JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[swamt]

Agree.

The fact the Members will need to ingest all these changes, and yes there will be roadshows, it will be very challenging to overcome the initial sentiment of negativity. That sentiment may be emotionally driven, but it could be tempered if only the information was flowing rather than being practically non-existent.

Change is often seen as a negative just because it is different. The concern is being able to breakthrough with the information in a manner it will be considered on its merits and not immediately discounted because it is different than what they know.

And what I don't get is he says they are updating the IAM membership very well, why not the TWU side? What does the TWU have to hide? Ingesting all the changes will in fact be overwhelming for a lot of folks and most will be and remain confused and be forced to vote on something they just don't fully understand until it hits them square in the face. Just look at the last update, he states there will be lost jobs and positions, it may not be yours but there will be lost jobs. If you have lost jobs and/or positions is that not a concession? They been saying ILJCBA not concessionary JCB. I predict at least 3 more years NY'er, nothing in 2018 anyway.

 

[WeAAsles]

And what I don't get is he says they are updating the IAM membership very well, why not the TWU side? What does the TWU have to hide? Ingesting all the changes will in fact be overwhelming for a lot of folks and most will be and remain confused and be forced to vote on something they just don't fully understand until it hits them square in the face. Just look at the last update, he states there will be lost jobs and positions, it may not be yours but there will be lost jobs. If you have lost jobs and/or positions is that not a concession? They been saying ILJCBA not concessionary JCB. I predict at least 3 more years NY'er, nothing in 2018 anyway.

3 more years? Wow. Can’t be. We all know AMFA will set the record in the next few years, now don’t we.

The nasty little secret you can’t say out loud, lol.

 

[Jester]

Explain to me the "gimmick" part about being able to save, collect interest and then spend the money tax free.

The creation of HSA's is 100% better than a world that does not allow this, regardless of your family circumstances.

Some families may not be able to max out an HSA, but you know what, there's never a bad time to start good saving habits, even if it's a small percentage of your income.

I brought this up because of all the machinations over LAA health insurance.
You know what, it isn't bad if you use the tools they give you to save on health costs.

Read what I said... I didn't say HSAs were always a bad idea, in fact, I said that within limited circumstances they make a lot of sense. I call them a "gimmick" insofar as they are beneficial to but a limited group of people while the GOP will tout their creation as some huge break through in providing healthcare access, substantial cost savings, or the prevention of medical related bankruptcies to the general public.

The idea of "good saving habits" with HSAs won't come to fruition if one has a chronic condition requiring frequent doctor's visits and money would be better invested into a 401K or IRA.

 

[NYer]

And what I don't get is he says they are updating the IAM membership very well, why not the TWU side? What does the TWU have to hide? Ingesting all the changes will in fact be overwhelming for a lot of folks and most will be and remain confused and be forced to vote on something they just don't fully understand until it hits them square in the face. Just look at the last update, he states there will be lost jobs and positions, it may not be yours but there will be lost jobs. If you have lost jobs and/or positions is that not a concession? They been saying ILJCBA not concessionary JCB. I predict at least 3 more years NY'er, nothing in 2018 anyway.

Well, it may be easier to give updates to the IAM side since they're fighting to keep their medical, scope and pension as it currently stands. That message of, "we're fighting to keep..." is easier than an update about gaining and not falling back on language.

I also have been sharing that it is my belief the Company wanted the NMB in the talks to try and dissuade the Association (mainly the IAM) from dragging the talks into Section 6 in their belief of either protecting their medical or having a Mediator step in for that protection during mediation. With the NMB in the talks, they can hint at the fact that process will bear no additional fruit that what can be harvested now.

 

[AANOTOK]

Hey NYer, normally when you are in negotiations, WE, US means the UNION, and THEY, THEM means the COMPANY. But in this wonderful world of the Association replace union with TWU and change company to IAM.
As a matter of fact, I've come to the conclusion that the IAM actually frowns upon the TWU and it's picketing. As mentioned here, some may even think it's detrimental to the negotiations. Remember, what you said a while back,
negotiations are about getting the best contract for the "MAJORITY" of it's members, well, that is impossible with two unions disagreeing and looking out for it's members only. I don't care how many times you say without the Association talks wouldn't have gone any quicker, yes, they would have and probably a bit smoother.

 

[Steve Walegir]

Individual items such as the low hanging fruit of holidays is easy to see as a positive. However, the totality of the JCBA and the abundant changes within the already agreed TA is something wholly different. As a standalone item, most would embrace the holiday scenario you shared, but the JCBA encompasses much more and the totality of that is what will be considered.

That assessment becomes much more difficult when it is thrust upon us in one document dump. It may be challenging to overcome the initial negativity of those changes some didn't even consider would be taking place.

That assessment becomes much more difficult when it is thrust upon us in one document dump. It may be challenging to overcome the initial negativity of those changes some didn't even consider would be taking place.

