Jetblue To Reconsider E190 Order

[CaptianBoomer]

Busdrvr:

For one thing, your name calling another individual who has a disability shows a lot about your character. Actually, David doesn't really consider ADD a disability, he uses it to his advantage.

Since you know nothing about David, other than what you read in the paper and hear thrown about the crew room, maybe you should do a little investigation of your own....

OT, David draws a $250,000 salary for running JB. Whatever the crewmembers donate to the Crewmember crisis fund (to help crewmembers in distress), he matches. Don't have actual numbers, but his salary has been damn near zero for the past few years. He is already rich, and could easily retire. He doesn't because he loves this business and this company. The CEO's of the airline business sans LUV and JB are all inbred hacks who didn't build the company....they inherited it and the mess they were and only look at one thing....how much $$$ can I shove in my pocket.

Back to your post. About those senior pilots. Why would they give a hoot about the 190 pay. None of them will ever have to fly it. Now you can #### about no union and no whatever. But it is no different than the B-scale at the other union shops, the C scale if you look at Metrojet and MidAtlantic, and the millions of dollars siphoned off the payrolls of the mainline carriers by these regional airlines who have grown by leaps and bounds at the mainline carriers expense. They have done a lot more damage to the payscales than an airline with 83 airplanes.

Boomer

 

[Dizel8]

Why are you paying for his poor business decision? Then again, why do the rest of us have to pay for it? Thanks a lot.... :angry:

How can the worlds second largest airline get away with paying its pilots as little for the bus, as some third rate wannabe?

Why are you paying for UALs poor decisions, why did you not walkout or go on strike?

 

[767jetz]

Wow! you've given me so much material to throw darts at I don't even know where to start! How about right here..

Busdrvr:
About those senior pilots. Why would they give a hoot about the 190 pay. None of them will ever have to fly it.

Now THAT speaks volumes about your type. This profession would really go down the tubes with more pilots like you. That's right, who cares about the junior guy, or anyone else in this industry for that matter? As long as I got mine. Nice attitude.

It doesn't surprise me though. Especially with your willingness to justify LOWER pay rates. (How noble of you considering it won't come out of your pocket. It's real easy to endorse other people's pay cuts, huh?:down: ) That sure is some strong Kool-aid they've been feeding you. Will you sing the same tune when Dave cuts your pay because he needs to bring the A320 CASM down to remain profitable?

When JB starts losing money and that happens, I'm sure the junior 190 guys will be happy to say, "Hey, take it from the 320 guys. Why should I give a hoot? I won't be flying one of those for a long time!"

Now on to the rest of your uninformed statements:

I would guarantee that if they had chosen the 318, it would pay 20% less as it has 20% fewer seats.

Actually, the 318 has about 30% fewr seats, at just over 100 depending on seat pitch. And since you can't answer any of my previous questions or give one example of an airline that pays different rates for a 318/319/320, I'll just assume that you concede the point and admit being wrong.

As busdrvr pointed out, your claims about pay scales are antiquated at best. Your formula dates back to the days of the Connie's and DC6's. And you also have not provided one example of an element of CASM that has a larger affect than crew cost. So the whole premise for your argument (ie: only idiots choose aircraft based on pilot pay) is hollow.

Even with the groups, the 319 paid the base rate and the 320 and 321 paid more. Not so any more. UAL may pay the same for the 757 and 767, however it wasn't that way pre BK at either.

How wrong you are again. With so many years in the "majors" I would think you would check your facts before spouting things from your rear end.

USAirways has always paid one rate for the Airbus. United ALWAYS (yes, even pre-BK) paid one rate for the 757 and all 4 versions of the 767, regardless of seat numbers. There was only a small override if you happened to fly an international leg. While we're at it, there was ALWAYS one rate for the 737-200, -300, and -500. Also UA's 319's & 320's. Same for USAirways 737-300 & 400's. Need I go on?

The company placed the pay on the 190 so that it would generate profits for the company.

And thank you for proving the point I tried to make from the start... ie: the pay on the 190 was a major factor in selecting the airplane. Even with the inherent higher cost of going with a different type aircraft over the 318, the plane was considered profitable (lower CASM) due to the lower pay.

And as Dizel8 points out...

Frontier only operates one specific type, so the issue is not germane, had jetblue operated only one, it would most likely be the same, you pointed this out yourself.

No one in the industry pays less for a 318/319/320. Of course, thanks to guys like you who graciously accept lower pay than anyone else in the industry, especially when it doesn't apply to you, Dave MAY have been able to get the 318 at 30% less pay than the 320. But by selecting the 190 he didn't even have to pick that fight.

Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

767jetz, over & out.



Oh, and one last question, Boomer...

