Long Beach = Waterloo
- Thread starter enilria
- Start date
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,223
- 1,425
Well, I dunno busdriver. I checked the same site for UAL and found this little ditty:
"Recent labor issues at United could result in a possible lack of proper oversight, which can cause accidents, Air Safety Online found in its audit"
Their words..not mine. As I said...There but for the Grace of God go I.
"Recent labor issues at United could result in a possible lack of proper oversight, which can cause accidents, Air Safety Online found in its audit"
Their words..not mine. As I said...There but for the Grace of God go I.
----------------
On 8/23/2002 1001 PM
Well, I dunno busdriver. I checked the same site for UAL and found this little ditty:
"Recent labor issues at United could result in a possible lack of proper oversight, which can cause accidents, Air Safety Online found in its audit"
Their words..not mine. As I said...There but for the Grace of God go I.
----------------
Hasn't been updated. It postulates. AMRs includes hard facts and stats. But, no, I won't go there. It doesn't require the grace of god to NOT knowingly violate company policy or FARs. Is it the grace of god that prevents you from scooting down the interstate in KC at 120? NO, you have the self discipline to follow the rules. Again, the words say "could" and "can" and "possibly", not THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST RATE OF PILOT DEVIATIONS IN THE INDUSTRY. (no "could, can, or possibly") But KC, I doubt you'd be so forgiving if one of your loved ones was hurt or worse by the blatent disregard of safety by a flight crew.
JFK Fleet Service
Veteran
I don't know Bus, you and EO were engaging in your usual pissing contest about finances and it was you who brought fatalities into the discussion.
When I fly on American, there is no doubt in my mind that the professionals behind that door will deliver me and my loved ones safely to our destination.
We now rejoin our regularly scheduled debate about jetblue vs Southwest, already in progress.[:bigsmile:]
When I fly on American, there is no doubt in my mind that the professionals behind that door will deliver me and my loved ones safely to our destination.
We now rejoin our regularly scheduled debate about jetblue vs Southwest, already in progress.[:bigsmile:]
jbu320
Member
- Aug 21, 2002
- 93
- 0
Funguy,
Thanks for continuing the game of words. I will refer you to Farley's so eloquently stated post prior to your last. You are a bit shortsighted in thinking that all the eggs are placed in one basket with LGB and JB.
Regarding PEX/JBU, this is apple and oranges. The only similarity is low fares. Beyond that, the similarities fade. PEX operated an aged fleet of mixed type aircraft on a shoe string budget, hinged on the willingness of their employees to fulfill multiple job descriptions. Their longterm interest was not in continued successful operations but to fulfill the dreams of Burr/Lorenzo to control the country with their cattle car type of operation. Amenities, comfort, convenience and other 'small' enticements were not considered. Remember the 50 cent cup of diluted coffee?
JBU on the other hand is a very clean operation with well funded backing, success in their strategies, single type AC, an interest in the passengers as well as employees not their dollars alone. Very controlled growth and adherance to that despite many attractive enticements to deviate from the expansion plan will 'probably' ensure a better chance of success in the long term.
Route structures and the like are interesting but not necessarily determining factors in viability or profitability. I don't believe JB is missing opportunities but prioritizing their long term position. While the players appear aligned, the game has just begun. They are not opportunistic or they would be diving into MCI and other graveyards as the ashes of failed counterparts are cooling. In that respect, there is a well researched plan that encompasses more than the short term $19. fares on routes that you're so focused on.
I maintain that LUV has not necessarily stuck with their original business plan but in the '70s when they started their triangular service between HOU-DAL-SAT, they operated an aged fleet of 3 737-200s with a revolutionary idea that has succeeded due to the forward looking approach of their management. That boils down to taking advantage of changes in the industry, opportunities that are not set in stone but will bring return to their backers and solidify their strength in the long term.
If you recall, they were originally to operate only within the state due to current rulings and limits of 500 mile operations. This, 30 years later does not appear that they have remained with their original business plan.