The amount of time it will take to properly inform the membership using this philosophy will be enormous. Thus causing any vote when if or when it finally happens months after the full TA is reached thus delaying any implementation. Who on the twu side made the decision that this was the right course of action to take? The presidents there have an obligation to fairly represent and inform the membership. Dumping everything all at once while more informed updates are coming from the IAM side imo doesn't fulfill the obligation. It's like any given White House, when there is news they really are trying to not get a bunch of exposure on they throw it in the trash for the late Friday night dump.

 

[WeAAsles]

That assessment becomes much more difficult when it is thrust upon us in one document dump. It may be challenging to overcome the initial negativity of those changes some didn't even consider would be taking place.

The amount of time it will take to properly inform the membership using this philosophy will be enormous. Thus causing any vote when if or when it finally happens months after the full TA is reached thus delaying any implementation. Who on the twu side made the decision that this was the right course of action to take? The presidents there have an obligation to fairly represent and inform the membership. Dumping everything all at once while more informed updates are coming from the IAM side imo doesn't fulfill the obligation. It's like any given White House, when there is news they really are trying to not get a bunch of exposure on they throw it in the trash for the late Friday night dump.

I HIGHLY doubt any IAM Negotiators are giving explicit details of items that have been TA’d. I think you read what CB said wrongly.

Besides outside of the lousy kept secret of the CS and OT changes what else do you expect will cause a major uproar over all the other items of good to override?

I’m curious?

 

[WeAAsles]

Besides Steve when in your career did you ever know a Negotiations where they informed you of details on items TA’d before a final full TA was ready to be sent out to us?

And even I think the overall membership will be intelligent enough to figure it out. (Yes that came from me)

I’m not concerned at all in the slightest even one iota tiny little bit.

 

[NYer]

Hey NYer, normally when you are in negotiations, WE, US means the UNION, and THEY, THEM means the COMPANY. But in this wonderful world of the Association replace union with TWU and change company to IAM.
As a matter of fact, I've come to the conclusion that the IAM actually frowns upon the TWU and it's picketing. As mentioned here, some may even think it's detrimental to the negotiations. Remember, what you said a while back,
negotiations are about getting the best contract for the "MAJORITY" of it's members, well, that is impossible with two unions disagreeing and looking out for it's members only. I don't care how many times you say without the Association talks wouldn't have gone any quicker, yes, they would have and probably a bit smoother.

It may seem that way because the perception is that these talks have taken longer than they should, to me that's a flawed view.

The assumption is that without the IAM the TWU would be able to get to the meat and potatoes of the matter. The anomaly in that equation is the Company, and they would exploit the two CBA's to get the best language of the two and in doing so would significantly slow down the process as they allow the friction within the two groups to grow and create pressure upon on the TWU.

Aside from that, the assumption of the IAM not being involved because they are not "the representative body, of the whole is somewhat misunderstood. The IAM would not have been whisked away to some corner of that barn, they would still be involved and I suspect the Company would treat them as an ally in order to get favorable language from the TWU.

Before any of that, the assumption is the TWU would win a representational vote because we have more numbers. However, in that equation, you seldom hear anyone acknowledge the dismal participation in TWU voting. The IAM, on the other hand, will be voting to maintain what we have already lost so their participation would seem to be primed for a higher turnout. It wouldn't be a foregone conclusion that a representational vote would automatically be won by the TWU.

 

[NYer]

That assessment becomes much more difficult when it is thrust upon us in one document dump. It may be challenging to overcome the initial negativity of those changes some didn't even consider would be taking place.

The amount of time it will take to properly inform the membership using this philosophy will be enormous. Thus causing any vote when if or when it finally happens months after the full TA is reached thus delaying any implementation. Who on the twu side made the decision that this was the right course of action to take? The presidents there have an obligation to fairly represent and inform the membership. Dumping everything all at once while more informed updates are coming from the IAM side imo doesn't fulfill the obligation. It's like any given White House, when there is news they really are trying to not get a bunch of exposure on they throw it in the trash for the late Friday night dump.

It's easier for the IAM to come out and say what is happening from their perspective since they are in protection mode and they may feel they're getting language that is favorable to them. The TWU side has had a bunch of turnovers so it is difficult to ascertain how the decision process has been structured. In any event, the lack of information may become an issue when the JCBA TA comes out and the hope the contents are considered rather than Members making an emotional decision based on their anger due to large changes that caught them off guard.

 

[Steve Walegir]

Besides Steve when in your career did you ever know a Negotiations where they informed you of details on items TA’d before a final full TA was ready to be sent out to us?

And even I think the overall membership will be intelligent enough to figure it out. (Yes that came from me)

I’m not concerned at all in the slightest even one iota tiny little bit.

