Jetblue To Reconsider E190 Order

Let me briefly explain a little about the economic argument. When Airlines had the ability to price discriminate among it’s customers, pilots had the ability to to do the same with airlines. Now travel is considered a commodity. Even if UAL or any other legacy carrier, were able to offer a superior product, in many cases the person making the purchasing decision (the company travel office) is not the one who is traveling. The travel Dept guy is trying to be the man by keeping the cost in his dept down. He frankly doesn’t care if the employee he books finds himself on an 8 hop, 24-hour affair when he could have booked him non-stop for $10 more. All he cares is that he saved $10. Because of this new dynamic, like fuel, airlines can not afford to pay it’s employees more than what other airlines pay. The prevailing rate is established by the LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR. When the company argues for lower pay rates in BK, they cite YOUR rates as what they should get to pay. After all, you are willing to work for it. We have become price takers.

Now what would be the effect on pilot demand in the U.S. if we ALL raised pay by 50% on the same day? Would the total demand for pilots go down? Maybe, but by a very small amount (the demand for hours flown may go down, but not necessarily the number of pilots). Personally I think fares are now to the point that the demand for air travel is relatively inelastic. I think the trends in fares and demand over the last year would bear that out. Now consider that pilot pay is around 10% of total cost. Even if demand for air travel were relatively elastic, a 50% pilot raise would only increase total cost by 5%. Now back to the number of pilots demanded at the higher rates. I think you could rationally make the argument that much of the latest changes have been to the work rules. Given that raising pilot pay 50% across the board would actually INCREASE the total amount spent on pilot pay, better work rules would result in MORE pilots at HIGHER pay rates. However, as long as there are folks out there who have no job and no prospects, and are willing to work for any pay rate as long as they get to wear their uniform around the trailer park, then we can’t get rates up to the place they should be. Are economics at play? sure. Likewise, if we removed all rules on who could call themselves a Dr. and who could call themselves a lawyer, those rates would go down also. Unfortunately, the qualifications to be an airline pilot are so low, that we have no control over who gets to be one. As rates stay low, ex-military pilots will increasingly choose other careers, as will the quality civilian pilots. This industry will be the refuge of H.S. grads with a little cash to get a license. It’s too bad we don’t; have enough spine to prevent this from happening.

Enough time to have another job? Show me an industry where some people don’t hold two jobs. Unfortunately, it used to be an option, now it’s becoming a requirement to pay the bills. FWIW, Edwardson was not at UAL when C2K was negotiated, and I want to know who thinks 280 hours away from home gives one a lot of “time off’ (old rules), and now that the new rule is 380 hours, if that’s just a bunch of time off also.
 
What are you UAL apologists rationalizing now? Your totally absurd payscale? Your three year odyssey to boldly go where no airline has gone before? Your defense of it is a joke. I don't blame you for it, but please don't defend it. Please don't let Busdrvr rationalize it with his economic theorizing. (A power point presentation would have been nice). Just go back and get your own house in order, and we'll take care of ours. Also, try to remember all those years you were all trash-talking Southwest. They now make as much as your wide-body captains. Rationalize that!
 
Our CEO said we could make money with $80/bbl. oil, and he was RIGHT.

The problem, el magister, is that after Katrina the crack spread went from 5 bucks to 50 bucks. We were paying 2-3 bucks per gallon of Jet A, which is the equivalent of $120/bbl. oil.

In October, the damage was done. Even with fuel below forecast, and even if we make up the difference with lower than forecast fuel and some higher revenues, they still forecast a loss because we cancelled the equivalent of $10-15 million worth of flights into damaged Florida and Gulf coast cities. That is the reason JB is going to post a loss.

Further, your idea that we are dragging down the whole industry is goofy......if that is so, why hasn't the SWA payscale saved you?

Enjoy your thanksgiving....I know I will.

OBTW.....I have been flying the 190 and you know what....the "issues" are subsiding and we are running the crap out of them. Just takes a little time to work out the kinks in the system.

Boomer
 
UAL has spent the last 3 years in bankruptcy and its pathetic, cowardly actions now serve as the industry preferred template for management at Delta and NWA to now royally screw their respective pilot groups in pay and benefits. And you have the unmigated gall to point your finger at JetBlue and say they are bringing down the bar in this profession because of their first year E190 pay rates?

