Jetblue To Reconsider E190 Order

[v1rotate]

Bus

This business is all about choices. Some turn out good and others…well…not so good. I too had a choice prior to JetBlue. Not long before 9-11, UAL was one of those choices that I had on the table. For various reasons, mostly having to due with perceived impending economic problems for major airlines in general and combined with a contentious employee / management relationship, UAL was not the choice for me. For better or worse, that was my choice.

Fast forward to JetBlue. After a lot of research and much soul searching, I came to the conclusion, again for various reasons, that JetBlue would be the best fit for me. My choice.

Are things perfect at JetBlue? Not by a long shot and there is always room for improvement. The difference here is that we attempt to work together to solve problems. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t but we continue to try. Despite your personal beliefs towards CEO’s in general, we actually like ours, and most importantly respect him very much. I know it’s a strange concept to understand. Sorry.

What you don’t see however is a lot of JetBlue folks over on the UAL board throwing insults and blaming others for various industry woes. I suppose people could point out the length of UAL bankruptcy and its effect on the industry or something to that effect, but really what good would it do? In the end, we all have our own personal axe to grind. I personally however wish nothing but the best for the many fine folks at UAL, including you Bus.

What really bothers me however is that all too often people are more than willing to point fingers and blame others for there own woes. Airline industry problems began long before JetBlue ever took flight. I taught my children at an early age to take responsibility for their choices and actions. I only wish that grown adults would too.

Bus, this “I told you soâ€, “I was rightâ€, “You just wait and seeâ€, attitude is getting old. You don’t have a crystal ball that can see the future and neither do I. I suppose if we did neither of us would be in this industry in the first place. Hindsight is always 20/20. We roll the dice and hope that the day we retire that we indeed made the right decision.

In conclusion I continue stand by the intent of my original statement that despite your perception and personal opinions of how we do business, you don’t work for JetBlue, so take care of your own business first and we’ll take care of ours. It’s your choice.

v1

 

[ualdriver]

Busdrvr, jetz, I think you've been spot on with the vast majority of your comments, but I suspect it is falling on deaf ears. V1's comments are perfect examples......


Are things perfect at JetBlue? Not by a long shot and there is always room for improvement. The difference here is that we attempt to work together to solve problems. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t but we continue to try. Despite your personal beliefs towards CEO’s in general, we actually like ours, and most importantly respect him very much. I know it’s a strange concept to understand. Sorry.

It's not a strange concept to respect a CEO. Do you want to know WHY your JetBlue pilot/management relationship is so wonderful? It's because you guys give him EVERYTHING HE WANTS! Think about it. You guys work(ed) for Dave (and continue to do so considering the E190) for below market rates. You barely have any work rules. Your 12 year A320 payscale hasn't even been adjusted for inflation since...when? When the transcon scheduling got a little "tenuous" you guys said, "Don't worry Dave. We'll just change the FAR's to accomodate your scheduling needs." And then, despite all the growth and profitability you guys have enjoyed at JetBlue, when the EMB190 is announced and introduced, you fly it for below market rates YET AGAIN! Of course you have a wonderful relationship with management! You give him absolutely everthing he could ask for with no resistance whatsoever outside your "values" meetings. Man, if we at UAL gave and gave to Glenn with no resistance whatsover like you guys continue to do, we'd have an AWESOME relationship with our CEO. He would love us to no end!


What you don’t see however is a lot of JetBlue folks over on the UAL board throwing insults and blaming others for various industry woes.

I personally don't blame JetBlue alone for our industry woes nor do I have an axe to grind against JetBlue in particular. I know it's a bunch of crap when people write that you guys don't pay for your aircraft or don't pay for your fuel, or whatever. But I do think the whole LCC thing is the blame for the degradation of legacy pay and work rules. So whatever percentage of the LCC environment JetBlue makes up, that's the percentage of "blame" I put on JetBlue for dragging down pilot wages to their level.


I suppose people could point out the length of UAL bankruptcy and its effect on the industry or something to that effect, but really what good would it do? In the end, we all have our own personal axe to grind. I personally however wish nothing but the best for the many fine folks at UAL, including you Bus.

You could point that out. You could point out that it took one year to get the whole ATSB loan thing off our back. Then it took 2 years to reorganize sans the help of the ATSB, come up with plan B or C, and exit. So I guess the "effect" of our bankruptcy has been that our company has had about 3 years to bring our labor costs DOWN to the level of our LCC brethern, including JetBlue. And don't forget it took 3 years to outsource just about all of our maintenance to other entities/countries so we could better compete with our LCC counterparts who do that as well to save a dime.