I'm not saying you're wrong. However we no longer live in the 60's 70's 80's 90's. The way information is shared today is vastly different. Just because that's how it's always been doesn't make it right for today's day and age. I'm not saying the IAM is getting into great detail with updating their members but it's seemingly more then what the twu is doing. The changes coming will a complete new book, the pages I'm sure you've memorized will be no more. Dumping it all at once is wrong imo. If they have a TA on something now then try something new and start explaining it now. If it changes then explain the changes. This negioation has gone on nearly 2 full years, that's time that could be used to educate. I seem to think that only a local president goes to negioations, leaving the rest of the local board behind to educate the membership. Again just because that's how it's always been done doesn't cut it anymore. When you use that statement on other scenarios in life you tend to sound ignorant (not you but the person saying it)
How about we light up a cigarette in the last row of first class on your next flight? Why now, that's what was always done

 

[Traymark]

The idea of "good saving habits" with HSAs won't come to fruition if one has a chronic condition requiring frequent doctor's visits and money would be better invested into a 401K or IRA.

Absolutely, 100% Incorrect.
HSA money has triple tax advantage. The other 2 do not let you spend the money untaxed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/financ...x-out-your-hsa-before-your-401k/#4f86349f75ac

https://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2016/05/28/why-an-hsa-is-even-better-than-a-roth-ira.aspx

https://www.thebalance.com/hsa-vs-ira-you-might-be-surprised-2388481


"With a traditional IRA or 401(k), if you are eligible, you get a tax deduction for the amount you contribute to the plan. The money grows tax-deferred, and then you pay taxes when you withdraw it in retirement.

With an HSA, you get the same tax deduction when you contribute money, but when you use the money in your HSA for medical expenses and qualified health insurance premiums, it comes back out tax-free."

 

[Steve Walegir]

It's easier for the IAM to come out and say what is happening from their perspective since they are in protection mode and they may feel they're getting language that is favorable to them. The TWU side has had a bunch of turnovers so it is difficult to ascertain how the decision process has been structured. In any event, the lack of information may become an issue when the JCBA TA comes out and the hope the contents are considered rather than Members making an emotional decision based on their anger due to large changes that caught them off guard.

True. But in either case they claim to be sharing more information. But whatever, it is what it is. I don't envy you. How are you preparing to explain this whole dump? Not exactly the happiest people on earth there in Miami, if you don't have a Costco membership yet you should get one for the industrial size bottle of ibuprofen you're gonna need.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm not saying you're wrong. However we no longer live in the 60's 70's 80's 90's. The way information is shared today is vastly different. Just because that's how it's always been doesn't make it right for today's day and age. I'm not saying the IAM is getting into great detail with updating their members but it's seemingly more then what the twu is doing. The changes coming will a complete new book, the pages I'm sure you've memorized will be no more. Dumping it all at once is wrong imo. If they have a TA on something now then try something new and start explaining it now. If it changes then explain the changes. This negioation has gone on nearly 2 full years, that's time that could be used to educate. I seem to think that only a local president goes to negioations, leaving the rest of the local board behind to educate the membership. Again just because that's how it's always been done doesn't cut it anymore. When you use that statement on other scenarios in life you tend to sound ignorant (not you but the person saying it)
How about we light up a cigarette in the last row of first class on your next flight? Why now, that's what was always done

Steve while I agree with you to a level of about 95% , the 5% where you lose me is that because they are still negotiating everything is still subject to change. Slim likelihood perhaps but I have been told it does occur.

You and I both know also that there is a ton of items in a CBA that people never even bother to look at or read unless it directly effects them or you want to be a Union official and enjoy the learning process.

But I’ve always agreed that the Association updates should be a lot more in depth. Not everyone agrees with that though and some feel there shouldn’t be any updates at all. Seriously.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Rat
The question was asked a couple of weeks ago when we were briefing the break rooms: " what was the negotiating team going to do if the company demanded we go to the LAA insurance, and took catering jobs in clt?"
This of course would pretty much make it a cost negative contract for our LUS members. Especially giving up of jobs. My answer to that questions was that we will not bring out a cost negative contract to our members. And that nobody on the negotiating team expects the letter that the company put out to be their final offer. And then I did state that I for one, would push things to section 6 before I brought out a cost negative contract to our members. But that I was only 1 person on the team. And I stand by that statement, that I would choose to go to section 6 before I would bring back a cost negative contract. Now that comment has been turned and twisted by some who choose to spin spin and spin some more, into that we stated that we wanted to stall negotiations to go into section 6.
This statement of course was never made.

And the IAM negotiators make no more money because we are in negotiations. Other than our daly per diem which ranges between 70-80 dollars a day depending on the city we are in. But the twu side would also get this same per diem.
Nobody wants to stall negotions. The IAM side is also ready and willing to meet anytime anywhere. The twu side now has the lead in the association. They can schedule dates whenever they want. But you have to get the company to agree. So I would tell people to figure out the common denominator in the scheduling. It's not the association.
Some people feel the scheduling is the company pushing back due to the info picketing. I'm not sure I agree with that. Just telling you what I've heard.

I hope that a " cost positive" contract is brought back but as long as our iam leadership stands down on joint solidarity actions it truly does show as a stall. Not sure what you think is going to change as the company eats popcorn watching the pilots picket with the twu and watches the iam on its sideline. You will never get a cost positive contract when the c ok mpany doesnt see the iam alongside the twu. Thats a stall. Hopefully, the iam leadership joins in future rallies otherwise we will be in section 6 for years to come. Smh.