All of you UAL bubbas who sign on to that theory need to stand in front of the mirror and take a good hard look at yourselves...talk about living in a dream world!
 
UAL has spent the last 3 years in bankruptcy and its pathetic, cowardly actions now serve as the industry preferred template for management at Delta and NWA to now royally screw their respective pilot groups in pay and benefits. And you have the unmigated gall to point your finger at JetBlue and say they are bringing down the bar in this profession because of their first year E190 pay rates?

All of you UAL bubbas who sign on to that theory need to stand in front of the mirror and take a good hard look at yourselves...talk about living in a dream world!


Not just bringing down the pilot profession, but the entire industry! JB is a pathetic airline that needs to go away. :up:
 
Farley-

That's right. Go back to your house and your discount airline pilot business plan. Keep bringing down pay, work rules, and FAR's. I guess I'll just have to expect the spiral to deepen with guys like you in the industry. Hopefully you guys will never get a widebody and drag those rates down as well.

Boomer-

Actually, SWA does save us....a little. When we do have to go back and renegotiate our contract in 2009, our management will take the worst contract out there (JetBlue's more than likely) and slide that across the table but at least we can say, "well what about SWA?" and hopefully use that as a lever to drag rates UP a bit instead of DOWN like you guys are doing. You still don't have any idea how much damage you guys have done to the airline pilot profession and I'm not sure you ever will. And now with the EMB 190 rates, our friends at the regionals flying 50 to 70 seat jets are going to get hammered as well. You'll enjoy your Thanksgiving, I'm sure. Those RJ guys at the regionals are probably wondering how low their 50-70 seat jet RJ rates are going to look like next Thanksgiving or the Thanksgiving after when their contracts are up. With JetBlue trend setters such as yourselves, hopefully the regional guys can limbo real low under the bar you just reset for no apparent reason.

Daedalus-

It's funny that you call UAL "cowardly." Our management (and NWA's and DAL) use the bankruptcy process to greatly reduce our pay and workrules using JetBlue's pilot contract as a "template." How can you say that employees at these companies are being screwed when we're basically getting our pay and work rules lowered to the same pay and work rules that you currently "enjoy" so that we can compete? Surely you're not implying that you too, as a JetBlue employee are being screwed by your current rates? If you are, please turn in your JetBlue badge right away because that's not the kind of employee Dave is looking for.

I guess Deaedalus, if you and your group "had the balls" to stand up to Dave and AT LEAST ask for pay rates and work rules anywhere near industry standards from the beginning, we wouldn't have had to use the bankruptcy process at all. And actually, it's not just the 1st year E190 pay rates I have a problem with. It's the whole 12 year pay scale. But Daedalus, don't believe me about the E190 rates. The next time you see some guys flying RJ's for airlines like Mesaba, Republic, Eagle, Comair, etc., ask them what they think of your E190 rates. Heck, ask a Mesa guy. Those E190 rates that you agreed to make Ornstein blush. Anyway, the next time you see a regional RJ pilot, ask them to explain to you the future problems (and damage) you'll be doing to them in the up and coming years. There are plenty of bright, educated guys trying to make a career at the regionals that just saw their RJ rates set back to the stone age and I am sure they would LOVE to have that discussion with you.


Hey guys.....I'm done. I guess I'm just going to have to accept the fact the downward spiral will continue and the JetBlue guys are just going to rationalize away their contribution to the problem. Hopefully the guys at Airtran, SWA, and Frontier have a clearer view of the big picture or we're all really screwed.
 
Farley-

That's right. Go back to your house and your discount airline pilot business plan. Keep bringing down pay, work rules, and FAR's. I guess I'll just have to expect the spiral to deepen with guys like you in the industry. Hopefully you guys will never get a widebody and drag those rates down as well.