What really bothers me however is that all too often people are more than willing to point fingers and blame others for there own woes. Airline industry problems began long before JetBlue ever took flight. I taught my children at an early age to take responsibility for their choices and actions. I only wish that grown adults would too.

It's funny you should mention that because it bothers me, too. For once, you know what I would like to see on a JetBlue forum? I like to hear one JetBlue guy say, yeah, we know when we try to change FAR's, when we introduce 100 seat aircraft and pay our pilots well below industry standards for an aircraft that size, that YES, we realize that at minimum it has SOME downward effect on the pay and work rules of others in the industry. When we don't even try to adjust our payscales for inflation or when we undercut other carrier's 50 seat(!) RJ rates instead of trying to seek even small, inflationary raises, that we're really not doing anything to even raise the bar just a little bit for someone else to build upon. We realize that, but we also realize that our business plan depends upon discount airline pilot labor, and since it would make it more difficult or even impossible for us to make money if we paid our employees market rates, that's the way it has to be. Sorry, but if we don't keep accepting lower wages, our company won't be able to make as much money. That's accepting responsibility and understanding how ones' actions affect the rest of the industry.


In conclusion I continue stand by the intent of my original statement that despite your perception and personal opinions of how we do business, you don’t work for JetBlue, so take care of your own business first and we’ll take care of ours. It’s your choice.

In conclusion, I'd say that I'd love to be able to take care of our own business. But you see V1, the problem is that every time you guys come up with some new scheme to save a dime, it affects our business. When you guys want to change the FAR's, we're wondering if the net effect of that change will be an entire rewriting of the domestic and flag FAR's when JetBlue does transcon turns and 10-12 hours of flying per day. When you guys happily fly 737/DC9/717 sized jets for 50 seat RJ rates, we're wondering if our management is going to slide your contractual rates across the table the next time we get together to negotiate and say, "match them or we can't compete." I guess once you guys are done setting new, lower precedents for the airline industry, the rest of us will be better able to take care of our business and stop the downward spiral.

 

[Busdrvr]

Excellent Response UAL driver

Java Boy,

(how's your ESOP options?)

worth more than the options some of your employees hold. the trustee cashed us out on the cheap on the way down. BTW, it's ESOP STOCK, not OPTIONS.

(where does UAL vs B6 on DOT STATS?)

About 5% better ontime for the last 12 months than Blu.

Blu 16/19
UAL 7/19

(157% increase in jetfuel nor 75% increase in jetfuel consumption has nothing to do with it)

It shouldn't, after all, YOUR CEO said proudly that he could make money with $80 oil, while no one else could. Another Arrogant idiot.

(B6 rates are going up, UAL/DAL/LCC/CAL/NWAC rates are coming down both will find equlibrium, that is basic economic theory not union vs non union)

And meanwhile, where returning to profitablility faster than you're closing the pay gap. Since it will all go back to equilibrium anyway, then why did you start out so low? So the equilibrium could be low? Thanks.... at least Dave loves you...

(you got a star on your alpa pin? a 10, 15 or 20 year pin?? enough said)

So a 15 year ALPA pin qualifies someone to be scabesque? There are 1 year pilots who would NEVER cross a line, and there are 30 year battle star pin wearers who will cross the next one. The fact I didn't put on the knee pads and grovel for Dave should be an indication that I have standards and would rather find ANOTHER career before I'd cheapen the profession. How about you? This isn't about being in a union. this is about demanding fair wages for a tough profession. I don't give a rats that you aren't union. Match the payrates at SWA across the board and you save the 2%. I don't care, BUT QUIT DESTROYING THE PROFESSION.

(if the other "alpa" majors never furloughed, we wouldnt be having this discussion??? guess maybe junior alpa birdmen and women should have been treated better? then they wouldnt be applying their trade elsewhere?? oh i would add your not a real airline pilot until your furloughed 2 times? to your just one man./woman comment)

While I don't think ALPA did/will do everything they could have for the furloughed pilots, and I personally have big issues with the self centered nature of my own groups BK stock allocation (5% goes to the 30% who gave the most, and they top it off by shorting the very senior guys also), I figure I can B and M about how lifes not fair while I go sell out the profession, or I could have a little self respect. And your "real airline pilot" crap is akin to saying your not a "real husband" unless you've been divorced twice. I'll let the SWA guys know that they aren't real airline pilots in your view...

 

[Daedalus]

Well, well.....all of you UAL folks seem to have all the answers on how to fix B6. However, when it comes to your own airline all of that applied expertise seems non-existent. If you want to impress me then walk the walk with your own airline's problems, both internally and the huge negative impact UALs problems have put on the rest of the industry. It makes whatever B6 is accussed of doing look like peanuts.

