MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE - May 19, 2007

[BoeingBoy]

That's cute!

Thanks, I have a "cute" moment now and again.

I assume you know that there was a decision rendered by Nicolau.

What - all this fuss isn't over what type of Four Points Pie to serve next?

And in this decision he decided to place all AAA furloughees at the bottom of the seniority list-even though hundreds had already been recalled.

You're new to this, huh. If you weren't still wet behind the ears, you'd know that the arbitrator deals only with the official lists as of the PID. Has nothing to do with what happens between the PID and the implementation of the combined list. You got recalled - doesn't matter cause it wasn't reflected on the official lists.

So let's review, take a breath, ok ready?

Always, but I'm not the one stroking out over 1 number...

alright-an 18 year pilot from the east, with 14+ years of "active" service WILL take a furlough ahead of a two year guy from AWA.

You would be furloughed ahead of the guy 1 number ahead of you no matter who it was - unless you both got furloughed at the same time. Do you have anything new, or just more recounting the obvious??

You still with me old man?

Oh - say that again, I think I dozed off for awhile....

Ok, good. What makes YOU so special?

Apparently the distinction of being the only pilot in the world that never looked at a merger and wondered how it would benefit me. On the other hand, I see a lot of East pilots (say, with 14 years longevity and recently recalled) demanding be ahead of a 757 Captain.

Why don't we dissolve YOUR years of service and let YOU be the one to take it in the shorts the next time the music stops and there are not enough chairs? Sound ok to YOU?

Oh, that's right - just having been recalled you don't deserve to be on the bottom and furloughed again "if the music stops". Funny, isn't that exactly where you'd be if this merger never happened?

What makes YOU so special.....

Jim

 

[flypg]

Exactly - a lot of handwringing over what might happen. One guy says "If everything works out just right, I'd have X" while another says "But if it worked out this other way, you'd only have Y". So the solution seems to be "If I can't have it, nobody can" - burn the place down and nobody gets anything.....

Now if you want to spend an evening discussing the foibles of ALPA over beers, we can attempt to solve all the problems. As far as I'm concerned, though, ALPA is in a symbiotic relationship with the pilots - way too many only care about what's best for them and too few care about what's good for the profession if it means sacrifices for themselves.

Jim

Jim.....You have been wise and very sharp. However, I cant believe I find you on this side of the fence.....If anything, Nicolau and or ALPA must realize attrition. In five to ten years top, ex-AWA pilots will inherit the WHOLE airline, wide bodies and all.....Arbitration is binding. But, even binding arbitration has rules, namely the five bullets points. Nothing fences, conditions and restrictions could not take care of.
Clearly, to me this award is so far off the mark that it warrants all the effort to right the wrong a senile man came up with. No matter what, ALPA must and most probably will go.

 

[PITbull]

Bad example, PITbull - a flowthru would have the PDT guy coming into mainline at the bottom of the mainline list. A better example would be a merger between US and Mesa. Should a 30 year Mesa CRJ Captain expect to step into an A330 Captain job just because he worked for Mesa 30 years? If Mesa has 100 CRJ Captains with over 28 years, should the 27 year 364 day US guy (who was next in line for A330 Captain) wait until all 100 of them are A330 Captains before he gets a shot at it?
If that's what you think this award does, you're greatly misinformed. If the 18 year East pilot can hold Captain, he can still hold Captain. No one is bumping him out of it just because of the combined list.
And I suspect that that is all most East pilots are looking at. That pilot may have dropped 700 numbers, but the combined list doesn't take anything away from him - he can still hold the job he held on the East list. There's more people in front of him because the number of jobs available increased.
Jim

I am not claiming to know the entire award's effects and how the merged list will impact the east and west. I'm only expressing an opinion from those who have explained it to me. If their argument is misinformation then time will prove otherwise.

