

exB717Flyer;

"What is "seniority"? Is it defined by how long you've been at a company or by how many pilots are senior/junior to you? One might say that a USAir '86 is very senior but unfortunately he wasn't senior enough to avoid being furloughed! You're looking at one piece of the equation (DOH) and ignoring the rest (how much seniority one has). In 2005 the most junior USAir pilot was a 1986 hire. How much seniority did he have? Zero, since every flying USAir pilot was senior to him. That's the seniority that Nicolau entitled him to keep in the integration."


That's just ridicules. And I understand that it works well for you and bad for me for the moment. The sole purpose of the seniority system is to prevent companies from bringing in one person or groups of persons ahead of existing members. That's why you start at the bottom and work up the list in a numerical sense. The young often don't have families to provide for thus are better positioned to take a furlough. While the longer standing members have already had there turn in the junior barrel and thus chronologically graduate to more stability.

The system was NEVER designed to place younger, less tenured pilots ahead of longer term ones. Allowing for 18 year veterans to absorb the next round of furloughs while the younger kid enjoys job protection that the old man is now providing.

I understand your position for relative seniority. If I'm in your shoes, I'm most likely beating that drum as well. But I hesitate to say that, as in the future another merger awaits. And that one just might spell trouble for those who hang their had on relive seniority.

Best,

 

[BoeingBoy]

There are a small number of east (former bitter east) employees that seem to be cheerleaders for the award.

I get it now. You got dumped.

As opposed to those East pilots who want to take what others have, and dump what they have endured in those other's laps???? :down:

Jim

 

[wopr21]

Only the WEST is past the amendable date of their agreement. The EAST has another 2 years I believe on the current CBA and will not hit the point for mediation, 3-4 years from now at best. With the attempt to replace the ALPA with the Teamsters or an in house union , it could be longer as certifying a new union will impact things. That still does not force the pilot group to ratify an agreement and with the EAST under their current agreement, which is the best deal going for management, do you really think a few years from now when it is ammendable they would make that petition or lock them out after a cooling off period. Their current EAST agreement is a gift to management and sadly it seems to be a better alternative for the East guys than the Nicalou award. The West will probably move on an enter section 6 talks on their own the company and this will also push things even further out and the EAST will go through the same gyration and all the while the company will continue to operate with two groups. It's lucrative for them to do so.

I have to wonder if this was the company plan all along. They knew somehow how Nic would rule. Thats why they have ben so silent. It is a windfall for the comany too, in regards to economic synergies for the combinded company. Keeping it separate is best for both east pilots and management. So be it.
wopr21

 

[philly rocks]

It's not over until the fat lady sings!

Support your east pilots and be THERE, no matter what !

 

[AWA320]

It's not over until the fat lady sings!

Support your east pilots and be THERE, no matter what !

Dumb and a waste of time.

 

[N905TW]

That's just ridicules. And I understand that it works well for you and bad for me for the moment. The sole purpose of the seniority system is to prevent companies from bringing in one person or groups of persons ahead of existing members. That's why you start at the bottom and work up the list in a numerical sense. The young often don't have families to provide for thus are better positioned to take a furlough. While the longer standing members have already had there turn in the junior barrel and thus chronologically graduate to more stability.

The system was NEVER designed to place younger, less tenured pilots ahead of longer term ones. Allowing for 18 year veterans to absorb the next round of furloughs while the younger kid enjoys job protection that the old man is now providing.

With all due respect, seniority means nothing if you do not bring a JOB to the table.

I was furloughed in the past, so I feel your pain, and do not wish this post to be a slam to you or anyone else who has had to endure a furlough. I do understand just how rough that is. In my case, I picked myself up and started over back at my old commuter, once again earning food stamp type F/O wages, before coming out west to AWA.

To be realistic and put this in perspective, if AA were to merge with CO/UA/DL/AS etc tomorrow, where would I expect to be on the combined list based on my AA "seniority" number? I am quite certain that I would be below ALL WORKING PILOTS, and would expect nothing more. I am not currently flying for AA, so why would I expect to be on a list above someone who currently does have a job?

 

[beachboy]

WOW! Your former TWA and would make a statement like that? Astonishing and sounds like something that would come from an AA employee.

 

[BoeingBoy]

With all due respect, seniority means nothing if you do not bring a JOB to the table.

A noble sentiment, that "what I brought to the merger is all I should expect from the merger". Unfortunately, shared by all too few. Most seem to approach mergers caring only about what they can get out of it at someone else's expense....

Jim