 

[ualdriver]

Well, well.....all of you UAL folks seem to have all the answers on how to fix B6. However, when it comes to your own airline all of that applied expertise seems non-existent. If you want to impress me then walk the walk with your own airline's problems, both internally and the huge negative impact UALs problems have put on the rest of the industry. It makes whatever B6 is accussed of doing look like peanuts.

I don't know if B6 as a company needs to be fixed nor do I necessarily care as long as you guys stop lowering the bar!

 

[v1rotate]

Ualdriver,

You slam us here at JetBlue for not demanding higher wages and setting the bar below market rates. You state we give Dave “everything he wantsâ€￾ or “that we’re really not doing anything to even raise the bar just a little bit for someone else to build uponâ€￾. If this is what you truly believe then I have to ask how come you folks at UAL did not have the gonads to stand up to Glenn when you still had the wages and give all us poor JetBlue pukes something to build on? You can spin your woes anyway you want, but if you are going to make judgmental accusations then I suggest you walk the talk.

I am truly sorry that you have been dealt the cards you have. Honestly, I wish on nobody the trials, tribulations, and stress that you folks at UAL have gone through in bankruptcy. I myself have gone through it twice, it’s no fun and I pray it never happens again. I sincerely hope for the sake of yourself, your families, and the many fine employees at UAL that everything turns out for the best.

v1

 

[Busdrvr]

Ualdriver,

You slam us here at JetBlue for not demanding higher wages and setting the bar below market rates. You state we give Dave “everything he wantsâ€￾ or “that we’re really not doing anything to even raise the bar just a little bit for someone else to build uponâ€￾. If this is what you truly believe then I have to ask how come you folks at UAL did not have the gonads to stand up to Glenn when you still had the wages and give all us poor JetBlue pukes something to build on? You can spin your woes anyway you want, but if you are going to make judgmental accusations then I suggest you walk the talk.

I am truly sorry that you have been dealt the cards you have. Honestly, I wish on nobody the trials, tribulations, and stress that you folks at UAL have gone through in bankruptcy. I myself have gone through it twice, it’s no fun and I pray it never happens again. I sincerely hope for the sake of yourself, your families, and the many fine employees at UAL that everything turns out for the best.

v1

Right..... We're all supposed to hold the bar way above your level, while you grow at our expense..... Sure Pal.

 

[ualdriver]

You slam us here at JetBlue for not demanding higher wages and setting the bar below market rates. You state we give Dave “everything he wantsâ€￾ or “that we’re really not doing anything to even raise the bar just a little bit for someone else to build uponâ€￾. If this is what you truly believe then I have to ask how come you folks at UAL did not have the gonads to stand up to Glenn when you still had the wages and give all us poor JetBlue pukes something to build on? You can spin your woes anyway you want, but if you are going to make judgmental accusations then I suggest you walk the talk.

Because it was too late to take a stand, that's why. We kept wages up as high as we could, as long as we could using our peers as our guide and building upon each other. When the LCC's, including JetBlue reached "critical mass" in the very late 90's, the handwriting was on the wall and 9/11 just accelerated a process that was going to happen anyway.

UAL (and DAL or NWA for that matter) "making a stand" is now pointless. Even if we as UAL pilots had told our management to go pound sand last year and went on strike to "preserve wages," compensation still would have trended downward to the low bar set by the LCC's. The LCC's would have grown tremendously in our void. JetBlue/Frontier/Airtran would have grown with their LCC wages/work rules, undercutting the rest of the industry's wages until the next victim succumbed. Once all the LCC's got too big to ignore in the late 90's, every legacy carrier has a choice- either match their labor rates or die a death by a 1000 cuts. It's all happening right now right before our eyes.

Now, mind you, if Glenn had been stupid enough to offer us $80 bucks an hour to fly our 100 seat 737's around, I can practically guarantee you that my screenname wouldn't be "ualdriver" anymore because UAL would no longer have existed. We ended up basically getting "LCC market rates" for our narrowbodies, which is why I believe the whole thing passed. I think our pilot group came to the realization that DAL and AMR aren't our toughest competitors anymore- JetBlue, Airtran and Frontier are. And if we're going to compete against those guys, our largest controllable cost (labor) has to come DOWN to their level. Unfortunately, therefore, narrowbody TOTAL compensation went down about 50% for us because carriers like JetBlue set those new, extremely low market rates. The same will probably now occur with the 50-70 seat RJ rates. They'll probably go in the toilet LONG TERM because the new market rate for 100 seat jets has just been lowered for apparently no reason other than Dave can get away with it.