I know what a combined list would have done to the f/a group if it were not the AFA policy DOH. I'm not talking about f/as. What I specifically am NOT saying is that an East pilot should replace a west pilot and eliminate his job, nor a west eliminate an east. What I am saying is that if the west pilot has 15 years of service, he should slot in to what he can hold bringing in all the 15 years he has. If that means he loses his captain position, then perhaps there should be a negotiation to grandfather the west pilot in pay if that could be a possible negotiation (which I bet wouldn't happin), otherwise, he loses his left seat in the merger.

I'm not talking about senior pilots of 20 + years here who usually never are effected in these kinds of mergers (unless you are TWA). I'm just giving you an example of a pilot at 23 years who dropped 700 numbers. If this is how many numbers a pilot drops at 23 years, How kind of effect would it have with those between 10 and 15 years?

I think you get my point even though you didn't like the example. You say a "flowthrough" would have the PDT coming at the bottom... that was not the point of the example. I was only expressing a hypothetical to explain my point. How the wholly-owns are handled currently in your contract or bylaws is not relevant to the "example" I was giving.

 

[Mr Furlough]

Thanks, I have a "cute" moment now and again.
What - all this fuss isn't over what type of Four Points Pie to serve next?
You're new to this, huh. If you weren't still wet behind the ears, you'd know that the arbitrator deals only with the official lists as of the PID. Has nothing to do with what happens between the PID and the implementation of the combined list. You got recalled - doesn't matter cause it wasn't reflected on the official lists.
Always, but I'm not the one stroking out over 1 number...
You would be furloughed ahead of the guy 1 number ahead of you no matter who it was - unless you both got furloughed at the same time. Do you have anything new, or just more recounting the obvious??
Oh - say that again, I think I dozed off for awhile....
Apparently the distinction of being the only pilot in the world that never looked at a merger and wondered how it would benefit me. On the other hand, I see a lot of East pilots (say, with 14 years longevity and recently recalled) demanding be ahead of a 757 Captain.
Oh, that's right - just having been recalled you don't deserve to be on the bottom and furloughed again "if the music stops". Funny, isn't that exactly where you'd be if this merger never happened?

What makes YOU so special.....

Jim

You slant the issue with what ifs. Ok, IF the merger never happened I might enjoy the attrition facing the pilot group in the east. But lets try and be real. The merger is in the works, and you are actually advocating reverse seniority. Oh, that right, you call it fair slotting.

I'm not special, and obviously my career as an ALPA pilot hasn't been either. Some here call it a bad choice, some say it's wrong. Now that I know that you feel that it's completely alright to ignore what the individual pilot has contributed to the party I like you even more. Because you are cut from the same cloth as so many greedy pilots that have stepped on my shoulders before. In essence, I know who you are, and what I'm dealing with.

"Someday kid, you'll enjoy the seniority and accolades that I have...that's how it works!?!" Not. With your encouragement Jim, I will gladly burn it to the ground.

Got Marshmallows?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim.....You have been wise and very sharp. However, I cant believe I find you on this side of the fence

I'm on the same side of the fence I've always been on - the side that just wants my position on the combined list to let me hold what I could hold on the separate list. No more and no less. That's always been the definition of a fair merger to me. I've never felt that I should be able to look at someone on the other side who has more than I and use some measure of "entitlement" to claim what he has, nor should he be able to look at what I have and claim it should be his. After all, what happens with one's career after being hired is purely the luck of the draw. Should I be penalized because his luck was bad? Should he be penalized because my luck was bad? Why not just accept the cards we've both been dealt and move on.

If anything, Nicolau and or ALPA must realize attrition. In five to ten years top, ex-AWA pilots will inherit the WHOLE airline, wide bodies and all....

I keep seeing that, and frankly it's not true. I suspect most East pilots don't even know how many vacancies will be created by attrition this year, much less 5 or 10 years down the road given the uncertainties in this industry. And isn't that all that matters - how many opportunities for advancement are created, not the absolute number for attrition? Yet the word "attrition" is thrown around as if it is some sort of guarantee. It's not...

No matter what, ALPA must and most probably will go.

