Man the lifeboats...............

[Frank Szabo]

I was with you until you used the tired old lame phrase above.

Some people want to actually improve the company from within. You are not leader material with that paradigm.

That one small sentence was what set me on the warpath as well - the management types never learn.

 

[eolesen]

On a more serious note.....the guys I just mentioned above can care less if you make it or not.....they just want your business. Trust me!

I spent enough time around Arpey and Reding to know you're full of crap when you make statements like that.

If anything, when someone like you appears to be so blinded by contempt, ignorance or hatred (maybe all three?) for their company's leaders, can you really wonder how someone might question how objective you are at doing your job?...

 

[Bob Owens]

I thought it was all about working hard and the United States being "the land of opportunity"..my dad came to the United States with only $10 half a century ago. He worked the day he landed. Except for weekends, he has worked 6-7 days/week and 14-16 per day for the past 50 years. He still works every weekends, even though he's in his 70's and can retire and set his own work rules and hours. I can't recall this past 1-2 generations where unions have espoused such a hard work ethic.

Too bad you didnt inherit your fathers work ethics either.

1)Simple, I have been following this board for a while and I wanted to make some comments/opinions. Last I recall, this is an "airlines/aviation forum" and is open to people who so wish to discuss about airlines and aviation

3)Recently joining this website is rather irrelevant, especially considering I'm a "veteran" on many other boards.

I'll bet Pops didnt spend his working days surfing internet sites to show off his arrogance and superiority.

Arpey was born with a Silver Spoon in his mouth, his father was an Airline Executive. So he spent a Summer throwing bags, probably got the job ahead of someone who really needed it, as a favor from one of his fathers golf buddies, thats hardly working your way through college,How does the saying go, "Dont go bragging about a home run when you started on third base"?

Nobody here is saying that we should live like Arpey, but in reality Arpey should be living like his father, not like John Rockefeller. Even saying he should live like CR Smith is a stretch because Smith built the company, Arpey walked into his CEO spot with a prebuilt company, it was number one at the time. He is a manager, a hired hand. He has let the company slip to number three, not that I care, but instead of accepting responsibility he blames us and wants us all to work more for less. He wants us to sacrifice so he can achieve his goals. All I expect is to not end up at the end of each year with less money per in real terms than when I started. If AA can not do that then I'm better off to see it liquidated, the assetts sold then maybe work for whoever buys those assett, and we all know that somebody will fly the millions of people that AA once flew.

 

[eolesen]

Silver spoon? You really go out on a limb at times, Bob.

If he was so privileged, why did he get his degree from the Univ. of Texas, and not some place like Harvard or Yale?.... Why did he even have to work summers if he came from money?...

Please. Stick to Bobonomics. You sound so much more credible making up statistics than you do trying to slander the CEO.

 

[Mr Red]

Silver spoon? You really go out on a limb at times, Bob.

If he was so privileged, why did he get his degree from the Univ. of Texas, and not some place like Harvard or Yale?.... Why did he even have to work summers if he came from money?...

Please. Stick to Bobonomics. You sound so much more credible making up statistics than you do trying to slander the CEO.

Get ur.... Facts straight BOBS RIGHT !!!!

 

[strikeforce]

I spent enough time around Arpey and Reding to know you're full of crap when you make statements like that.

If anything, when someone like you appears to be so blinded by contempt, ignorance or hatred (maybe all three?) for their company's leaders, can you really wonder how someone might question how objective you are at doing your job?...

Have you spent 20+ years around AA to realize how "F" up management is???? I don't think so buddy!!

So, because YOU spend time around people I place in the same catagory as Frank Lorenzo, I'm supposed to be impressed.

maybe you kneel and kiss Arpey's ring, but I don't, and won't. I don't hate American Airlines....I hate the greedy bastards at the top that find it acceptable to lavishly enrich themselves at the expense of the peons at the bottom that eat crumbs. Ditto that for our elected officials in Congress, White House and Springfield...along with our great leaders of the TWU.