Let's say Dave had selected the 318, and said that all pilots would be qualified on all aiplanes, but when you fly a 318 leg you get paid 30% less than when you fly a 320 leg. Would you have been so eager to justify that pay rate???

I think not.

 

[Busdrvr]

OT, David draws a $250,000 salary for running JB.

First, the 250K is a mere fraction of his real compensation, and second, if he expects you to only make half as much to fly a jet with half as many seats, then his salary should be based on the number of jets at his airline vs SWA and it's exec salaries. Hmmmm, I wonder why he didn't think of that, especially when it was a 5 jet airline....

For one thing, your name calling another individual who has a disability shows a lot about your character. Actually, David doesn't really consider ADD a disability, he uses it to his advantage.

Since you know nothing about David, other than what you read in the paper and hear thrown about the crew room, maybe you should do a little investigation of your own....

Unfortuantely, I know FAR more about Dave, his disabilities, and his ethics (or better yet what they should be) than you can imagine. Yes, he claims to be ADD. How convienient. Pick a disability that has no definative test, then claim to have it, then use it as an excuse for any poor behavior while telling the world how great you are for being a "success" despite your disability. Makes for a good newspaper article.... Maybe YOU should investigate.

He is already rich, and could easily retire. He doesn't because he loves this business and this company.

Because he loves the company.... How quaint. He loves establishing some of the lowest pay rates in the industry and destroying a profession. How quaint. He enjoys going far south of the border for his jets and the heavy mx, destroying another U.S. profession. How Quaint. He loves making one of the biggest scums of the earth even richer. How quaint. And we get to pay the tab. how quaint. pardon me while I go get a tissue.

how much $$$ can I shove in my pocket.

when you're paid in pocket change, not much.

About those senior pilots. Why would they give a hoot about the 190 pay. None of them will ever have to fly it. Now you can #### about no union and no whatever. But it is no different than the B-scale at the other union shops, the C scale if you look at Metrojet and MidAtlantic

I can smell the red hearing from here. Time to throw it out and get another one.
There is a HUGE differance between concessions and what you are doing. Let me explain it to you. Seniority has value. How much would a qualified pilot pay to have a seniority number that would put him on the payroll at any major flying 777's? When the company needs concessions to compete with the latest set of previously unemployable "team members" who have agreed to go to work for the newest Johnny Come lately airline, the company extracts some of that value back. do I like it? no. But it is FAR differant to take a temporary paycut to protect something worth $1,000,000 (the seniority number of a 50 YO 777 Capt), than to accept an $80 an hour Capt job at the latest punk outfit.

Your "83" jet airline has a much larger impact on pay and industry profitability than you apparently understand. I suggest you do some more of the suggested 'research', or better yet, prove us all wrong by getting your pay up to the top and show us all how your pay doesn't matter.

I really like your explaination of why you shouldn't care about 190 rates though. That was priceless. Let me ask you this though. Now that the wheels are falling off the wagon, and ADD Dave's proclamaition that he could make money at high fuel costs while no one else could is proving to be a big joke. Now that you no longer talk about on-time rates since your's hit the cellar. What are you going to do when the poor schmucks who bought into the "Dave loves me" BS all find themselves working at a stagnant airline trying to survive on 3rd year 190 F/O pay in NYC? What are you going to do when they demand higher pay? What are you going to do when they see a union as the only alternative because YOU won't stand up for them. Why should you care after all? Will they have trouble even talking to you about it since you'll surely be busy maxing out your OT. Or will you tell them to quit and go somewhere else so they don't mess up your apple cart? Will you then tell us how they all had it coming when year 5 comes along, and they don't get renewed?

You never answered the original questions. What should a 30 seat jet pay? what is your bottom line? What is simply too low a pay rate for the industry? give Davy a kiss for us.....

 

[Dizel8]

767 jetz,

I could not be sure, but I know of no airline that has separeate pay on the 18-19-20, but I do know, that UAL only recently put he 320 and the 73 on the same payscale. Nor should we forget, that UAL paid differently for the very same airplane, I am sure you remember that the Shuttle pay was different.

UAL also paid differently between the 10 and the 74, all those are very similar situations to what you now complain about wrt. jetblue.

As for the jetblue pilots accepting these wages, why don't you look in the mirror and tell me why the UAL pilots agreed to work for such low wages as jetblue. Why are the pilots of the worlds second largest airline, willing to do this? The Ch.11 argument does not work with me, you should have walked or negotiated better, but you didn't, yet now you blame it on the jetblue pilots. Maybe you should be mad at the U pilots for not walking, but now you want to blame it on the jetblue pilots.

