I would consider that likely, especially cutting LAS. I don't think this is an attempt to permanently establish another LA - SF shuttle, but I could be wrong. If these new routes turn out to be profitable (which is by no means a given), I'd bet longer hauls would have a much higher margin and make more sense for a slot-limited airport. In that case, LAS flying may be shifted to long-haul (LAS - JFK) or dropped, and then some OAK frequencies whittled away as necessary to introduce new service. IMHO, LAS is not a place to make much money, in the casinos or at the airport. Let WN, HP, and N7 keep it.
Long Beach = Waterloo
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I would consider that likely, especially cutting LAS. I don't think this is an attempt to permanently establish another LA - SF shuttle, but I could be wrong. If these new routes turn out to be profitable (which is by no means a given), I'd bet longer hauls would have a much higher margin and make more sense for a slot-limited airport. In that case, LAS flying may be shifted to long-haul (LAS - JFK) or dropped, and then some OAK frequencies whittled away as necessary to introduce new service. IMHO, LAS is not a place to make much money, in the casinos or at the airport. Let WN, HP, and N7 keep it.
My point that seems to be lost on everybody is that LGB is not JFK because it is surrounded by low-fare airports. There is nothing to draw people to LGB over the others. This is wholly different in NYC. Whether they fly long-haul or short-haul they will have low-fare competition.
jbu320
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Well, there is no use trying to contend with this litany of freepress reconstruction blasted with the force of a fire hydrant. Good foot work my friend.
I think there are valid points in both our views and certainly neither of us knows what goes on in the minds of the corporate helmsmen but I do believe there is more than meets the eye.
It is certainly unfair to say that all upstarts will make the same mistakes as those of yore. While PEX made some serious blunders, that was then and this is now. I really don't see a lot of parallels and it is certainly a different business climate than in the newly deregulated industry of the '80s.
There has always been a place for innovation in our country and just because it appears to go against the grain, it isn't necessarily bad.
It is only my opinion (unbiased), that we will all be surprised in the long term by the direction of B6 focus in the LGB and OAK arena. Since it apparently has become an arena. It doesn't take a lot of in depth analysis to recognize that LAS will be a temporary endeavor to protect the precious few slots which are all of a sudden so in demand at LGB.
My guess is that within a year, those 6/day flights will be 3 a day and there will be new markets in their place. I personally don't see the UAL/LUV blood bath of a few years ago repeating itself in this marketplace. While the players are definitely in a territorial protective stance at present, the real issues have yet to surface and will most likely give us plenty to debate over in the future.
Thanks again for playing...
[😉]
I think there are valid points in both our views and certainly neither of us knows what goes on in the minds of the corporate helmsmen but I do believe there is more than meets the eye.
It is certainly unfair to say that all upstarts will make the same mistakes as those of yore. While PEX made some serious blunders, that was then and this is now. I really don't see a lot of parallels and it is certainly a different business climate than in the newly deregulated industry of the '80s.
There has always been a place for innovation in our country and just because it appears to go against the grain, it isn't necessarily bad.
It is only my opinion (unbiased), that we will all be surprised in the long term by the direction of B6 focus in the LGB and OAK arena. Since it apparently has become an arena. It doesn't take a lot of in depth analysis to recognize that LAS will be a temporary endeavor to protect the precious few slots which are all of a sudden so in demand at LGB.
My guess is that within a year, those 6/day flights will be 3 a day and there will be new markets in their place. I personally don't see the UAL/LUV blood bath of a few years ago repeating itself in this marketplace. While the players are definitely in a territorial protective stance at present, the real issues have yet to surface and will most likely give us plenty to debate over in the future.
Thanks again for playing...
[😉]
Cool Bananas
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Jetblue doing all the short hauls between Oakland-LA-LAS, is this likely to increase brand awareness.
An morning and evening flights between LA & Oakland would still be useful to capture customers in both cities.
LAS would probably go long haul from JFK and IAD at least once a day, probably not going to be all that profitable but plenty of vacationers looking for a cheap fare.
What is the TV programming like on the Transcon overnight flights.
An morning and evening flights between LA & Oakland would still be useful to capture customers in both cities.
LAS would probably go long haul from JFK and IAD at least once a day, probably not going to be all that profitable but plenty of vacationers looking for a cheap fare.
What is the TV programming like on the Transcon overnight flights.