You can question me all you want.....but, I know my job. There are no grey areas in aircraft maintenance......it's definitely something you don't know anything about. You stick to doing numbers, and I'll stick to fixing airplanes.

 

[737823]

Too bad you didnt inherit your fathers work ethics either.

I'll bet Pops didnt spend his working days surfing internet sites to show off his arrogance and superiority.

He's not showing off with arrogance or superiority. Just sharing his perspective (which I whole heartedly agree with) about organized labor

Arpey was born with a Silver Spoon in his mouth, his father was an Airline Executive. So he spent a Summer throwing bags, probably got the job ahead of someone who really needed it, as a favor from one of his fathers golf buddies, thats hardly working your way through college,How does the saying go, "Dont go bragging about a home run when you started on third base"?

Even if that was true why do you get upset over it? It's no secret that people with money and connections share opportunities with their friends and relatives. Perhaps Arpey isn't the most bright person or most effective leader but you still need to be respectful towards your leadership.

Josh

 

[Bob Owens]

Silver spoon? You really go out on a limb at times, Bob.

If he was so privileged, why did he get his degree from the Univ. of Texas, and not some place like Harvard or Yale?.... Why did he even have to work summers if he came from money?...

Please. Stick to Bobonomics. You sound so much more credible making up statistics than you do trying to slander the CEO.

Are you saying that the University of Texas is an inferior school?

Do you think its unusual for well to do people to have their kids work for spemnding money? I remember working for Triangle Aviation one Summer, the owner lived in Hewlett Harbor, of course nobody was supposed to know who he was, but everybody did, but he had his son throwing bags over the summer as well.

Slander? I'm just going off stuff thats been put on the web , usually by his fans.

 

[Jacobin777]

<_< ------Jacobin 777,------- When is the last time you put your livelihood on the line?------ These people do it every day!!! What's that worth to you? ------- Come on! Put a number on it!!! Did you know if these people screw up, people get killed!!! ----- Put a number on that smart ass!------- I've been retired over three years now, and the FAA can still , fine me, put me in jail, and revoke my license, if they find something wrong with an Aircraft I worked on!!! When I, or any other AMT, signs off work on an aircraft, that paper stays with that aircraft until that aircraft goes to the bone yard, no matter who owns it.------ There are aircraft flying around that are more than fifty years old!!! FAA can still come back to you at any time. There are no statute of limitations in the Airline industry!!!------- What is that worth? Come on!-----Total it up! Put a number to it!!!---------- Oh yea! next time you fly on United, or SW, don't forget about all those South American unlicensed workers, who don't speak, or read, English, that haven't been tested for drugs, and are paid $ 2.00@hr.,that have just got done installing the landing gear, and flight controls, on the aircraft your flying cross country in! --------- Thank God for all those Union workers that designed, and built, redundancy into that 777 aircraft at Boeing!!!

Simple, some of the drugs which I've helped develop are used in critical care medicine. A lot of my co-work, which has been published in a number of scientific journals (such as Shock, Journal of Critical Care Medicine, etc. are reference by drug companies (since they were ones who supplied our funds for Phase studies).

If a drug company gets an FDA-approved drug based on bad/compromised data I provide and later proves to be a disaster, well, I have to live with it. There is something about intellectual honesty and integrity - irregardless of pay. Last I recall, I wasn't union either.

Apropos, nice to use childish comments such as "smart ass" to address people. Such troll. 🙄

As for number 1, I don't recall anyone telling you not to come around and post. You are correct, free for all to visit and post. After all, you are a veteran of the boards.

And number 2, yes Jacob, without my concessions, airfares would be higher throughout the industry. Other airlines did it through BK and of course AA did it through the TWU. So yes, not only am I subsidizing your fares, all employees throughout the industry are as well.

Finally Jacob, maybe you need to retake "econ 101" if you are voluntarily paying more for the same service. And it's my understanding that our service is some of the worst. If that is indeed the case, you might need more than just an econ class!