Bottom line Funguy, I believe Farley has seen the light and others will also. What you're professing as lost opportunities and wasted energy will probably reveal itself to be more of the 'thinking outside the box' that JB's management has demonstrated a proficiency at thus far. We all know the story of the many failed upstarts but you are trying to prophecy outcome based on short sighted information and historical events in a much altered business environment. I maintain a wait and see attitude with a little more faith in what has been demonstrated thus far.
[
]
Thanks for continuing the game of words. I will refer you to Farley's so eloquently stated post prior to your last. You are a bit shortsighted in thinking that all the eggs are placed in one basket with LGB and JB.
Regarding PEX/JBU, this is apple and oranges. The only similarity is low fares. Beyond that, the similarities fade. PEX operated an aged fleet of mixed type aircraft on a shoe string budget, hinged on the willingness of their employees to fulfill multiple job descriptions. Their longterm interest was not in continued successful operations but to fulfill the dreams of Burr/Lorenzo to control the country with their cattle car type of operation. Amenities, comfort, convenience and other 'small' enticements were not considered. Remember the 50 cent cup of diluted coffee?
JBU on the other hand is a very clean operation with well funded backing, success in their strategies, single type AC, an interest in the passengers as well as employees not their dollars alone. Very controlled growth and adherance to that despite many attractive enticements to deviate from the expansion plan will 'probably' ensure a better chance of success in the long term.
Route structures and the like are interesting but not necessarily determining factors in viability or profitability. I don't believe JB is missing opportunities but prioritizing their long term position. While the players appear aligned, the game has just begun. They are not opportunistic or they would be diving into MCI and other graveyards as the ashes of failed counterparts are cooling. In that respect, there is a well researched plan that encompasses more than the short term $19. fares on routes that you're so focused on.
I maintain that LUV has not necessarily stuck with their original business plan but in the '70s when they started their triangular service between HOU-DAL-SAT, they operated an aged fleet of 3 737-200s with a revolutionary idea that has succeeded due to the forward looking approach of their management. That boils down to taking advantage of changes in the industry, opportunities that are not set in stone but will bring return to their backers and solidify their strength in the long term.
If you recall, they were originally to operate only within the state due to current rulings and limits of 500 mile operations. This, 30 years later does not appear that they have remained with their original business plan.
Bottom line Funguy, I believe Farley has seen the light and others will also. What you're professing as lost opportunities and wasted energy will probably reveal itself to be more of the 'thinking outside the box' that JB's management has demonstrated a proficiency at thus far. We all know the story of the many failed upstarts but you are trying to prophecy outcome based on short sighted information and historical events in a much altered business environment. I maintain a wait and see attitude with a little more faith in what has been demonstrated thus far.
[
]Yes, Denever was severly impacting aircraft utilization at SWA due to horrid airport delays. Additionaly the Denver airport authority treated SWA like crap back then in issues involving gates, etc and turned their nose up to Herb's requests. Herb hasn't forgot it either. Anyway, combine the two factors and Herb said forget it. Bet Denver wishes they had treated SWA better now. Landing fees rediculously too high anyway at the new airport.
----------------
On 8/23/2002 704 AM
Jetblue doing all the short hauls between Oakland-LA-LAS, is this likely to increase brand awareness.
An morning and evening flights between LA & Oakland would still be useful to capture customers in both cities.
LAS would probably go long haul from JFK and IAD at least once a day, probably not going to be all that profitable but plenty of vacationers looking for a cheap fare.
What is the TV programming like on the Transcon overnight flights.
----------------
I bought a flowbee and found a new way to get my whites whiter. LOL
I did some digging...
Sep '93 LGB has 3 airlines, AS, HP, AA, 14 flights/day
Jul '96 LGB has 1 airline, HP, 5 flights per day
May '99 LGB has 2 scheduled airlines, AA w/ 3 trips/day, HP with 5.
Jun '01 LGB has 2 airlines, AA w/4 flights, HP w/5 flights.
So, yeah, I think there has historically been a lack of demand for slots. Had JB not made a big splash w/ 27 slots (all of the remaining slots), AA would likely not care...
Jbu320:
I think you misunderstand me. I said LGB was a mistake. I also said it was 2 or 3 airplanes, and even if it fails or does very poorly, it won't bring down the airline, merely slow it down.