The pilots of the worlds second largest airline, with a route network that spans the globe, strong alliances and a cohesive union was unable to get more in pay, yet you expect the pilots at an airline with less than 100 planes to fight the good fight for you, a fight you guys didn't even show for. Man, that is rich!

 

[Dizel8]

What should a 30 seat jet pay?

So I am certain, that today, you will approach UAL management to inform them, that they need to pay your feeder pilots more.

But we both know, that you don't care. There wouldn't be a peep out of you, if UAL managed to negotiate even lower rates for your feeder flying. As a matter of fact, FlyI broke off from UAL, because of what you were willing to pay for their services. Where was your outrage then, where is it now, considering what UAL feeder pilots are paid?

Maybe you should force UAL to put all UAL flying under your seniority list and then raise the pay for same. Put your money where your mouth is

 

[A330toEMB170]

couldnt agree more

 

[Busdrvr]

So I am certain, that today, you will approach UAL management to inform them, that they need to pay your feeder pilots more.

But we both know, that you don't care. There wouldn't be a peep out of you, if UAL managed to negotiate even lower rates for your feeder flying. As a matter of fact, FlyI broke off from UAL, because of what you were willing to pay for their services. Where was your outrage then, where is it now, considering what UAL feeder pilots are paid?

Maybe you should force UAL to put all UAL flying under your seniority list and then raise the pay for same. Put your money where your mouth is

UAL DOES need to pay it's feeders more. As does U, NWA, DAL, and AMR. I am unable to force UAL to pay more if the feeder pilots aren't willing to band together and DEMAND higher pay for ALL of them. UAL can't pay more for feed than DAL does. THAT'S THE POINT. This industry has become a commodity industry. People won't pay a premium for gas from exxon, nor will they pay a premium for flight crews. Wages are set by the LEAST common denominator. As to FLYI, they took a BIGGER paycut to break with UAL than they would have to have stayed. Another bunch of suckers buying some CEO's line of giant killing BS only to find out it was a just BS. It happens quicker at some places, but it does happen.

As to my money and my mouth, I have. Ref my post above, my seniority number has little value, and I haven't had to "give it up" to pursue other options. IMO, UAL's rates ARE too low. I refuse to work for them (I don't think the wife would appreciate a 6 figure PAYCUT). Needless to say, I'm bypassing recall....

 

[767jetz]

767 jetz,

I could not be sure, but I know of no airline that has separeate pay on the 18-19-20, but I do know, that UAL only recently put he 320 and the 73 on the same payscale. Nor should we forget, that UAL paid differently for the very same airplane, I am sure you remember that the Shuttle pay was different.

UAL also paid differently between the 10 and the 74, all those are very similar situations to what you now complain about wrt. jetblue.

Dizel,

The new 320/737 (or LCO pay as it's refered to in house) is new. And since I never flew Shuttle I can't quote pay rates, but I do know that the pay was VERY close and much of the gig there was work rules and hourly caps.

And let's please be clear here. I am not "complaining" about JB 190 pay rates. I'll leave that fight to guys who fly 170's and CRJ-700's. I'm simply stating that a large reason Dave picked the 190 over the next obvious choice (the 318) was because he could pay the pilots much less, much easier than if he selected the 318. My point is that picking the 318 and then trying to pay them 30-40% less than the 320 guys would have opened up a can of worms.

The rest of the discussion evolved from a Kool-Aid drinking pilot who practically claimed I was high for suggesting such a conspriracy. Remeber his comment, "What kind of idiot, orders a brand new jet with all the complexities of putting it on the certificate, proving tests, parts supplies, pilot training costs....you get the point don't you......because of pilot pay creep?"

As for for looking in the mirror, please re-read busdrvr's last post. There is a huge difference between temporarily giving up some pay, and agreeing to work for substandard wages just to "get yours."

UA pilots have always raised the bar when we had the leverage, and will do so again in the future. UA pilots have always stood up for the junior guys on the property. Unfortunately in BK we had no leverage, and this industry is cyclical. JB pilots had leverage when their company was profitable, but squandered the opportunity. Why were they not adamant about raising the bar and sharing in the spoils of the company's success? Instead they welcome lower pay, especially for the junior guys. BIG DIFFERENCE.

We all know that we are always chasing the lowest common denominator. Until very recently that lowest denominator was JB, regarless of their relative size. Now everyone's pay is decending to JB rates so companies can compete (there's that CASM again). And JB is on the verge of losing money.

Anyway, as I said, this is all very stimulating conversation. But this thread is about the selection of the 190 by JB. And I still stand by my original observation that pilot pay had a huge role in the selection of an aircraft, since by nature, pilot pay has a large affect on CASM.