1)There are people here questioning me as to "what are you doing here?", "why all of the sudden", etc. Not too "welcoming" shall I say?
2)Market forces is what is adjusting your salary. As you have stated, other carriers did it for their employees via BK. AA took another route. Maybe it was the correct route, maybe it wasn't. Time will tell. One thing for sure, AA as of July 19, 2011 hasn't "dumped" their pensions. This is costing AA hundreds of millions of $$$ in free cash flow.

Unfortunately, you, amongst a few others just don't seem to get it. You have every right to make an opinion, I respect that. Unfortunately, facts have proven your opinions otherwise.

There is a reason why union membership is < 10% in the United States (according to wikipedia). Like the black and white tv and betamax vcr, unions had a very important place in history and have contributed to working improvements not only in the USofA, but throughout the world. Like the black and white tv and betamax vcr however, they are no longer as useful or needed in 2011.

What a despicable comment. I don't think he is saying he supports AA destroying the morale but rather supports AA in making the changes and reforms necessary to return to sustained profitability which is your interest and the interest of all other AA employees.

Thanks 737823, this is exactly what I'm saying.

Well you're doing us all a favor by not using D2 and D3 passes. If you're so unhappy flying AA and decide not to that's your prerogative. Being molested isn't how I describe my interactions with the TSA but rather inexperienced, unprofessional, uninterested and incompetent better describe my experiences. Many are truly clueless about working with the general public let alone security procedures are more concerned about when they take lunch break then paying attention to the passengers. Spend sometime at BOS, EWR, or JFK and you'll quickly see what I'm talking about.



Couldn't be further from the truth. It's more like the airlines have little pricing power and consumers are unwilling to pay more in order to fund you pay increases and other contract demands.

Josh

Once again, you are correct. It practically the same thing I've been stating (getting a bit of flack for it though).

Why does it matter why he is here? I imagine like me, he travels a lot for business and enjoys commercial aviation. Many finance and investment professionals like myself often enjoy researching, discussing, and evaluating different of view and sources of information. Unlike others on this board generally we're willing to engage with people who we may not agree with but can entertain their view points.

Please be respectful to the other posters. I remember I didn't receive the most warm welcome when I came last year but have enjoyed contributing to the discussion.


Josh

Thanks Josh, my sentiments as well. I love aviation on a multitude of levels. I enjoy chatting with others who have knowledge on the subject. From the photography to the physics and everything in between. I've made a number of friends originally solely based on aviation. My wife thinks its a bit "geeky" however...

I was with you until you used the tired old lame phrase above.

Some people want to actually improve the company from within. You are not leader material with that paradigm.

Can't please everyone. Truth be told, that was the option I was given. Sometimes there isn't the possibility or ability to improve a company from within. Best to leave, and that's what I did. Was it tough when I first started out? Sure, who likes to work 17-18 hours day every day? No fun working at 2:00 a.m. on a Friday or Saturday. Looking back the past 7-8 years however, I'm glad I did.

Welcome aboard Jacobin777 don't let the disgruntled employee posters turn you off. The more I read your posts the more I like them. I think you bring a nice balance and fresh perspective to this forum.



My sentiment exactly.



But remember AA isn't so bad after all since many of their employees are the most expensive and least productive (not all work groups)

Josh

Thanks. I appreciate it! Hopefully I'll be able to contribute positively to this forum.

737823, I feel pretty confident Jacob is fully capable of speaking on his behalf. As a matter of fact, he has already demonstrated such.
How about you respect other folks conversations and not butt in. <_<

Nothing wrong with having someone who shares many of the same (or different views) state their opinions. Quite common.

That one small sentence was what set me on the warpath as well - the management types never learn.

Again, can't please everyone. Everyone's situation is different and unique. As I previously mentioned, there are some situations where one cannot change the company. It happens quite a bit actually in the business world.

Too bad you didnt inherit your fathers work ethics either.



I'll bet Pops didnt spend his working days surfing internet sites to show off his arrogance and superiority.