Boomer-

Actually, SWA does save us....a little. When we do have to go back and renegotiate our contract in 2009, our management will take the worst contract out there (JetBlue's more than likely) and slide that across the table but at least we can say, "well what about SWA?" and hopefully use that as a lever to drag rates UP a bit instead of DOWN like you guys are doing. You still don't have any idea how much damage you guys have done to the airline pilot profession and I'm not sure you ever will. And now with the EMB 190 rates, our friends at the regionals flying 50 to 70 seat jets are going to get hammered as well. You'll enjoy your Thanksgiving, I'm sure. Those RJ guys at the regionals are probably wondering how low their 50-70 seat jet RJ rates are going to look like next Thanksgiving or the Thanksgiving after when their contracts are up. With JetBlue trend setters such as yourselves, hopefully the regional guys can limbo real low under the bar you just reset for no apparent reason.

Daedalus-

It's funny that you call UAL "cowardly." Our management (and NWA's and DAL) use the bankruptcy process to greatly reduce our pay and workrules using JetBlue's pilot contract as a "template." How can you say that employees at these companies are being screwed when we're basically getting our pay and work rules lowered to the same pay and work rules that you currently "enjoy" so that we can compete? Surely you're not implying that you too, as a JetBlue employee are being screwed by your current rates? If you are, please turn in your JetBlue badge right away because that's not the kind of employee Dave is looking for.

I guess Deaedalus, if you and your group "had the balls" to stand up to Dave and AT LEAST ask for pay rates and work rules anywhere near industry standards from the beginning, we wouldn't have had to use the bankruptcy process at all. And actually, it's not just the 1st year E190 pay rates I have a problem with. It's the whole 12 year pay scale. But Daedalus, don't believe me about the E190 rates. The next time you see some guys flying RJ's for airlines like Mesaba, Republic, Eagle, Comair, etc., ask them what they think of your E190 rates. Heck, ask a Mesa guy. Those E190 rates that you agreed to make Ornstein blush. Anyway, the next time you see a regional RJ pilot, ask them to explain to you the future problems (and damage) you'll be doing to them in the up and coming years. There are plenty of bright, educated guys trying to make a career at the regionals that just saw their RJ rates set back to the stone age and I am sure they would LOVE to have that discussion with you.
Hey guys.....I'm done. I guess I'm just going to have to accept the fact the downward spiral will continue and the JetBlue guys are just going to rationalize away their contribution to the problem. Hopefully the guys at Airtran, SWA, and Frontier have a clearer view of the big picture or we're all really screwed.


Hey guys, who is in the sack with Johnny O? Who gets paid the least to fly a widebody? Who was bucking for a massive payraise even as their revenue floor was falling out from under them? Yeah, that and more, was all your work. Some of it was bad timing, some bad judgement, but all you. I wish we could take the blame for everything so you could sleep better at night. I suggest a few hours of FOX NEWS to get your blood pressure up. You'll feel better.
 
Not just bringing down the pilot profession, but the entire industry! JB is a pathetic airline that needs to go away. :up:

B.O.B = Bitter Ole B**ch is back just in time for the Holidays ...Thought you got lost on MD80 selling buy on board meals.
 
Why is it that you guys can't see the real culprit here.

It isn't JB. It is the fact that the airline revenues went to hell post 9/11 and when they finally started to recover, fuel went through the roof.

I don't see where you guys can place blame on an airline with 90 jets. If you want to blame JB for having low fares and ruining the airline revenues, go ahead. Unfortunately, that is business. I don't see you running your mouths at SWA for lowering airline revenues.

No amount of complaining is going to get me to cut the throat of my employer for the sake of others who just want JB and the rest of the low cost carriers to go out of business so they can compete again. Many airlines pay less than JB. I don't hear you ragging on them.

If you really look at who set the bar where it is, it was USAirways post BK 2. That was the fencepost UAL, DAL, NWA, and the rest will use. In fact, a 12 year BUS CA at JB makes more than a 12 year BUS CA at UAL. As for the 190, the pay is based on the BUS rate and with time and a half for hours over 70, is $97/hr. assuming a 85 hour month.

You ought to be thanking us. As a result of the 190, the USAirways group decided that the 190 is a mainline jet....therefore it won't get farmed out to the lowest bidder and at least you will have a job. I will bet that the other mainline carriers will follow suit in that area.

Enough for a Thanksgiving day.