 

[Dizel8]

Hey Bus, I am happy for you and yes, I would tend to agree with your wife, although don't tell her I said that

As for the feeders, we both know UAL will whipsaw them to death and there really is no recourse for their pilots.

While the 190 is bigger than some feeders, it will be used on many of the same routes, hence it needs to be competetive, particularily since, as we both know, it will pobably go up against carriers willingly losing millions to protect marketshare.

I think it disingenous, that you feel jetblue pilots should be able to command industry leading wages, considering the size of the company and the low age. SWA did not achieve this, nor did UAL after the ESOP, that is untill much later in the game.

I for one, will give it a year or more, hopefully by then the industry and the cost of fuel will have settled a bit. If by then, the company has reached decent profitability, then it certainly would be appropiate to raise the issue more strongly.

After all, isn't that really the plan of ALPA at UAL, live to fight another day, with emphasis on live?

 

[Dizel8]

767 jetz,

I disagree with your assertion, that the reason for selcting the 190 was pilot pay. I think the reason was, that the 190 IS a better airplane for its intended mission, certainly more so than the more exspensive 318. The 318 is not selling well, it is expensive both in aqusition and in operation, it weighs more, it burns more fuel, needs longer runways etc, etc.

"There is a huge difference between temporarily giving up some pay, and agreeing to work for substandard wages just to "get yours."

Is there really? I think it is a blurry line, which you and I disagree on. You gave up a lot for the ESOP trying to save the company, you have given up a lot this time, trying to save the company. I don't blame you, I am sure I would have done the same, after all, I am sure you hope to recover some of what you gave up.

Joining jetblue, I was also planning on getting a payback and an increase in wages. Well, we did right after 9/11, although it would have been very easy for the company to say no, after all, UAL management is always blaming 9/11. I am optimistic that the future will see raises both for the 190 and the 320, however, things in this business being what they are, who knows.

I have no problem with the UAL guys and gals, call quite a few of them friends, however, to say that UAL pilots have always fought the good fight or always stood up for the juniors would require some rather rose colored glasses. Now mind you, before you take it the wrong way, the very same could be said for all pilot groups.

You may diasgree, but honestly, I think you and I are more alike than you may wish to think.

 

[767jetz]

767 jetz,

You may diasgree, but honestly, I think you and I are more alike than you may wish to think.

Fair enough. IMO the 318 could have been aquired on the cheap for exactly the reason you mentioned. No on else wants them. As essentially the same airplane as the 320, again IMO, there would be many cost savings over the 190. With fleet commonality comes many advantages, not the least of which is crew utilization.

I've never directly compared the performance of the 2 a/c side by side, but I would venture an educated guess that fuel consumption, TO & Landing performance, & weight are only fractionally higher for the 318.

We seem to agree that the 318 would/should pay the same as the 320. So IMO the lower CASM of the 190, and hence the reason it would be profitable in certain markets that the 318 would not, is not because of a slight efficiency advantage or a cost-of-aquisition advantage, but more a labor cost advantage.

As for the pending raises at JB, I honestly hope it happens. A step in the right direction by anyone with the leverage to do so would help this whole profession greatly. But with earnings pressure on JB right now, I'm not so sure that is in the cards any time soon.

And FYI, the comment I made about "getting yours" was specifically directed toward guys like Boomer who say they don't care what the junior guys get paid because he'll never have to fly that plane anyway. By his own admission he just doesn't "give a hoot." If the 318 came to JB instead of the 190, and Boomer were asked to accept 30% less pay for every leg he flies a 318 instead of a 320, I bet his tune would change.

Anyway, this is all really acedemic since the choice was made and the 190's are on the property. Time will tell how it all works out.

Peace,
767jetz

 

[v1rotate]

UA pilots have always raised the bar when we had the leverage, and will do so again in the future. Unfortunately in BK we had no leverage, and this industry is cyclical. JB pilots had leverage when their company was profitable, but squandered the opportunity. Why were they not adamant about raising the bar and sharing in the spoils of the company's success?

This attitude sounds very familiar. Let's not forget the comments made by former UAL MEC Chairman Rick Dubinski back in 2000 when he was quoted saying "We don't want to kill the golden goose. We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg".

Hmmm...that worked

 

[767jetz]

CaptainBoomer... Paging Captain Boomer?...

I'm still waiting for an answer.

We already know that you don't give a hoot when something affects the junior guys.

I would like to know if you would be willing to accept 30% less pay for each leg you fly on the 318, if the 318 was chosen over the 190 and all pilots were cross-utilized???

 

[justaumechanic]

You are in error about the US Airways Airbus.

Before the massive contract changes US Airways paid
a premium for flight crews on the A321. The A320 and the A319 were the same rate..

So your never comment was slightly wrong.