OK, I give up. Long Beach, as someone so eloquently stated, is not JFK. That much I'll agree to. But for those who think LGB is Jetblue's "Waterloo" remember this. Nobody was talking about LGB a couple of years ago. Why all the hulabaloo? Figure it out yourself.
AirplaneFan
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Wow, so many points to make so little time
1) Do some members really believe that JetBlue would have put its entire business strategy out on a press release? And we should measure JetBlue not on its profitability or management accumen, but by how they have managed against their original 1999 press release.
2) Hasn't Sept 11 changed every airlines business plans? And to JetBlue's credit they have maintained profitability where virtually all others have not.
3) Part of good management is adapting to changes in competitions, business conditions to take advantages of opportunities that hadn't been initially presented.
1) Do some members really believe that JetBlue would have put its entire business strategy out on a press release? And we should measure JetBlue not on its profitability or management accumen, but by how they have managed against their original 1999 press release.
2) Hasn't Sept 11 changed every airlines business plans? And to JetBlue's credit they have maintained profitability where virtually all others have not.
3) Part of good management is adapting to changes in competitions, business conditions to take advantages of opportunities that hadn't been initially presented.
Airplanefan,
how can you argue with the conventional widsom so well represented on this board? To stray from ones business plan is suicidal. And yes, these people know everything about Jetblue's business plan. Hell, they probably wrote it. They also have done thousands of hours of marketing research, which led to the startling conclusion that Long Beach is not JFK. I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift. To those who think they understand Jetblue's business plan, I'm glad David and Dave are at the helm, and not you. (Since someone will miss the sarcasm in this post, I apologize to you, in advance, for your confusion).
how can you argue with the conventional widsom so well represented on this board? To stray from ones business plan is suicidal. And yes, these people know everything about Jetblue's business plan. Hell, they probably wrote it. They also have done thousands of hours of marketing research, which led to the startling conclusion that Long Beach is not JFK. I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift. To those who think they understand Jetblue's business plan, I'm glad David and Dave are at the helm, and not you. (Since someone will miss the sarcasm in this post, I apologize to you, in advance, for your confusion).
Jbu320:
Well you asked where I got some of my ideas from, and I showed you. In the meantime, I will make some brief points:
1) PEX/JB Parallel. PEX initally operated a low-fare, low-frill operation north/south against ineffective competitors. JB initially operated a low-fare, low-frill (although not as low as PEX) operation north/south against ineffective competitors. Intially, both carriers were successful. Later, PEX added transcons and biz markets. The big boys took notice and action to counteract the competition (remember, AA used some innovations like revenue management and freq flyer program). Later, JB added transcons (are the biz markets far behind? I keep hearing JB at ORD rumors...). The big boys took notice and action to counteract the comepetition. OK, fine, JB has more resources than PEX to weather the storm. I still don't see why your purposefully go after the strongest two carriers.
2) If the long term LGB plan is long hauls to the midwest and east, I do not think that is a failed strategy. However, I think that the implementation of it is terrible. No airline has been interested in those slots for 10 years or so. I am willing to bet, that without JB's interest, they would still be available today and next year... Since there was no pressing need to tie up the slots, why bother? The City of LGB must have made the case to JB that these were in high demand, even though when they were available nobody wanted them.
3) Meanwhile, JB is missing opportunities to take advantage of US at JFK and UAL at IAD. But I guess, AirTran, Southwest, and Frontier can keep beating up on these two obvious targets, even though of these carriers, JB is the best positioned to take advantage. And why are they missing these opportunities? To add to the 70-some odd flights between LA and LAS and OAK. And at $19 to boot. All this to protect slots that would have been available anyway had they taken another approach.
Airplanefan: You are right, 9/11 has significantly altered this business. I think JB is missing the big opportunities as I already said. LUV and AirTran and Frontier are not.
Farley: Your sarcasm aside, post-dereg airline history is littered with start-ups who deviated from their plan and ended up out of business. Maybe I do need to list them. Meanwhile, airlines that have stuck with their original successful concept (like Southwest and Midwest Express) are still around. This assumes your original plan is feasable, unlike National. I think JB's original plan is very feasible. I don't think that LGB is a bad idea. I think this implementation plan in awful. But thats just my opinion.