Boomer
 
For the record I don't work for B6 and your weak attempt to tie what is happening at UAL is the result of B6's pilot contract template demonstrates your enduring ignorance of this business. The trouble at UAL would have occurred whether or not JetBlue ever existed. But if it helps you and your ilk to sleep better at night by blaming them for your airline's troubles then keep on spinning your version of reality. Meanwhile another reality check on UAL became available for public inspection with the announcement of another $698 million dollar loss for Oct. and a total of $14.9 billion in losses since entering bankruptcy three years ago. Yeah...you're right I can see the connection between that $14.9 billion and JetBlue's pilot contract template as the source of all those losses.

What a joke!
 
I believe this article is about 2 years old but the history reminder is quite interesting nonetheless.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


CRC Highlight
Killing the Golden Goose
By Patrick Chisholm



Within the last year, two major airlines have filed for bankruptcy, at least one has been on the verge of doing so, and hundreds of thousands of people in the industry have been laid off. While recession, September 11, the Iraq war, SARS, and other factors certainly have aggravated airlines’ woes, they are not the root cause of them. For that, it helps to look back at the events of 2000. That was when Rick Dubinsky, the longtime head of United’s pilots union, stated: “We don’t want to kill the golden goose. We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg.â€



Amid the boom years of the late 1990s, unions wanted a piece of airlines’ profits. So they put a number of choke holds on the airlines in order to secure the most expensive contracts possible. The summer and fall of 2000 saw one of the largest work slowdowns in airline history.



Pilots, mechanics, and flight attendants refused to work overtime. Employees took two or three times longer than usual to perform work, and hundreds would call in sick on the same day, causing flight cancellations. Pilots flew more slowly in order to force delays. Mechanics worked at a slower pace as well, or took more planes out of action than usual for repairs. The Association of Flight Attendants was not shy about its intentions: it called its activities CHAOS, for Create Havoc Around Our System. So much for putting passengers first.



Giving in to union demands, in October 2000 United granted pilots pay raises ranging from 21.5 percent to 28.5 percent, plus annual hikes of 4 percent after that. Average annual compensation of senior United pilots skyrocketed from $250,000 a year to almost $400,000. Other unions, such as that of the mechanics and flight attendants, won hefty raises as well. United’s competitors were stunned by the extravagant pay and benefits packages, knowing their employees would demand the same. Sure enough, the ripple effect kicked in. Delta pilots, for example, adopted United’s terms plus 1 percent.



Whether the unions will end up unintentionally killing the golden goose remains to be seen, depending on whether the gasping airlines are able to avoid going into liquidation. But the unions were certainly successful getting every last egg. And now the chickens have come home to roost.



The current predicament is another chapter in the long saga of shaking the effects of the era of regulation, which ended in 1978. In those days airlines were largely insulated from competition, enabling them to charge high fares and pay workers generous wages and benefits, as well as to maintain inefficient work rules. Higher labor costs were simply passed on to customers. This gave management little incentive to resist the demands of labor unions.



The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 took the regulatory shackles off of airlines, allowing them to set fares and routes themselves. It was an enormous and sudden change, forcing the airlines to compete head-on based on price and quality. Revenues declined, but costs did not.



Though the rules of the game were radically altered for management, such was not the case for labor. The workforce still retained their salaries, benefits, and work rules. Unions retained enormous power, and could cripple or kill an airline if their demands were not met. Eastern Airlines was one such victim, which had to close its doors in 1991 after its mechanics union opted to strike. Other casualties included Braniff, Pan Am, and TWA.



The surviving behemoths, such as United, American, Delta, and Northwest, are now taking steps to pare back labor-induced excesses and inefficiencies entrenched in those airlines since the era of regulation. Whether enough fat can be wrung from the system in order to prevent more airline deaths remains to be seen. That is largely up to the still-powerful unions.



The unions can accept further concessions in order to help their employers thrive in this ever-competitive environment, or they can balk. The latter move would not be all bad; after all, liquidation of uncompetitive companies means resources would be freed up to be deployed elsewhere more efficiently. But this does not have to happen; the companies could get competitive – if their unions only let them.