I don't see PEX/JB as completely apples and oranges. Are there differences? Yes. Significant differences. Yes, very much so. However, if I described an over-hyped NYC based airline that after 2 years had 1 fleet type, a visionary leader, has started to over-fly its hub, offers $19 fares, and has visions of grandeur, you couldn't tell me whether I was talking about JBU or PEX. I agree that JB is a better operation than PEX and probably has better chances for survival. I understand that JB has revenue management. But lets not kid ourselves, how many start-ups have made it to 10 years? 3: WN, YX, HP.
Hey, I have said all along, that change is ok. Yes, Southwest's plans changed. But not for TEN YEARS. Not in under TWO. Maybe that was forced on Southwest, but it served them well. My contention was that start-up airlines that change their focus very early on seem to have problems and eventually go out of business. I never said things had to be static. I said that things have to go slow. Another example... America West, after 6 or 7 years got into 747's and Japan service. Major change from flying 737's to Cedar Rapids. Along with other factors (like the Gulf War) caused them to go into bankrupcy.
Also, I would agree with enilria... Airlines that are consumed by market share instead of profit fail. Especially small ones... They run out of money.
I think you misunderstand me. I said LGB was a mistake. I also said it was 2 or 3 airplanes, and even if it fails or does very poorly, it won't bring down the airline, merely slow it down.
I don't see PEX/JB as completely apples and oranges. Are there differences? Yes. Significant differences. Yes, very much so. However, if I described an over-hyped NYC based airline that after 2 years had 1 fleet type, a visionary leader, has started to over-fly its hub, offers $19 fares, and has visions of grandeur, you couldn't tell me whether I was talking about JBU or PEX. I agree that JB is a better operation than PEX and probably has better chances for survival. I understand that JB has revenue management. But lets not kid ourselves, how many start-ups have made it to 10 years? 3: WN, YX, HP.
Hey, I have said all along, that change is ok. Yes, Southwest's plans changed. But not for TEN YEARS. Not in under TWO. Maybe that was forced on Southwest, but it served them well. My contention was that start-up airlines that change their focus very early on seem to have problems and eventually go out of business. I never said things had to be static. I said that things have to go slow. Another example... America West, after 6 or 7 years got into 747's and Japan service. Major change from flying 737's to Cedar Rapids. Along with other factors (like the Gulf War) caused them to go into bankrupcy.
Also, I would agree with enilria... Airlines that are consumed by market share instead of profit fail. Especially small ones... They run out of money.
runway4
Advanced
runway4
Advanced
PE had two fleet types within its first two years of operation (three if you count the 737-100's and 737-200's separately). Some of them were already pretty old (e.g. the original LH 737-100's that still said "Ausgang" instead of "Exit"). Soon after came the 747.
The only time I remember PE overflying its own hub was shortly after its start-up, during the PATCO strike, when traffic was limited in the NYC area. What's so critical about sticking to one hub, anyway, especially if a good opportunity arises outside of that hub? WN has done just fine going point-to-point and having a series of focus cities, and AA is going through the exercise of de-peaking. I suspect we'll see more hub overflying in the near future by the majors.
In terms of hype, B6 can put its money where its mouth is, so to speak. There is a lot of hype, but they deliver on it. PE was pretty shaky in its reliablity. Sometimes my experience was good on PE, and sometimes it was horrendous.
As for the rock-bottom fares, I think the bulk of the $19 fares were offered in the last days of PE's existence as they were scrambling for cash.
Burr definitely had visions of grandeur: buying Frontier, Britt, and PBA, and trying to make them work as one network, flying 747s across the pond, undertaking the building of terminal C in EWR. Compared those hyjinx, B6 opening LGB as a focus city seems almost innocuous.
Your point that HP had troubles during the Gulf War period after launching 747s PHX-HNL actually supports the theory that B6 is doing things right (at this point, anyway). I think we're in a worse downturn than the '91 Gulf War period, and B6 seems to be humming along quite nicely with their brand new fleet of one aircraft type. I don't think any airline is recession proof, but B6 -- pre-union and pre-heavy maintenance, of course -- is doing more than okay for itself.