You guys say you have a great pilot/management relationship. I guess the difference between our relationship and your relationship is that our CEO knows better than to come after us for BELOW MARKET rates for the aircraft we fly even though we're in bankruptcy. Your CEO however, has a VERY FIRM understanding of your "relationship" and takes advantage of it accordingly. See the difference?

No need to feel sorry for me and I haven't been "dealt" a bad hand yet. Believe it or not, I believe in capitalism (for the most part) and if UAL fails, so be it. I have friends at JetBlue and wish no one ill will either. Business is business. However, I just hope you guys at JetBlue and the other LCC's understand that every time you guys lower the bar, we're all forced to come down and join you. Those EMB190 rates have just started a brand new row of dominoes that will now start to fall starting with DAL and NWA, and I suspect that in 2009 when my contract is reopened for negotiations, your EMB 190 rates are going to be slid across the table.....Hopefully by then they'll be closer to $130/hr where they should be instead of $80/hr.

 

[v1rotate]

“Because it was too late to take a stand, that's why.â€

More excuses. It’s never too late. Come on now, do the right thing for all of us in this industry. Be a leader.

“We kept wages up as high as we could, as long as we could using our peers as our guide and building upon each other.â€

Now that’s funny. Talk to Rick Dubinski about his “goose choking†technique back in 2000. You guys were never about using your peers as a guide to build on and you know it. Economic times were in full swing, UAL company profits were at an all time high and you guys were out to “get yoursâ€. Never mind long term sustainability. Guess what? The economy changed.

“I guess the difference between our relationship and your relationship is that our CEO knows better than to come after us for BELOW MARKET rates for the aircraft we fly even though we're in bankruptcy.â€

Uh…last I checked, UAL A320 base payrates are pretty much identical to those at JetBlue. In fact UAL is even less at the top of the Captain scale and that’s not even including the 150% of base pay that all JetBlue pilots receive for every hour flown over 70. Truth be told I'd say you actually get paid less than we do. Come on now, stop lowering the bar. Sound familiar? Geez.

“When the LCC's, including JetBlue reached "critical mass" in the very late 90's…â€

History lesson – JetBlue inaugurated service February 11, 2000 with one airplane. We have a long way to go before we reach as you say “critical massâ€. We are continuing to work on it however.


v1

 

[Busdrvr]

Now that’s funny. Talk to Rick Dubinski about his “goose chokingâ€￾ technique back in 2000. You guys were never about using your peers as a guide to build on and you know it

I see you are well read and have a complete understanding of where UAL's C2K numbers came from (Not)

The C2K numbers were derived from the pay numbers the DAL pilots were able to negotiate for the 777. That was the latest negotiated pay point. Decision 83 criteria was then used to get numbers for the other jets. The 747-400 was held a little lower than what they would have been, but were to "catch up" over the course of the next 5 years.

Never mind long term sustainability. Guess what? The economy changed.

The payscales at UAL were perfectly sustainable. The only thing that had to happen is they had to be matched. Unfortunately, there were too many self centered idiots in the idustry to allow that to happen....

Uh…last I checked, UAL A320 base payrates are pretty much identical to those at JetBlue. Truth be told I'd say you actually get paid less than we do. Come on now, stop lowering the bar. Sound familiar?

Then that would again confirm how ill-informed you are. First, This is precisely what we've been trying to tell you all along. Because YOU didn't slide our rates across the table to Dave, our company slide YOUR rates across the table to us. But then again, you may not have been able to compete against us with our rates, now you'll get to see how well you'll do when we have your's. So far, it ain't lookin good. To the rates specifically, does your's include retiree medical? LT disability? How many vacation days? How much sick leave? How many times can you upgrade to a new jet? What's you B-fund? C-fund? Additionally, UAL's rate is a blended rate. We pay the same thing to the 100 seat drivers. Do you? What would be the rate if you did given the same breakdown in jets between 100 and 150 seats? Well?

History lesson – JetBlue inaugurated service February 11, 2000 with one airplane. We have a long way to go before we reach as you say “critical massâ€￾. We are continuing to work on it however.

Funny, I'll bet you had to pay the same amount for gas on day one. Why should you pay less for crews?

 

[TechBoy]

Never mind long term sustainability. Guess what? The economy changed.

The payscales at UAL were perfectly sustainable. The only thing that had to happen is they had to be matched. Unfortunately, there were too many self centered idiots in the idustry to allow that to happen....

Strange. I thought it was supply and demand. Or don't basic economic principles apply when it comes to pilot labor?