Patrick Chisholm is managing principal of PolicyComm and an adjunct fellow with the Capital Research Center.
 
Farley-

That's right. Go back to your house and your discount airline pilot business plan. Keep bringing down pay, work rules, and FAR's. I guess I'll just have to expect the spiral to deepen with guys like you in the industry. Hopefully you guys will never get a widebody and drag those rates down as well.

Boomer-

Actually, SWA does save us....a little. When we do have to go back and renegotiate our contract in 2009, our management will take the worst contract out there (JetBlue's more than likely) and slide that across the table but at least we can say, "well what about SWA?" and hopefully use that as a lever to drag rates UP a bit instead of DOWN like you guys are doing. You still don't have any idea how much damage you guys have done to the airline pilot profession and I'm not sure you ever will. And now with the EMB 190 rates, our friends at the regionals flying 50 to 70 seat jets are going to get hammered as well. You'll enjoy your Thanksgiving, I'm sure. Those RJ guys at the regionals are probably wondering how low their 50-70 seat jet RJ rates are going to look like next Thanksgiving or the Thanksgiving after when their contracts are up. With JetBlue trend setters such as yourselves, hopefully the regional guys can limbo real low under the bar you just reset for no apparent reason.

Daedalus-

It's funny that you call UAL "cowardly." Our management (and NWA's and DAL) use the bankruptcy process to greatly reduce our pay and workrules using JetBlue's pilot contract as a "template." How can you say that employees at these companies are being screwed when we're basically getting our pay and work rules lowered to the same pay and work rules that you currently "enjoy" so that we can compete? Surely you're not implying that you too, as a JetBlue employee are being screwed by your current rates? If you are, please turn in your JetBlue badge right away because that's not the kind of employee Dave is looking for.

I guess Deaedalus, if you and your group "had the balls" to stand up to Dave and AT LEAST ask for pay rates and work rules anywhere near industry standards from the beginning, we wouldn't have had to use the bankruptcy process at all. And actually, it's not just the 1st year E190 pay rates I have a problem with. It's the whole 12 year pay scale. But Daedalus, don't believe me about the E190 rates. The next time you see some guys flying RJ's for airlines like Mesaba, Republic, Eagle, Comair, etc., ask them what they think of your E190 rates. Heck, ask a Mesa guy. Those E190 rates that you agreed to make Ornstein blush. Anyway, the next time you see a regional RJ pilot, ask them to explain to you the future problems (and damage) you'll be doing to them in the up and coming years. There are plenty of bright, educated guys trying to make a career at the regionals that just saw their RJ rates set back to the stone age and I am sure they would LOVE to have that discussion with you.
Hey guys.....I'm done. I guess I'm just going to have to accept the fact the downward spiral will continue and the JetBlue guys are just going to rationalize away their contribution to the problem. Hopefully the guys at Airtran, SWA, and Frontier have a clearer view of the big picture or we're all really screwed.

This post is funny. You make it sound like jetBlue is the king. It seems jetBlue, isn't doing to great over the past 5 years! Take a look below:




JetBlue Airways Corp. (JBLU)
 
Looks Familiar!





This post is funny. You make it sound like jetBlue is the king. It seems jetBlue, isn't doing to great over the past 5 years! Take a look below:
JetBlue Airways Corp. (JBLU)
 

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Looks Familiar!


Gee, nice comeback. :rolleyes:

AA has lost tons of cash but, the stock has not dropped as fast as JBLU! Get that resume out because JB is going, going...GONE!

So how does it feel to go from the A330 at US to a cheesy EMB170? Are you making the same pay? NOT! Guess what? I make more then you do as an AA flight attendant!! Laughing all the way to the BANK! :lol:
 
Gee, nice comeback. :rolleyes:

AA has lost tons of cash but, the stock has not dropped as fast as JBLU! Get that resume out because JB is going, going...GONE!

So how does it feel to go from the A330 at US to a cheesy EMB170? Are you making the same pay? NOT! Guess what? I make more then you do as an AA flight attendant!! Laughing all the way to the BANK! :lol:
there is almost nothing more pathetic than an AA FA with an attitude..........and, based on what you did to the TW people, you have absolutely no respect for your own profession.
 

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