Arpey was born with a Silver Spoon in his mouth, so he spent a Summer throwing bags, probably got the job ahead of someone who really needed it as a favor, thats hardly working your way through college, his father was an Airline Executive. How does the saying go, "Dont go bragging about a home run when you started on third base"?

I guess working 10-12 hours/day (currently) is what one calls "a poor work ethic". So was going to grad. school while working- that's a "poor" work ethic. Maybe I should include that waking up every day at 4:00-4:30 a.m. to start work is a "poor" work ethic as well. Go figure... 🙄

I can't recall showing any form of arrogance or superiority either (which is different than being sardonic-I'm a fan of Mark Twain). Maybe you can point to it?

Arpey still went to college, put his "dues" in. He didn't become the current CEO of AMR by luck.

There are thousands of people who started with nothing (or from a very poor family) and wound up at the top or who did well through nothing but sheer hard work and will.

Unlike other countries, in America, people have choices.

Regards.

 

[Bob Owens]

He's not showing off with arrogance or superiority. Just sharing his perspective (which I whole heartedly agree with) about organized labor

Birds of a feather ,,,,,

Even if that was true why do you get upset over it? It's no secret that people with money and connections share opportunities with their friends and relatives. Perhaps Arpey isn't the most bright person or most effective leader but you still need to be respectful towards your leadership.

Josh

Upset? Respectful? Like he is towards us? Jacking up our Medical by 500% on top of massive pay cuts, then turning around and spinning information to seem like we are still earning too much? Making promises he didnt keep? Respect has to go both ways. All he has to do is give us our money and we can help make him even richer. SWA understands the concept, pay fewer people more money and it costs less. If we cant make it on 40 we can earn what we need by pulling it to the hangar instead. So they save $20k a year per head, but they pay more heads and their planes spend more time on the ground. The art of troubleshooting is something that's not captured in the textbooks of Econ 101. We arent stamping out Widgets. Gordon Bethune captured it pretty well, that if you piss off your mechanics theres a good chance they wont fix your airplane, they will work on it alright, but that doesnt mean they will fix it, and there isnt much you can do about it. So the next time you are stuck on a delay or cancellation you can ask yourself, "would I be sitting here if the mechanics werent pissed off or would I be on my way". The only one who would know is the mechanic, and maybe not even him.

 

[eolesen]

Oh well, once again a thread about something unrelated to the stock price has turned into something all about labor... Sorry, not enough hours in the day.

If you ever decide to go back to talking about the stock price, wake me up.

 

[Bob Owens]

2)Market forces is what is adjusting your salary.

Not quite that simple. Maybe you should have gone beyond Econ 101. The RLA, delays our ability to capitalize on market forces while the BK courts allow the airlines to do so. It has had a ratchetting downward effect on our wages. Its a contest between collective labor and collective Capital where the governent has clearly chosen to support collective Capital. If we were under the NLRA we would have restored our wages or had multiple strikes. The NLRA would add volitility to the labor markets. In our situation where large groups of workers are needed its normally more advantageous for workers to bargain collectively against a large corporation than as individuals because if you employ large numbers of people doing the same thing you can easily afford to lose a few at a time. By bargainlg collectively, making youself part of a much larger group, that the company would find much more difficult to replace, you increase your leverage. If people with excess Capital can form collectives in an attempt to create more wealth for themselves off their excess wealth then workers should be affirded the same options with their labor, which is perishable.

There is a reason why union membership is < 10% in the United States (according to wikipedia). Like the black and white tv and betamax vcr, unions had a very important place in history and have contributed to working improvements not only in the USofA, but throughout the world. Like the black and white tv and betamax vcr however, they are no longer as useful or needed in 2011.

Well maybe they arent that useful for people like you but they are needed by us. Its no co-incidenece that as Unions have declined wealth inequality has become more extreme. The majority of people in this country are seeing declining real wages, another effect of the decline of unions. Without going into the cause of the decline the fact is the decline of unions has more in common with the decline of native Americans than changes in technology.