 

[ualdriver]

Strange. I thought it was supply and demand. Or don't basic economic principles apply when it comes to pilot labor?

Yeah, it is supply and demand. I'll even use the words in a sentence. There's a large "supply" of JetBlue pilots who will work for Dave's "demand" of below market rates in the EMB 190. How's that for supply and demand?

 

[SVQLBA]

Never mind long term sustainability. Guess what? The economy changed.

The payscales at UAL were perfectly sustainable. The only thing that had to happen is they had to be matched. Unfortunately, there were too many self centered idiots in the idustry to allow that to happen....

This whole thread is very interesting but, with all due respect, Busdrvr and ualdriver, "sustainability" had nothing to do with whether other airlines matched your pilot payscales. That's classic "pattern bargaining" group think.

At UAL and the other majors, the pay rates were so high and, more importantly, the productivity was so low that the only way to make profits was to charge fares that were, basically, pure extortion. No wonder the customer base got pissed off and, in large measure, have happily walked over to WN and B6 when given a chance. UAL and co have certainly failed to show that their product allows them to extract anything more than a small revenue premium when faced with head-to-head competition. Just look at fares out of ORD on routes where WN competes out of MDW compared to routes where WN does not.

While you are busy comparing UAL to B6 payscale you should be comparing yourselves to WN -- currently the highest paying airline for most labor categories, but they can do it because of their productivity -- a concept that still seems to be anathema to large chunks of UAL. There were stories at the time of C2K of UAL pilots having so much free time that they had full-time second jobs (I think there was a quote from Edwardson about it.) Apocryphal maybe, but I don't think there's any data to show that UAL pilots were the most productive by any measure you choose.

You can pattern bargain all you want, but if you don't produce a product or service at a price the consumer feels is good value (note, that doesn't necessarily mean lowest fare), then someone else will always come in and take the business -- the pilot payscale is only one component in the whole equation. Look at the mess the Detroit auto industry is in now -- same basic issue.

You can't discuss pilot pay scales in isolation -- it's just one cog in a much bigger picture. The whole operating model (which drives productivity) and the whole customer/market side of the picture have to be taken into account. Any particular payscale may be "sustainable" or "unstainable" depending on all these other factors. It has nothing to do with pattern bargaining.

 

[SVQLBA]

Yeah, it is supply and demand. I'll even use the words in a sentence. There's a large "supply" of JetBlue pilots who will work for Dave's "demand" of below market rates in the EMB 190. How's that for supply and demand?

And why is there such a large supply of (more correctly) pilots who want to fly for jet blue? ALPA should look at themselves, the scope clause they negotiated, and the whole express/connection carrier business and dynamics that spawned. It didn't help either ALPA's industrial leverage, nor the ability of their "geese" to lay golden eggs. Not to mention the downsizing of their beloved legacy carriers has added to that "supply".

The US economy is going to keep growing, and air travel will keep growing. Plus there's a wave of retirements ongoing. So demand for pilot hiring will recover. Pilot payscales will come back up as a result. (Funnily enough, look at what's happening in India -- airlines are having to jack up rates to prevent pilots from jumping to other carriers.)

 

[ualdriver]

It was only extortion if you were a business traveller

And actually, with our new contracts (at UAL anyway), the only thing really limiting our productivity now is scheduling inefficiencies on the part of our company as our work rules are largely now Part 121 FAR's. As pilots, we don't control scheduling efficiency now- management does.

UAL pilots will NEVER be as efficient as SWA and most comparisons to SWA (such as pilot productivity) are tenuous at best. We're two entirely different airlines. For example, SWA has a single fleet, UAL (in effect) has a "3" aircraft fleet. Just guys moving forward (or getting bumped backward) and spending 6 weeks in training flying ZERO hours on the line drives our productivity numbers downward. That's one example of many.

SVQ, I'm all for free markets and giving the consumer what they want- in this case cheap tickets. But what is particularly annoying to those of us working in the industry, however, is when you have a relatively large and successful (and soon to be larger) airline, like JetBlue, who has already done enough to increase productivity in the legacy airline world, continue to set the bar for industry pay and work rules even lower. The specific examples of their doing so are listed in the above threads and are entirely unnecessary and continue an already deepening spiral. That's my point.

And actually, I can talk about pilot payscale in "relative" isolation because pilot costs are a large percentage of total labor costs, and labor costs are by far the largest controllable expense an airline has. And I'm having this discussion right now with other pilots. On the ramp, f/a, AMT forums right now all over the internet, I wouldn't be surprised if these respective work groups are having the same discussion.