I've had fun playing [:bigsmile:]
Well you asked where I got some of my ideas from, and I showed you. In the meantime, I will make some brief points:
1) PEX/JB Parallel. PEX initally operated a low-fare, low-frill operation north/south against ineffective competitors. JB initially operated a low-fare, low-frill (although not as low as PEX) operation north/south against ineffective competitors. Intially, both carriers were successful. Later, PEX added transcons and biz markets. The big boys took notice and action to counteract the competition (remember, AA used some innovations like revenue management and freq flyer program). Later, JB added transcons (are the biz markets far behind? I keep hearing JB at ORD rumors...). The big boys took notice and action to counteract the comepetition. OK, fine, JB has more resources than PEX to weather the storm. I still don't see why your purposefully go after the strongest two carriers.
2) If the long term LGB plan is long hauls to the midwest and east, I do not think that is a failed strategy. However, I think that the implementation of it is terrible. No airline has been interested in those slots for 10 years or so. I am willing to bet, that without JB's interest, they would still be available today and next year... Since there was no pressing need to tie up the slots, why bother? The City of LGB must have made the case to JB that these were in high demand, even though when they were available nobody wanted them.
3) Meanwhile, JB is missing opportunities to take advantage of US at JFK and UAL at IAD. But I guess, AirTran, Southwest, and Frontier can keep beating up on these two obvious targets, even though of these carriers, JB is the best positioned to take advantage. And why are they missing these opportunities? To add to the 70-some odd flights between LA and LAS and OAK. And at $19 to boot. All this to protect slots that would have been available anyway had they taken another approach.
Airplanefan: You are right, 9/11 has significantly altered this business. I think JB is missing the big opportunities as I already said. LUV and AirTran and Frontier are not.
Farley: Your sarcasm aside, post-dereg airline history is littered with start-ups who deviated from their plan and ended up out of business. Maybe I do need to list them. Meanwhile, airlines that have stuck with their original successful concept (like Southwest and Midwest Express) are still around. This assumes your original plan is feasable, unlike National. I think JB's original plan is very feasible. I don't think that LGB is a bad idea. I think this implementation plan in awful. But thats just my opinion.
I've had fun playing [:bigsmile:]
No pressing need to tie up the LGB slots? Nobody wanted them? Really! That is news. The whole business plan angle was debated ad naseum on plane business and other places. I'll just let the statistics keep doing the talking while all of you "experts" tell us how to do it right. Do some reading in the meantime.
Of course, if the number of posts on a bulletin board were any indicator of how well an airline would do, TWA would be absolutely dominating the industry today.
The real reason why this board has so many posts is because there is an interesting story here. You have a new airline which is in the process of expanding, which gives something to talk about. American is still straightening out the TWA acquisition, which gives them something to talk about, etc... Northwest, on the other hand, is just plugging along without any dramatic news to discuss, hence a lower number of posts
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
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Don't you know that the Bloonies don't like comparisons to PE?... 😉
Gotta agree that all this attention on filling up LGB is probably going to cause more long term damage than good. As already pointed out, it is diverting attention from what could be greener pastures, such as moving into MCI to replace Vanguard, or moving into IAD where UAL is too distracted with their own lack of direction and impending Chapter 11 to respond...
The only "strategic" value I see in trying to salvage the operation at LGB is so that David and his planning folks don't lose face.
Gotta agree that all this attention on filling up LGB is probably going to cause more long term damage than good. As already pointed out, it is diverting attention from what could be greener pastures, such as moving into MCI to replace Vanguard, or moving into IAD where UAL is too distracted with their own lack of direction and impending Chapter 11 to respond...
The only "strategic" value I see in trying to salvage the operation at LGB is so that David and his planning folks don't lose face.
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
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Bus, you really need to be a bit less defensive when it comes to UAL's finances... Especially when your company has issued press releases on this to the world... There's no smugness -- it is simply fact. And thank you for your concern over my knowledge of our own balance sheet, but I think I'm a bit more informed as an insider on AMR's finances than you are as an outsider.
Don't believe me? Look for yourself...
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/fi...report=2&freq=1
Frankly, trying to draw a parallel between finances and aircraft accidents is one of the more tasteless things I've seen in a while... I shouldn't have to remind you about SUX, COS, or HNL, all which took place within a few years of each other....
Don't believe me? Look for yourself...
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/fi...report=2&freq=1
Frankly, trying to draw a parallel between finances and aircraft accidents is one of the more tasteless things I've seen in a while... I shouldn't have to remind you about SUX, COS, or HNL, all which took place within a few years of each other....