I'm no great lover of ALPA (despite doing committee work for my last 17 years), but as I've said several times, be careful what you wish for.

Jim

 

[PITbull]

BoeingBoy,

That's cute! I assume you know that there was a decision rendered by Nicolau. And in this decision he decided to place all AAA furloughees at the bottom of the seniority list-even though hundreds had already been recalled. So let's review, take a breath, ok ready?...alright-an 18 year pilot from the east, with 14+ years of "active" service WILL take a furlough ahead of a two year guy from AWA. You still with me old man? Ok, good. What makes YOU so special? Why don't we dissolve YOUR years of service and let YOU be the one to take it in the shorts the next time the music stops and there are not enough chairs? Sound ok to YOU?

Your post above is how it was explained to me. That is why I take the position that the East MEC have no choice but to use whatever leverage they have to not have this ruling implemented.

 

[ClueByFour]

Wrong presumption. I was recalled in December of 06. That's a job. We are not yet merged. Still care to furlough me ahead of the two year guy at AWA?

Yeah. That was post-merger.

It's not personal--that's not bringing a job to the merger. It's a post merger job.

 

[prechilill]

Jim, I will gladly burn it to the ground.

Got Marshmallows?

Mr. Furlough,
Are you serious when you claim you will gladly burn it to the ground?

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

I will gladly burn it to the ground.

You are about 5 years late to the party. Let's substitute "burn it to the ground" to "highest pay til the last day".
Talk is cheap. The hyperbole is old. Nothing new to say. Cliches are great for "Wings Suds and Spuds" .
What exactly do you mean when you say "I will gladly burn it to the ground"?

 

[Busdrvr]

I'm no great lover of ALPA (despite doing committee work for my last 17 years), but as I've said several times, be careful what you wish for.

Jim

The Union is only as strong as it's members. An USAir pilot complaining about ALPA is like a drug dealer complaining about crime in his neighborhood from the front porch of his crackhouse.

 

[Mr Furlough]

Mr. Furlough,
Are you serious when you claim you will gladly burn it to the ground?

Let me put it this way, as I don't trust you and I really don't want the FBI banging my doors down! ; I would never do anything to harm anyone. However, as to this Nicolau award, I would rather return to my second career than to except this award. I survived 4 years of furlough working outside of the flying business, and I'm certain I can do it again. I would honor a walk off, a shut down, a slow down, desertification of ALPA, and any other peaceful protest to stop the implementation of this award.

Think about it, usairways goes out of business. Just think about the backfill that awaits. That's more opportunity than I have by excepting this award.

 

[luvn737s]

I would honor a walk off, a shut down, a slow down, desertification of ALPA, and any other peaceful protest to stop the implementation of this award.

Fortunately, none of these strategies will stop the implementation of the award.

Think about it, usairways goes out of business. Just think about the backfill that awaits. That's more opportunity than I have by excepting this award.

[/quote]

So, give us a list of the other airline groups who have successfully pulled off what you threaten?

 

[Mr Furlough]

Fortunately, none of these strategies will stop the implementation of the award.
So, give us a list of the other airline groups who have successfully pulled off what you threaten?

Do your own homework.

 

[LCC_#1]

Does ALPA have a DOH policy? Has ALPA traditionally supported decisions from binding arbitration? If the first answer is no and the second is yes, East pilots don't stand a chance.

I know I'm just a stupid f/a, but ALPA may want to look at what happened with AFA when the AWA flight attendants went whining to AFA national to try and change the DOH merger by-laws. They were shot down and if I were a betting man, I would bet the same will happen to the East MEC. You can't blame them for trying.

 

[luvn737s]

Do your own homework.

I'll take that as a "none".

Every day that passes, the cooler heads will prevail leaving only an island of vindictiveness. That island will shrink as the tide of reality comes in and folks realize it's not the end of the world. When that happens, a spit of land will emerge on which those are tired of their own rhetoric and who want to build a better airline can join the rest. Those that don't will dig up the land bridge and cut themselves off, hurting only themselves.