Thanks Josh, my sentiments as well. I love aviation on a multitude of levels. I enjoy chatting with others who have knowledge on the subject. From the photography to the physics and everything in between. I've made a number of friends originally solely based on aviation. My wife thinks its a bit "geeky" however...

As yes, developing drugs is real Macho stuff, did you develop Viagra or something?

I guess working 10-12 hours/day (currently) is what one calls "a poor work ethic". So was going to grad. school while working- that's a "poor" work ethic. Maybe I should include that waking up every day at 4:00-4:30 a.m. to start work is a "poor" work ethic as well. Go figure... 🙄

Yet you have the time to have "veteran stsus on several chat sites, even ones that have nothing to do with what you do.

I can't recall showing any form of arrogance or superiority either (which is different than being sardonic-I'm a fan of Mark Twain). Maybe you can point to it?

Arrogance is seldom recognized by the afflicted.

Unlike other countries, in America, people have choices.

Unlike which countries? Alll other countries or just some countries? I've been to other countries, even Communist Countries and from what I've seen they all have choices, the amount of opportunity may vary but then again oppportunity is a combinaion of luck, determination and chutzpa. People in China have gone from rags to riches as well. In our industry those traits are frowned upon, do you want to fly on a plane worked on or flown by people who are risk takers?

 

[JAFA]

If we cant make it on 40 we can earn what we need by pulling it to the hangar instead. So they save $20k a year per head, but they pay more heads and their planes spend more time on the ground.. So the next time you are stuck on a delay or cancellation you can ask yourself, "would I be sitting here if the mechanics werent pissed off or would I be on my way". The only one who would know is the mechanic, and maybe not even him.

Frankly Bob, this is the problem. These 2 things should never be related. The contract should be negotiated at the bargaining table, not on the floor and certainly never on the aircraft. You may not like the process, or even have any faith in it, but there is a process to the negotiation. Whether true or not, just making these sorts of statements gives the perception of the "lazy, out for himself, knuckle dragging union mekanik" What you soemtimes choose not to realize is the traveling public, our customers, are just not interested in what the mechanics, or anyone else for that matter, make. Our jobs are to perform to the best of abilities at all times, regardless of hte contract, our mood that day, or anythiung else going on. To do anything less is plan unprofessional. To publicly state that an aircraft would intentionally be placed out of service, not becaue it couldn't be repaired in time for it's next flight, but because someone felt they needed some extra overtime either insults everyone, or if true is something that you should be ahamed of, not braggiung about.

 

[Buck]

Frankly Bob, this is the problem. These 2 things should never be related. The contract should be negotiated at the bargaining table, not on the floor and certainly never on the aircraft. You may not like the process, or even have any faith in it, but there is a process to the negotiation. Whether true or not, just making these sorts of statements gives the perception of the "lazy, out for himself, knuckle dragging union mekanik" What you soemtimes choose not to realize is the traveling public, our customers, are just not interested in what the mechanics, or anyone else for that matter, make. Our jobs are to perform to the best of abilities at all times, regardless of hte contract, our mood that day, or anythiung else going on. To do anything less is plan unprofessional. To publicly state that an aircraft would intentionally be placed out of service, not becaue it couldn't be repaired in time for it's next flight, but because someone felt they needed some extra overtime either insults everyone, or if true is something that you should be ahamed of, not braggiung about.

Upper right hand corner of the editor, the ABC with the check mark..... <_<

 

[Hopeful]

Oh well, once again a thread about something unrelated to the stock price has turned into something all about labor... Sorry, not enough hours in the day.

If you ever decide to go back to talking about the stock price, wake me up.

Might be time to buy some at near $5...It seems AA will come out smelling like a rose buy summers end, maybe by winter for having signed 3 union contracts....In the eyes of Wall St...it might seem that labor peace will finally fall upon AMR....The way the investors could see is that an agreement means employees are happy and AA's costs are lowered..

Sadly not the case as far has happy employees are concerned.